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Tangent from this thread.

Custodes and Harlequins are, in the lore, excessively powerful. A Custodian Guard is 45 PPM to an Intercessor's 18 PPM, so valued at more than twice as good but not quite three times as good as a baseline Marine. A Harlequin Player is 15 PPM, while a basic Guardian Defender is 10 PPM. But obviously, an army of Custodes or Harlequins where they were 150 PPM would be ridiculous. 10 Armigers and a big Knight is a reasonable army. 10 Troupe members and a Master is not so much.
So, instead of having them be their own armies, have them be a slot-in to Imperial/Eldar armies, similar to Assassins or Inquisitors.

General idea for Harlequins:

Troupe


Troupe Master


Shadowseer


Points and abilities are preliminary. I have not run math on them.
Shadowseer makes your Harlequins much more resileint, while the Troupe Master makes them killier.
Maximum of 550 points spent on Harlequins, with a full five Players and both Characters.

I'm flattered to have inspired this! It's a little late at the moment, but I look forward to reading through this and sharing my thoughts tomorrow.

not familiar with harlequins, so can't speak to the rules so far, but the idea of "lore accurate" custodes where a single model costs 500 points is very amusing to me

Some very cool stuff here, and we're definitely on the same page in a lot of ways. Some initial thoughts:

* These clowns might actually hit a little too hard for my personal taste. I think I'd be inclined to tone down their offense a little and instead lean into trickery/disruption slightly more. This is, of course, extremely subjective.

* As you mentioned, points are preliminary. However, I think the troupe master is probably too cheap. The troupes cost about as much as an Eversor and have a pretty comparable damage output with slightly worse defense. But the troupe master is rocking 8 attacks, hitting on 2s, potentially wounding on 2s, all but ignoring power armor, and doing gravis-slaying damage with each attack; all for only a few points more. That said, the TM feels a bit much to me in general and is definitely the main thing I'd be tempted to tone down.

* Having the troupes break up into a bunch of lone operatives is a cool idea. That said, if you *were* to power down these units a bit, I could see these guys working as a conventional squad that essentially serves as a focus for the abilities of the shadowseer and TM. So shadowseer keeps the troupes alive and/or uses them as a focus for debuffing enemies near them while she stays safely away from the melee, and the TM coordinates the troupes, unlocking special totally-not-stratagems maneuvers.

* Wondering if it would make more sense to have a higher minimum number of troupes. Seems weird to potentially have a shadowseer and a troupe master both leading a single normal clown.

* No DJ or solitaire? Do you think there's room to keep the bikes and skimmers, or does the premise of assassin-style-clowns kind of make those units a no-go?

* Harlequin Weapons: At the risk of being overcomplicated, I'd be tempted to swap out this special rule for a return to having discrete, quirky melee weapons. Mostly for flavor's sake. Especially if these guys are going to be lone operatives, having a single quirky weapon to remember for each model seems doable. Off the top of my head:
-- Kiss: S4, no-or-poor AP, but damage is Dd6 vs non-vehicles representing the string blender effect.
-- Caress: S4, AP-3, D1. Lethal hits. It's the consistent damage dealer, able to slice through armor.
-- Embrace: Hear me out; melee blast. More attacks the more enemies there are to get tangled up in the monomolecular strings. I also like the idea of this preventing fallbacks similar to the old shardnet rule for wyches; seems like a nice way to let the clowns disrupt the enemy without necessarily insta-gibbing them.
-- Sword: Could be the middle-of-the-road option, or you could make the wielder -1 to hit in the Fight phase (because parry).

I feel like having discrete rules like this helps give the clowns more individual personality, and your opponent will feel like you're working around specific strengths/weaknesses rather than just choosing the perfect eff-you rule each turn.

* Pivotal Roles: Lots of cool stuff here. Wondering if it makes sense/would be too restrictive to require all characters use the Dark/Light/Twilight trait. I.e. If your TM is using the Twilight rule, your Shadowseer must also take the Twilight rule. Probably a bad idea. Reduces customization too much and potentially interferes with quirky choices like taking 3 TMs and no other clowns. The ability to have everyone "match" their pivotal roles is there for those who want it.

* Choreographer of War, Queen of Shards, and Veiled King: I worry about these rules making already killy models even more killy. Each of your baseline troupers is already comparable to an Eversor in damage output. Letting each of those pseudo-eversors reroll wounds and giving them DW on top of it is pretty huge. Veiled King letting the TM wound basically anything that isn't a monster or vehicle on a 2+ on top of his already scary AP-3 and D3 feels likely to get some unenthused stares. I also worry that you're stacking enough similar special rules in one place that it might irritate opponents. Like, you've already got the special rule from harlie weapons, plus choreographer, plus a pivotal role rule. I'm picturing opponent's smiles fading and eyes glazing over as you walk them through all the buffs you have stacked on top of what is basically an Eversor statline to begin with.

* Hallucinogen Grenade Launcher: Rolling a bunch fo 2d6 tests back-to-back seems like it could be mildly annoying. Maybe make it a single battleshock test modified by the number of hits you land, and then inflict a number of Mortals equal to the number by which the test was failed? This is faster to resolve and has the potential to spike on damage.

* I like all of the Seer's Pivotal Roles. However, I worry that because they're all defensive in nature and chosen during army creation, you're basically gambling on which one will be (the most) effective in your next game. To bypass this, maybe allow for different kinds of "protection" or don't have them all be defensive in nature. So examples of multiple types of protection:
--Something like one of the three you have currently; probably Shield From Harm as it's the most generally useful. Targeted defense that works against all enemies.
--Something to let harlies instantly move/advance in the enemy movement phase (sort of like the Phantasm strat). All-or-nothing defense that will offer more protection the better you position yourself.
-- A psychic attack that blinds enemies hit to make them especially bad at shooting for a turn (picturing the old Daggers of Light power). Targeted defense that protects really well against a single target.

And if you did something similar to the above, you've not only diversified the types of defense so that they compete less directly, but you've also given yourself a mobility-boosting option and an offense-boosting option for those who want their shadowseers to be more directly damaging.

* Would you be opposed to me pitching some statline sfor other harlie units and/or some possible alternative approaches to agent-ifying harlies?

I just wanted to say the Death jester needs to have much stronger rules than a vindicare assassin. Thousands of years old eldar sniper needs to beat supid humie.

Tbf, it's entirely possible that a given Death Jester is new to the job, and being a Death Jester doesn't imply a past history of wielding long-ranged weapons. Unlike something like an exarch who is, by definition, extremely experienced at what they do.

So, I think I'm going to switch it up slightly-Troupes can take one to six models, and if you take at least four, one can be upgraded to a Troupe Master or Shadowseer.

DJ and Solitaire weren't included because I didn't feel like doing that much work when I made this post. Could easily include them in the "One model may be upgraded to a..." list.

I do like the ideas of different weapons, though I'd probably let them take two weapons each and just have to pick one at the start of the fight phase.

Note that they're ALL Epic Heroes, so you cannot take more than one of each.

Choreographer Of War is a Pivotal Role. It's not something separate.

And absolutely pitch more ideas! This isn't "ME, MINE, MINE!" this is a project that I'd be thrilled if people were excited about and wanted to use.

So here's where my brain goes. There are probably some bad ideas in the mix, but here's my half-proposal-half-wishlist:

WEAPONS
* Shuriken Pistols: as the index.

* Fusion Pistols: as the index, but S10.

* Neurodisruptor: 12”, Assault d6, Torrent, Anti-infantry/swarm/beast/mounted 2+, S5, AP-2, D1, a unit carrying a neurodisruptor cannot be overwatched.

Stealing most of the statline from the calidus's neuroshredder. Swapped Precision for the no-overwatch rule. My thinking being that you're using this thing to temporarily scramble nearby brains to keep your squad alive/sew disruption.

* Harlequin Blade: A5, S3, AP0, D1, wielder’s invuln save becomes 3+ in the Fight phase. Because parrying.

Kiss: A4, S4, AP-1, Dd6, attacks made against Vehicles are treated as Damage 1.

Damage stat is a nod to the 7th edition version's insta-death rule. It's more tricky to use, but a successful attack blends the enemy's insides.

* Caress: A4, S4, AP-3, D1, Lethal Hits.

It's a power field that you can shape with different hand gestures meaning it's really good at bypassing armor.


* Embrace: A d6, S3, AP-1, Blast, Sustained Hits(1). When an enemy within engagement range of the wielder attempts to fall back, they must first make a Battleshock test.

Ninja wires. The anti-horde option. Battleshock test means the enemy won't be able to fall back if they fail it unless they make a disordered fallback (or whatever it's called). Test also means that there's a chance this won't work so that you're not automatically removing options from the enemy.

TROUPES:
Per the index with the following changes:
* Squad size becomes 3-5.
* Each model has a harlequin blade and shuriken pistol.
* Any model may replace their harlequin blade with a kiss, caress, or embrace.
* 1 model may replace their pistol with a fusion pistol or neuro disruptor.
* If the unit contains 5 models, 2 models may replace their pistols instead.
* Lead player isn't a thing. If you want a "lead player," take the Troupe Master. This means there's no power sword option for the troupes.

TROUPE MASTER:
Per the index with the following changes:
* Price probably needs to go up to about 75 given that you're unlocking another pistol and my versions of the harlie weapons are a bit stronger. Plus the special rule changes.

* Instead of the generic harlequin's special weapon option, may take a kiss, caress, or embrace. Bump the Attacks stat listed above up by 2 when taken on a TM.

* Sword option gains a rule that improves the TM's invulnerable save to 3+ during the Fight phase.

* Lose Cegorach's Favor.

*Choreographer of War changes to:
During your Command phase, select one of the following. All harlequin units gain the selected benefit until the end of the turn.
-- Elligible to shoot and/or charge during a turn in which they advance or fall back.
-- Units benefiting from this rule may choose to gain Fly and change their Movement to 20". A unit that does so may not charge this turn. (Super jump for getting into position and running away.)

At the end of your opponent's Command phase, select one of the following. All harlequin units gain the selected benefit until the end of the turn.
--The unit may move d6" immediately prior to the reinforcement step.
--The unit may use the Heroic Intervention stratagem for 0CP even if the stratagem has already been used this phase.

SHADOW SEER:
Per the index with the following changes:
* Gain the option for a fusion pistol. Because why not.

* Lose Fog of Dreams. Replace with Veil of Tears (Psychic): While this unit is on the table, all harlequin units have the Lone Operative rule.

* Lose Twilight Pathways. Gain Phantasmancy (Psychic): During your command phase, you may use one of the following:

--Gruesome Illusion: Target one harlequin unit anywhere on the table. If it is a trouper unit, return d3 slain models to the unit. If it is not a trouper unit, restore d3 lost wounds. (Those guys didn't die; that was just an illusion!)

--Dramatic Entrance: Harlequin units currently in strategic reserves gain Deepstrike.

-- Pyrotechnics: Gain the Pyrotechnics weapon until your next command phase.

Range 12", BS2+, A d3 (blast), S4, AP-2, D1, a unit hit by this attack treats the the WS and BS of its weapons as 1 worse until the start of your next command phase.

DEATH JESTER
After thinking about it, I actually think the DJ is right where he ought to be. His special rules make him capable of shutting down overwatch, sniping key models, or simply tossing out some decent firepower to thin the enemy. His survivability and price tag are right about where they should be too.He already has Lone Operative, but taking a TM or SS potentially give you some more flexibility in how you use him.

SOLITAIRE:
So I'm kind of torn because like the DJ, the Solitaire probably does his job reasonably well as-is. There's a little anti-synergy with the TM , but that's perhaps appropriate for the guy who famously doesn't hang out with others. I'm also tempted to replace his weapons with my version of the kiss and caress (with a much higher Attacks stat.) However, I feel like that might actually be either less good or situationally too-good compared to what he already has, plus Precision on this guy is fun.

I kind of think we can just leave him as is. Maybe create some pivotal roles to swap Blitz out with? As with the DJ, taking a TM or Seer will open up some extra options with how this guy behaves.

STAR/SKY/VOID WEAVERS
I feel like these can stay as-is. Maybe rework the rules above to only buff harlequin infantry specifically. The vehicles are large/flashy enough that they probably shouldn't benefit from Veil of Tears, but they're also respectably useful as-is. The Star Weaver is still useful as a transport too. Sky Weavers are already powerful and expensive enough to kind of fit the rough power level I'm going for with these guys. The Void Weaver is fine. Not amazing, but fine. If I were to adjust it, I'd be tempted to do something flavorful with the prism gun and maybe change the haywire gun to be less killy and more of a debuffer for vehicles (changing its job to one of protecting the clowns from enemy big guns while they deal with the chaffe.)