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Made in se
Stubborn Hammerer





Sweden

This thread may primarily be meant for those who, like me, remain skeptical about all the new narrative developments from the Indomitus Crusade forward. But ultimately it is an open invitation for all enjoyers of Warhammer 40'000 background to reflect and brainstorm and add their own suggestions.

New background developments for Warhammer 40'000 from circa 2017 onward has seen narrative taking precedence over static setting. As someone endlessly intrigued by the richness of the decrepit and depraved themes of the static setting, this would seem a doubtful decision, casting aside the obvious commercial allure for Games Workshop of selling more miniatures. So far, it has been a mixed bag. I will first try to point out some advantages and disadvantages to the new background developments, with an eye to setting over narrative.

The Laudable

What some have described as the Indomitus Heresy is not bereft of quality. For instance, bringing Primarch Roboute Guilliman back has served up a good number of memorable moments, most of them revolving around a contrast play between the sclerotic, fanatical and demented Imperium of the 42nd millennium, with the optimistic and enterprising early Imperium during the human renaissance that was the brutal but brilliant Great Crusade. Which is a good call. Guilliman's headbutting with the fervently religious mankind of the latter Age of Imperium is well known, but a more subtle strain has also been carried forth by various authors, namely the contrast between the humourless, stern, pious and rigorously hierarchical Imperium of 40k with the more jovial, easygoing and seemingly approachable Imperium of 40k. This perfectly mirrors the souring of the fundamental mood of the Roman empire from classical antiquity through the crisis of the third century and the travails of late antiquity and the middle ages. Special mention in this regard goes to a little scene where Guilliman in full armour is doing paperwork, and a plastic sheet falls down on the floor. Since his powered glove is not built to pick up tiny objects, Guilliman quips that he has been defeated by his greatest enemy, to which a nearby Marine asks if his lord made a joke. The Primarch's sarcastic reply is affirmative, for in the legendary age from which he hails he did not spend all time at heroics and grand works, but occasionally he would enjoy himself with making a simple joke.

Likewise, Guilliman's sweeping reforms continues to play heavily on the Roman themes of organization for resilience that has long been a hallmark of the setting's background. And seeing the Primarch's handling of the High Lords of Terra and the flogging of the Paternoval Envoy of the Navigators was undeniably sweet.

And Abaddon now comes across as a competent threat.

More can be said about other positive developments, including good new artworks, but hopefully you get the point: Some new background do play up the setting. To say nothing of the glorious new background for Necromunda and Leagues of Votann, but that is outside of the narrative scope of this discussion.

The Questionable

On the negative side, the list grows: Shoehorning so much from Horus Heresy into 40k. Doing away completely with remote mythical figures of the past by first showing them in Horus Heresy, and then bringing back Primarchs in M42. Deus ex machina introduction of improved Marines, without flaws or echoes of the Cursed Founding to better ground them in the decrepit themes of the setting. There is a lot that pulls against the grain of the setting, and runs counter to its overarching themes, but let us cut the minus list short here.

At the end of the day, such large new background developments will be up to personal interpretation. Skeptics like myself are free to view it as an interesting alternative dimension but not the real deal of the static setting, and those who enjoy it are free to embrace it.

However, it would seem to me that on balance, the current background developments are still salvagable for the sake of maintaining the vision of 40k without breaking its overarching themes.

Proposed Tweaks

Without getting bogged down in detail and characters, I would like to present the following list on how to adjust the new background developments to play up the themes of the setting instead of running against it. This will be done with an eye to 'show over tell' in the miniature department, and an eye to 'tell' in the background department. The aim is to make small adjustments, not sweeping overhauls, to try and end up in a recognizably grimdark spot.

Pure improvement aside, I personally like Cawl because mad geniuses slaving away in laboratories (like the Emperor and His genetors did) is something I like to see in fiction. So I'm willing to overlook GW writing Cawl's handiwork as too perfect for the decrepit themes of the setting. It is even possible to take an angle that the Primaris Marines, for all their brilliance and power, is in the final analysis a strategic malinvestment: That the Imperium for instance could have been better served by investing many of the vast resources bound up in Primaris expansion in increasing output of lethal special weaponry or heavy support for their hordes of organized infantry, or some suchlike take. With one obvious parallell being the overengineered Tiger tank contra cost effective Stug and Hetzer investments made by Germany toward the later stages of the second world war in real history (with Soviet decisions in 1941 to switch tank production to the most easily mass produced but sufficiently powerful variant, the T34, and then making the original design even cruder, chiming in as well).

Now, if a finger could have been snapped and GW had put some focus with miniature releases on showcasing the depths of desperation which the Imperium plunges with their new narrative drive, I would have liked to see roughly this lineup, with more that could be added, but you get the idea:

- Primaris Marines. Improved Astartes, bigger and stronger and made to win a war of attrition against mutated and more experienced Chaos Space Marines. The Imperium is after all fixated upon their Archenemy, so this is fine. Let the counterproductive Imperial obsession with Chaos play itself out. And it could be a malinvestment of resources and a logistical headache when Firstborn Astartes sufficed just fine and ate a smaller resource pie.

- Failed Primaris experiments herded into battle. Corvus Corax style.

- Poorly equipped militia units, including barefoot paramilitaries. Maybe technicals of armed civilian vehicles pressed into Loyalist service. Necromunda kits doing double duty?

- Zealot hordes. Flagellants and doomsayers and fanatics throwing themselves unto martyrdom. Complete with descriptions of pogroms and schismatic violence peaking in the dark days of the present.

- Imperial Guard with lunge mines and outright human bombs as per Rogue Trader. Or somesuch similar depiction of callous and desperate and dysfunctional budget measures being rolled out in response to a slide into doomsday; it need not necessarily be these suggestions, it could be something else entirely. Think cheap and shoddy wargear to fill gaps and check boxes on paper.

- Blocking detachments of an NKVD-equivalent in space. Give the Commissars some company.

And give the Tau Gue'vesa human auxiliaries to display rats abandoning a sinking ship, or put differently desperate souls clinging to the only alternative offered to the crushing tyranny of the Imperium. Chaos Cultists and Genestealer Cults are already well represented with units and miniatures.

Other parts that would play up the visual depravity are already long since covered to great effect by the Adepta Sororitas and the Ecclesiarchy's bonkers penitence engines and arco-flagellants. But I guess an autodafé on tracks could help play up the ongoing madness.

With something in the spirit of the above proposals, I believe that the new background developments could be made to better fit the overarching themes of the 40k setting. Again, the aim is for tweaks, rather than sweeping overhauls, and much of it is show over tell supported by miniature releases.

How would you have received the new background developments if the above proposals were baked into it?

Please share your thoughts and your own proposals.

Cheers



Imperium Nihilus artwork by Phil Moss

This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2024/03/16 15:16:53


   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




Show Guilliman being gradually defeated by the bureaucracy and scale of the Imperium. As a Primarch, with all the religious aura that has attached to that status, he could probably win any one single reform battle he focused on, but he's juggling too many balls in the air at once. He's trying to save and reform the entire Imperium at once and never staying put in one place long enough to see his reforms take root and survive long enough to be self-sustaining. He will also gradually lose the support of some people when his reforms, well meaning as they might be, lead to the loss of their livelihoods such as when entire useless departments of the Administratum are abolished. These are the people that then might be press ganged into service as ship crew or cannon fodder. Resentful of this loss of status and livelihood, they might be more inclined to rebel.

We do see a few small hints of Guilliman's zeal for reform being slowly ground down. He decides to tolerate the Ecclesiarchy for now since faith provides provable benefits against Chaos. He shelves his attempt to figure out and revise the dating system because he has to concentrate on more immediate military matters. Basically we see him sacrifice his ideals and these longer term quality of life reforms for the sake of short term measures for the sake of military practicality and short term advantage.

In one of the novels, a high up ally of Guilliman for one plot (which I will not reveal due to spoilers) said he actually doesn't believe in Guilliman's mission to reform the Imperium, believing the Imperium turned out the way it did because it was the Emperor's will it do so. Nevertheless, this ally aided Guilliman in getting his Indomitus Crusade started because he thinks Guilliman's Indomitus Crusade will humble him as he will find the scale of the task beyond even him, and that Guilliman would return chastened and more willing to function within the 40K Imperium rather than trying to reform it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/03/17 00:53:36


 
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






I'd like to point out that at the end of Godblight, Guilliman has started to come around to the idea that the Emperor might actually be a God.

Also, the whole "Primaris don't have flaws" thing hasn't actually been a thing since the very first days of 8th when they were introduced. The various geneseed flaws actually started to manifest more strongly in many Primaris because rather than using geneseed diluted over 10k years, Cawl had access to pure Primarch DNA but without the advanced processes of the Legions to nullify the worst effects.
   
Made in us
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard





 Gert wrote:
I'd like to point out that at the end of Godblight, Guilliman has started to come around to the idea that the Emperor might actually be a God.

Also, the whole "Primaris don't have flaws" thing hasn't actually been a thing since the very first days of 8th when they were introduced. The various geneseed flaws actually started to manifest more strongly in many Primaris because rather than using geneseed diluted over 10k years, Cawl had access to pure Primarch DNA but without the advanced processes of the Legions to nullify the worst effects.


Yeah I was going to point that out as well. The No Flaws thing was a fluff bait-and-switch. They were "marketed" that way to Gulliman (not necessarily to us) - probably as a way to kick the Deathcompany/Ravenwing/etc can down the road long enough to sculpt - Thus why "Dark Angels don't trust Primaris.". became a thing.

Edit to Add: My issue is "pecking order". Pecking Order is an actual thing for people who raise chicken - There's an alpha chicken, a beta, and so on. Every time you add a new chicken to your coop, they reset and redefine that order. GW just added 5 REALLY BIG chickens to the coop. Fluff that out. The Primarchs with their "First Captains". The Primarchs with each other. Tell us how Gulliman and Johnson are getting along. Tell us about how Angron and Gulliman are so lonely they have top secret holographic chats with each other for as long as Angron can keep himself under control that still ultimately end when Angron has a temper tantrum - which just makes Gulliman even sadder about this world he just woke up in. "Advance" the fluff for the Chaos primarchs such that not ALL of them are a thinly veiled copy of the thinly veiled Oedipal story of a son trying to oust his father. None of these Primarchs had a stupid but loyal first captain that remained stupid but loyal?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/03/18 04:53:55


My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





I'm not opposed to a lot of the OP's suggestions, but I also feel like people could already interpret most of them as being the case.

As has been pointed out, primaris *do* still suffer gene flaws. More and more humans *are* joining the Greater Good as the empire expands. While model support for it is a bit lacking, there's nothing stopping people from fielding zealot hordes or meat grinder conscripts using the existing IG rules (autoguns and other civillian weapons seem to have very similar stats to lasguns based on the cultist stats).

Plus, we've seen first-hand that anyone in Imperium Nihilus is stuck scrounging together increasingly desperate mish-mashes of gear. See: the state of the fleet being used in the Emperor's Spears novel.

In other words, those are all good ideas, but I think we've sort of been free to interpret things as being that way (at least in some patches of the galaxy) the whole time.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






Now that there is the sort of "unifying" vision of the Dawn of Fire series, we're getting a lot of things expanded upon.

Iron Kingdom for example shows the meddling of the forces of Chaos and the heavy-handedness of the Imperium working in cohort to give the Imperium a victory but one tainted with betrayal, blue-on-blue, and the loss of significant leadership and assets.

Gate of Bones even has Guilliman allow for a Custodian who sacrificed themselves to be made a Saint because he knows that even if that act loses him friends in the Adeptus Custodes, it wins him huge points with literally everyone else.
   
Made in se
Stubborn Hammerer





Sweden

Thank you very much for input, ideas and criticism.

Most interesting as to the bait and switch background with geneseed purity and flaws. Thanks a lot for filling in there and setting the record straight with good descriptions. Out of curiosity, in which published material can information on this be found?

@Wyldhunt: Yes, for sure. I spend most of my time thinking about 40k freely in such manner, but occasionally I switch spectacles to see how the setting and narrative may appear to others who keep more inside the box.

   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






Any Marine Codex after 8th, the Blood Angels specifically get it mentioned in their Psychic Awakening book, and Wolves probably got it mentioned around the same time.
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch




Tell us how Gulliman and Johnson are getting along.


Everyone's waiting on this one. But the two haven't met yet, and Guilliman might not even know that Johnson is back yet (Johnson definitely knows about Guilliman). For whatever reason, GW has decided to save their reunion for later.

Many people are also waiting for when one or more of the Primarchs meet up with Bjorn for the first time in 10,000 years.
   
Made in se
Been Around the Block




I have to admit to some misanthropy in regards to the state of not just 40k but modern pop culture in general.

For 40k the themes of it where lost a long time ago. It's only going to get more generic over time.
And we can't fix any of it because we have no actual control of the setting.

The only fiction normal everyday people can hope to exert a measure of control of is that we either outright own or that which is in public domain.

Therefore it would be better to spend most of the energy to make original works or to make works out of material that is already in public domain.

Anyway I say that and I believe that but I still did try to make a chaos improvement. And heretical writings. And I did try to make my own space marine chapter to improve on the Iron Hands.

...I will give you the links.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/805062.page
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/811781.page
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Karak Norn Clansman wrote:
Thank you very much for input, ideas and criticism.

Most interesting as to the bait and switch background with geneseed purity and flaws. Thanks a lot for filling in there and setting the record straight with good descriptions. Out of curiosity, in which published material can information on this be found?

@Wyldhunt: Yes, for sure. I spend most of my time thinking about 40k freely in such manner, but occasionally I switch spectacles to see how the setting and narrative may appear to others who keep more inside the box.


Wolves definitely have Primaris falling to Wulfen. I remember it from the 8th Codex, which I probably have lying about.

The thing about 40k is that no one person can grasp the fullness of it.

My 95th Praetorian Rifles.

SW Successors

Dwarfs
 
   
 
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