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So according to the fluff I've read, lightning claws on Astartes Terminators can literally cut through almost anything like tissue paper. Tank armor, hull plate, whatever-crete, plasteel, you name it. Even other terminators. That being the case, what is the point of Thunder hammers? A slow cumbersome weapon that generally cannot cut through tank armor like paper. Or has not been demonstrated to do as such in books. Such has been done by super unique maces wielded by daemons/Chaos people, like the mace of the chaos terminator in the DoW book 4 I think, where they Teleport strike down, and 1 Chaos terminator takes out like an entire squad of Primaris Intercessors and a captain in like a few seconds with just his mace.

Aside from super powerful fluff powered unique daemon weapons, why take TH over lightning claws for dealing with armor, or really anything? Lightning claws can literally cut anything in half. I don't get the point of using a weapon that just hits it, really hard. Is it because of the shield? In the Snakes of Ithaca book the brother with the power claw leading Damocles squad has only a single claw, so it's possible to do a claw and a shield I would assume?

It depends.

Originally, Lightning Claws were Power Fists with extra spangles. Now, they hit less hard.

But they are described as require specific, and intensive, training to use correctly either singularly or as a pair. Not only are blades mounted on the back of your hand somewhat awkward to wield, but an unskilled person may be liable to do more harm to themeself.

Thunder Hammers however obliterate targets. Of all the weapons available to Terminators, they’re the least subtle and most destructive. Once upon a time, they auto-wounded and auto-penetrated, doing multiple wounds to non-vehicle targets.

Remember, Marines are about killing the foe in horrific ways. Proper, unhinged “what’s the Geneva convention” splatty nasty death. One hit kills, and no such thing as a flesh wound kills.

Whether it’s seeing fellow soldiers sliced to ribbons or utterly obliterated, these weapons serve their purpose.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It depends.

Originally, Lightning Claws were Power Fists with extra spangles. Now, they hit less hard.

But they are described as require specific, and intensive, training to use correctly either singularly or as a pair. Not only are blades mounted on the back of your hand somewhat awkward to wield, but an unskilled person may be liable to do more harm to themeself.

Thunder Hammers however obliterate targets. Of all the weapons available to Terminators, they’re the least subtle and most destructive. Once upon a time, they auto-wounded and auto-penetrated, doing multiple wounds to non-vehicle targets.

Remember, Marines are about killing the foe in horrific ways. Proper, unhinged “what’s the Geneva convention” splatty nasty death. One hit kills, and no such thing as a flesh wound kills.

Whether it’s seeing fellow soldiers sliced to ribbons or utterly obliterated, these weapons serve their purpose.

My only quibble is that Marines are about killing as many, as effectively as possible. That means as quickly as possible. Lightning claws scythe through tanks and people a lot faster than thunder hammers.

Thunder Hammers shatter tanks, doors, curtain walls, flesh, automata, wraithbone, overload energy fields. All sorts.

Lightning Claws can eventually get through a bulkhead. As can a Powerfist. But when speed is of the essence? Those lads stand back and let the Thunder Hammer or Chainfist do the knocking.

Need to kneecap a rampaging Dreadnought? That’s what you need a Thunder Hammer for. And the Stormshield ensures you survive to do get the job done.

A single Thunder Hammer can pulp a Patriarch, mulch a Chaos Lord or detonate a Carnifex with a single strike. Even if the opponent blocks your blow, whatever they just blocked with is at high risk of going bye-byes.

Well, I mean, that's not a really fair test. A Custodian with a Miseracodia (NOW THIS IS A KNIFE) can kill a primarch in under a second. That doesn't mean a Custodastabber is better than a TH.

TH are obviously better AT, but I'm saying fluff-wise, the Lightning claws have been shown to cut a literal chimera in half(One of the Cadia Books), cut the turret off a baneblade (Book 2), and literally basically walk through a concreate sewer wall like he was swimming through it and come out onto the street (Cain book where he shacks up with the daughter of the planetary Governor)

Difference between precision and obliteration.

You’ve boarded an enemy ship, and taken the bridge. Thunder Hammers will let you do horrendous damage to the controls and instruments in absolutely no time at all.

Fighting in a building? Thunder Hammer will take out structural support quickly, with the Terminators perfectly capable of surviving or teleporting out of the collapse.

The samples you give are extreme for Lightning Claws, and by no means representative.

And in what way is pointing out the two weapon systems have wildly different applications is it that you believe isn’t a fair comparison? Would you write off a steak knife because it’s crap at opening tins? Criticise your deep freeze because unlike your oven, it doesn’t cook your dinner? Declare water worthless because unlike delicious beer, it doesn’t get you even slightly dizzy?

Yeah, lightning claws don't typically saw through tanks. A Chimera is at the extreme end of normal for Space Marines with lightning claws and a Baneblade is exceptional (read: artistic license for the story, but freak things do happen in war).

Thunderhammers do typically destroy tanks, and have been used to destroy titans. They are one of the most destructive melee weapons available to Marines.

Essentially lighting claws are broadly supposed to be anti horde and thunder hammers with storm shield are anti heavy. A terminator can fit storm shield with lightning claw, but Codex compliant terminator squads do not. Therefore it is a rare loadout of commanders and terminators from chapters like the Space Wolves.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Well, I mean, that's not a really fair test. A Custodian with a Miseracodia (NOW THIS IS A KNIFE) can kill a primarch in under a second. That doesn't mean a Custodastabber is better than a TH.

TH are obviously better AT, but I'm saying fluff-wise, the Lightning claws have been shown to cut a literal chimera in half(One of the Cadia Books), cut the turret off a baneblade (Book 2), and literally basically walk through a concreate sewer wall like he was swimming through it and come out onto the street (Cain book where he shacks up with the daughter of the planetary Governor)

I think you're hitting the problem of inconsistent fluff here.
You have enough examples in the books where chainswords and bolters pretty much kill every infantry they want, including Marines. It sometimes makes you wonder why you'd need anything even stronger.

As others have pointed out, it sounds like you're being thrown off by some over-the-top/inconsistent fluff regarding lightning claw performance. Impressive as they are, they're probably not reliably slicing a chimera in half on the first try. If they can cut through a bulkhead, it probably take quite a bit longer than it would for a thunder hammer to smash the door in.

The more consistent description of the two weapons' capabilities is that claws are easier to wield and perfectly good at slicing through most things but less good at dealing with thicker armor in a hurry whereas the thunderhammer is a bit more awkward to swing but inflicts damage on an entirely different level. A marine who gets hit by a lightning claw is bleeding. A marine who gets hit by a thunder hammer is almost certainly dead, possibly with a large part of his body splattered across the walls.

Oh, thunder hammers also stun opponents who do survive the first hit through the sheer concussive release in a way even chainfists and power fists do not.

A vehicle surviving a hit by a thunder hammer is unlikely to be able to escape the next attack as it reels from the blow. A vehicle surviving lightning claws can just drive off.

Yeah, I'm willing to chalk up "inconsistent narrators" to the behavior of lightning claws. I just wanted to ask, from a lore perspective, why terminators, (Already the 'ardest bois on the battlefield) suddenly need more defense, in exchange for more offense. Also, if we're talking just regular boys, it seems odd to give a regular marine a single hammer, instead of a claw/bolt pistol or Claws and Combibolter on claws) It seems like the idea of the thunder hammer is surprisingly, inefficient for the most "efficient" and advanced fighting force in the Imperium. It's like Cawl, in all his wisdom, BSOD'd while making designs, and suddenly instead of making really efficient killing tools, decided to go with a Goku Move "LETS HIT THEM.....REALLY HARD."

Firstly, fists/claws with inbuilt bolters or other firearms are generally rare relics. They must be difficult to produce.

Secondly, the hammer is for the really monstrous foes that cannot be reliably downed with lesser weapons. Vehicles (especially super heavies), fortresses, big Tyranid gribblies, Ork Warbosses, Squiggoths, even other Terminators. Because these tend to be the most dangerous of foes, even the legendary durability of Terminator armour needs augmenting with the storm shield to maximise the chance of destroying the target without casualties.

Of course, lightning claws and storm bolter + power fist/chain fist also have their place, hence why all three loadouts are common.

So technically, we are either fluff, or we're table top. By the fluff, THs are some of the rarest relics of a chapter, and only given to the most revered champions. Not a standard load out kit. Power fists/claws are standard loadout for terminators, as they are relatively common/they come in to plastech box, I think the most rare "melee only" is the Chain fist, so rare in fact (Please correct me) that they literally only exist in chaos legions now, they are all from Pre-Heresy Tartaros patterns.

As for hybrid Melee/Shooty combos, yes, the Powerfist SB is "rare" but only for certain chapters. The minotaurs, GK, and IW can field them with regularity in the fluff. I think the IF could as well, prior to the Cardian Gate incident. The Salamanders, Ultramarines, and the Dark Angels have been shown to field suits of Terminator plate with various wrist mounted weaponry. From SB to Melta, to Flamers. So there is precedent. If we go by Table top, yeah, it never happens. Unless their called Aggressors.

Chainfists are not rare as far as I know. They are a bit more specialized then a normal powerfist, so a general loadout for tactical terminatos isn’t going to spam them in the squad. (The new terminator box will let you build a full squad of them, as do the rules)

SB/Powerfist is the “normal” load for terminators AFAIK. Anything else is a specialist,

Wrist mounted weapons might be rare, but not normal storm/combi bolters. Guns built into fists are also rare. I think the only examples are a GL in a captain’s fist, the the melta in the DW salamander.

As for LCs, they will blend anything they can reach, but have shorter blades. They can only cut so deep in one slash. THs release a huge burst, which can reverb/shatter/penetrate deep into the things they hit.

THs are also described as slow and unwieldy. While TDA armor is tough, it’s not invulnerable. The traditional SS matches with it to make sure they can get off their powerful strikes.

I'm not sure where you have got that impression? TH/SS isn't any more rare than the other two major Terminator loadouts of LC and PF/SB (with the caveat that all Terminator equipment is rare on an Imperium scale). Their role is to target the biggest enemy units but that is a big part of Space Marine combat- they go for decapitation strikes and capturing critical strongpoints.

Chain fists didn't use to be rare (the previous Terminator kit had 2 per 5 models and an entire squad could take them). Indomitus (the default pattern), Tartaros, and Cataphractii pattern suits can all equip chain fists. They are just a bit niche as they are mainly helpful in boarding assaults and similar fortified and dense confines. Otherwise they don't add much over a standard powerfist and probably come with some kind of power or reliability penalty. They are certainly more common than fist weapons with in-built firearms.

Speaking of which, Terminators in 40k do not commonly use fists with built in firearms. Marneus Calgar had a relic suit with a pair. There have been models of Terminator Captains with grenade launchers on their fists. Abaddon has a built-in combi-bolter on the Talon of Horus. I cannot think of any other Terminator examples off the top of my head. Grey Knights have wrist-mounted storm bolters but they are not built into fists or lightning claws, and some librarians from other Chapters have used similar wrist mounts without fists (presumably to enable easier use of psychic powers). Vulkan He'stan had a fist with a heavy flamer built in that was a relic built by the Primarch Vulkan himself, used with artificer armour. These are rare weapons used by Chapter heroes.

Edit: ninja'd by Nevelon. Although I forgot about the DeathWatch Salamander with inbuilt meltagun in this fist, thanks Nevelon

In simple terms, thunder hammers are mainly for hitting big, scary things. If something is big and scary enough to warrant sending a full squad of thunderhammers after it, it probably has at least one way of getting through terminator armor.

On a meta level, I think thunderhammers used to swing at initiative 1, so the shield (in addition to looking cool) helped you feel like you were likely to survive against incoming power weapon attacks while you wait for your chance to swing.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

TH are obviously better AT, but I'm saying fluff-wise, the Lightning claws have been shown to cut a literal chimera in half(One of the Cadia Books), cut the turret off a baneblade (Book 2), and literally basically walk through a concreate sewer wall like he was swimming through it and come out onto the street (Cain book where he shacks up with the daughter of the planetary Governor)

1. Don't believe everything you read.
2. Just because something performed an action once(or twice) doesn't mean it can reliably perform that action upon every use.

Like, Lightning Claws may be able to do certain things under extraordinary circumstances that Thunder Hammer can achieve easier and more reliably, and vice versa.

 Insectum7 wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

TH are obviously better AT, but I'm saying fluff-wise, the Lightning claws have been shown to cut a literal chimera in half(One of the Cadia Books), cut the turret off a baneblade (Book 2), and literally basically walk through a concreate sewer wall like he was swimming through it and come out onto the street (Cain book where he shacks up with the daughter of the planetary Governor)

1. Don't believe everything you read.
2. Just because something performed an action once(or twice) doesn't mean it can reliably perform that action upon every use.

Like, Lightning Claws may be able to do certain things under extraordinary circumstances that Thunder Hammer can achieve easier and more reliably, and vice versa.

I understand your points, and I agree. Fluff is inconsistent. My point is that the consistent part of fluff is simply: Lightning claws wielded by terminators have been shown to be unstoppable by 99% of surfaces. There is almost no surface in the fluff that stops a lightning claw. Aside from armor that is thicker than the length of the claw. That means Titans. If you are throwing TDA at titans, even with TH/SS, you deserve to lose your entire company, and your chapter. Because you're an idiot. There is no conceivable scenario where you throw your most valuable assets against a foe, and want them A. getting into Melee. and B. Getting into melee with a slow and cumbersome weapon that is difficult to wield in close spaces.

Recognised Space Marine tactic.

Anyway, lightning claws can't cut through everything with ease. They can cut through most things with ease and somethings withva lot of effort that thunderhammers can break much easier. Like tanks.

Ok, so Lightning claws are ineffective vs titans, but somehow a Blank/Vortex grenade is? And this proves what point?

I'm sorry if this comes off as flippant, but all this demonstrates is that extremely dumb military leader is known for doing extrordinary dumbs, and has a unit of the dumbest dumbs to go and do more dumbs, I.E. Waste TDA suits and chapter relics on melee fighting titans, when the IF have literal ranged weapons far better suited to the task.

This is one of those, the lore is so incredibly stupid and contrary to common sense, I need to stop thinking about it rationally and just let it go.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Ok, so Lightning claws are ineffective vs titans, but somehow a Blank/Vortex grenade is? And this proves what point?

I'm sorry if this comes off as flippant, but all this demonstrates is that extremely dumb military leader is known for doing extrordinary dumbs, and has a unit of the dumbest dumbs to go and do more dumbs, I.E. Waste TDA suits and chapter relics on melee fighting titans, when the IF have literal ranged weapons far better suited to the task.

This is one of those, the lore is so incredibly stupid and contrary to common sense, I need to stop thinking about it rationally and just let it go.

Thunder Hammers are also better against something like a Land Raider or a Tyranofex.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Ok, so Lightning claws are ineffective vs titans, but somehow a Blank/Vortex grenade is? And this proves what point?

I'm sorry if this comes off as flippant, but all this demonstrates is that extremely dumb military leader is known for doing extrordinary dumbs, and has a unit of the dumbest dumbs to go and do more dumbs, I.E. Waste TDA suits and chapter relics on melee fighting titans, when the IF have literal ranged weapons far better suited to the task.

This is one of those, the lore is so incredibly stupid and contrary to common sense, I need to stop thinking about it rationally and just let it go.

The only long-ranged weapon Space Marines have routine access to that is better at hunting titans (pre-Primaris) is their orbiting space craft, for which there may be good reasons they can't target the enemy forces*. The whole point of this formation is that it can teleport inside the void shields (which protect against long-ranged fire) and the Terminators are tough enough to survive Titans stepping on them but struggle to survive Titan firepower. I.e get in close and negate the Titan's advantages whilst maximising your own strengths of immense melee power. Meltaguns could do the same thing but the troops that can take meltaguns are much less survivable.

*Enemy anti-orbital ground defences, enemy spacecraft etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm not really sure what else you want us to say. The lore on lightning claws is that they are an anti-infantry option (including most heavy infantry), and thunderhammers are for the big targets- vehicles, monstrous creatures, tough enemy commanders, fortifications.

A small number of examples of lightning claws destroying tanks doesn't negate the role of the latter, they are simply exceptional cases.

Let me go grab my 2nd Ed Wargear Book, and I’ll offer direct quotes.

2nd Ed Wargear Book pp9 wrote:
Lightning claws are a special weapon used by Space Marines in Terminator Armour. They consist of a pair of heavy armoured power gloves with long slashing talons sheathed in a rippling blue power field. They are normally worn in pairs, and are a very difficult weapon to master, requiring an individual style of fighting in which the long claws are used to cover against attacks as well as to slash against the opponent,

When the curved blade rake across armour or flesh they discharge crackling energy like small lightning strikes over the target, tearing it apart and exposing flesh and bone to further assault.

2nd Ed Wargear Book pp12. wrote:This is a weapon used by Terminator Space Marines and is normally used in conjunction with a Storm Shield. The thunder hammer is a large hammer with a power generator that energises only when the hammer strikes its target. This allows the weapon to store a tremendous amount of energy and release it only at the moment of impact, producing a terrific blast of energy and a sound like a crack of thunder. Were it not for his Terminator armour the Space Marine himself would probably be knocked over by the impact

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

TH are obviously better AT, but I'm saying fluff-wise, the Lightning claws have been shown to cut a literal chimera in half(One of the Cadia Books), cut the turret off a baneblade (Book 2), and literally basically walk through a concreate sewer wall like he was swimming through it and come out onto the street (Cain book where he shacks up with the daughter of the planetary Governor)

1. Don't believe everything you read.
2. Just because something performed an action once(or twice) doesn't mean it can reliably perform that action upon every use.

Like, Lightning Claws may be able to do certain things under extraordinary circumstances that Thunder Hammer can achieve easier and more reliably, and vice versa.

I understand your points, and I agree. Fluff is inconsistent. My point is that the consistent part of fluff is simply: Lightning claws wielded by terminators have been shown to be unstoppable by 99% of surfaces. There is almost no surface in the fluff that stops a lightning claw. Aside from armor that is thicker than the length of the claw. That means Titans. If you are throwing TDA at titans, even with TH/SS, you deserve to lose your entire company, and your chapter. Because you're an idiot. There is no conceivable scenario where you throw your most valuable assets against a foe, and want them A. getting into Melee. and B. Getting into melee with a slow and cumbersome weapon that is difficult to wield in close spaces.

Lightning claws will get through the surface of things, but for big things won’t get that deep. A thunder hammer strike will mess up the internals much more.

Important when you’re fighting things like carnifexes which can shrug off a goo deal of surface damage.

 Haighus wrote:

The only long-ranged weapon Space Marines have routine access to that is better at hunting titans (pre-Primaris) is their orbiting space craft,

Wasn't there an option to upgrade the main gun on a Thunderhawk to a big AT laser at some point? (Turbolaser?) I thought that plus the underwing missiles could do reasonable anti-superheavy work, for some reason.

There was also the melta weapon on the Caestus Assault Ram, but the T-hawks have got to be much more common.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Haighus wrote:

The only long-ranged weapon Space Marines have routine access to that is better at hunting titans (pre-Primaris) is their orbiting space craft,

Wasn't there an option to upgrade the main gun on a Thunderhawk to a big AT laser at some point? (Turbolaser?) I thought that plus the underwing missiles could do reasonable anti-superheavy work, for some reason.

There was also the melta weapon on the Caestus Assault Ram, but the T-hawks have got to be much more common.

Fair regarding the turbolaser on some Thunderhawks, but does suffer from being on an aircraft. However, a wing of Thunderhawks certainly could threaten a Titan on attack runs. I had forgotten about these.

I wouldn't count the Caestus as "long ranged" The melta would be wasted on void shields unless it fired from point-blank range just before ramming (which is what it is designed to do). Actually also a good way of delivering a unit of Terminators into melee after it rammed the Titan.

Aircraft in general are good for anti-Titan work.
Titans generally lack support weapons and being Imperial designs, they have a big stupid head that is prime for airstrikes.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Let me go grab my 2nd Ed Wargear Book, and I’ll offer direct quotes.

Genuinely the best source of info for most weapons outside the RPGs. Most of what came after is either directly lifting from 2nd edition or so layered with hyperbole and bias that you get things like lightning claws cutting tanks in half.

Lightning Claws are for cutting through lots of things quickly. Going up against a mob of Orks? take the claws
Powerswords are for going up against someone else with a similar weapon or heavy armour.
Thunderhammers are for going up against things likely to survive the first hit. That's the point of the stunning effect, if you smack a carnifex in the head with a thunder hammer, you know it's probably going to survive, but will be stunned so you can go for another hit before it kills you.
Powerfists are for hitting things that need to be put down quickly, but you can probably survive the retaliatory strikes.
Chainfists are for breaching, their effectiveness against tanks is incidental but useful

Everything has its place and uses, it's just that their particular niches and roles are not best represented on the 40k tabletop

Coming from 4th Ed originally the reason you took storm shield and th over lightning claws was they gave you a 3+ inv save.
Now that terms have a 4+ inv save as standard then it now depends on what you're using your terms for.
Anti vehicle and tough character hunting....th. anti infantry lightning claws rule

In the old days the fluff would point describe how weapons of certain power were held in high retime so only certain deserving positions or ranks would merit their use.

As much sense as it makes to have all your troops with the most powerful weapons it doesn’t suit the imperiums dogmatic view of everything.

Also the fluff used to say that terminator armour and weapons were rare and couldn’t be replicated and weee treated like holy relics passed from marine to marine.

But since the advent of primaris marines the imperium clearly has the resources to equip units with any gear they want. So why not give all astartes melta guns