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Now that Blackshields have HH second edition rules, I thought it would be a good idea to get a thread where we can discuss them.

Looking at the Oaths, I can see there are some stand out combos. Taint of the Xenos and Cursed Helix Abhorrent, can make Veterans hiting in melee at strength 9 AP3, which should be enough to threaten most things in the game.

I'm very tempted by Pride is Our Armour, being able to have Veterans with Line, Fury of the Legion and Heart of the Legion seems great the 2 extra Elite slots also give some nice options.

In Disgrace all are Equal, allows for unit Champions to be very good, extra Wound, Headship, and the choice of either Weapon Skill, Ballistic skill, strength, or initiative. Also no HQ choices denies the enemy any slay the warlord shenanigans.

The Flesh is Weak, just seems like it is going to be taken all the time, giving all Infantry and Cavalry Feel no pain (5+) and Automata, seems like a great way to play an absolute tank of a force. It does have some draw backs, not being able to use reactions, and also being forced to shoot at the closest enemy unit that can be damaged.

Spoils of Victory seems like a good way to rack up some Victory Points quite quickly.

Hopefully I'll get to use my Bronze Brotherhood soon enough to see how they fare.

I was looking forward to these, on the strength of Militia provenances, but sadly none of them look satisfying to play and none of them look fun to convert more than one squad of.

Pride is our Armor is the main one I was looking at for a force and then maybe Taint of Xenos or the one that gives you the Wargear options of a Legion.

Oh snap two 3d file sets with Marine arms wielding lasguns and autoguns have appeared already

lol very nice. That oath might be fun to check out just for weight of fire.

Not sure how this ended up in the wrong thread. My bad.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Pride is our Armor is the main one I was looking at for a force and then maybe Taint of Xenos or the one that gives you the Wargear options of a Legion.

Panopy of Old is the one that allows you to take the Wargear from a Legion. It is one of few that can be taken twice.

I have been looking at that Oath recently, Salamanders Dragon Breath weapons, and Raven Guard Talon Claws seem to be a combo I am wanting to try out as I have a lot of Lightning Claws, Flamers, and Heavy Flamers.

Honestly, the whole alien tech thingy is really underwhelming.. until you check out the echo blades, there's probably a not too nice combination with Abberants from the broken helix. What with S9 AP 3 attacks out the backdoor.

I have a question in regards to the panopy of Old:

To quote:

" Models with this Oarth gain access to any unique wargear options available to models with the legiones Astartes (x) special rule variant noted as part of this oath. This does not allow those models to select Warlord Traits, Rites of war, Consul types, praetor upgrdes or other options available of the Legiones Astartes (x) special rule and does not allow the detachment to include units restricted to detachments of that faction"

My question is assume for a moment you chose the ever balanced Imperial fists for your Oath there's a bit in the armoury allowing you to buy Deepstrike for squads, can i buy that or not?
Why? Well it's clear to me that weaponry is fair game but with armor wargear limited f.e. to Praetors or consuls in general (independant charachters) is that still the case or are they "praetor Upgrades". What happens to special issue wargear like White scars jetbikes? Specific options like the Ghorgon Terminator armor etc?

Basically "option" and "wargear" are not clearly split.

So far my inclination is, that if it is a weapon, armor or other piece of equipment as shown by the language used in the armory it's a piece of equipment now available. Specific upgrades to praetors like Iron fathers of the Iron hands are a nono but in the same vein the ghorgon terminator armor is fine because it's not just Prator but seemingly an available piece of wargear for all praetors and centurions.
Or would one just have to stick to Weaponry?

Good question. I'd agree that it needs to be a "physical" item and not a "skill" so the teleport strike would be a nono, but the same ability would be okay if it was a fancy Teleport Homer item.

I think it's a difficult one to determine.

On one hand, I would argue that paying for a special rule is not Wargear so in the case of Imperial Fists, buying Deep Strike would be a no. However, the Night Lords get Prey Sight which is not a physical upgrade and gives Night Vision but could also be interpreted as Wargear.

Generally, I would just apply the same rule as always, "Don't Be A Dick". As long as you aren't being a gamey cheesemonger with it then I don't think it would be a huge issue.

I'm sure there will be an FAQ in like 9 months.

Not Online!!! wrote:
I have a question in regards to the panopy of Old:

To quote:

" Models with this Oarth gain access to any unique wargear options available to models with the legiones Astartes (x) special rule variant noted as part of this oath. This does not allow those models to select Warlord Traits, Rites of war, Consul types, praetor upgrades or other options available of the Legiones Astartes (x) special rule and does not allow the detachment to include units restricted to detachments of that faction"

My question is assume for a moment you chose the ever balanced Imperial fists for your Oath there's a bit in the armoury allowing you to buy Deepstrike for squads, can i buy that or not?
Why? Well it's clear to me that weaponry is fair game but with armor wargear limited f.e. to Praetors or consuls in general (independant charachters) is that still the case or are they "praetor Upgrades". What happens to special issue wargear like White scars jetbikes? Specific options like the Ghorgon Terminator armor etc?

Basically "option" and "wargear" are not clearly split.

So far my inclination is, that if it is a weapon, armor or other piece of equipment as shown by the language used in the armory it's a piece of equipment now available. Specific upgrades to praetors like Iron fathers of the Iron hands are a nono but in the same vein the ghorgon terminator armor is fine because it's not just Prator but seemingly an available piece of wargear for all praetors and centurions.
Or would one just have to stick to Weaponry?

It is a piece of wargear, so yes they can have it. The restrictions are not for just weaponry, but all the things in the Wargear section fake the Salamanders for example, their characters can have mastercrafted items, so by taking the Oath, so can Blackshields.

Ok, but then we have Night Lords able to buy Bloody Murder for Independent Characters. It's just a special rule not a piece of wargear.

Or World Eaters with Bererkers which is also an Independent Character upgrade that grants +1 Attack and Ravening Madmen.

What's the difference between an option and wargear? Does it have to be a physical change?
This would mean that Prey Sight is not available to that Oath because it's not a physical change to a model even though it would be very easy to argue that it's additional equipment i.e. wargear.
The same goes for Dark Channelling which also isn't a physical change but adds Corrupted to a units subtype.

Anything listed in a Legions Wargear selection is what the Oath grants. Blackshields aren't the Legions, so their version of 'prey Sight' could be argument3d eyes, as they may have taken the Flesh is weak Oath and are now Automotons.

No where does it say about 'physical changes to a model', so that train of logic isn't applicable

Is itnin the wargear section, if yes... they can have it, if not, nope.

But you're not reading what the Oath actually says because it separates wargear and options.

The former can be taken the latter cannot. The various Armoury sections also say wargear and options with no clarification as to which is which.
So the question is entirely justified.

 Gert wrote:
But you're not reading what the Oath actually says because it separates wargear and options.

The former can be taken the latter cannot. The various Armoury sections also say wargear and options with no clarification as to which is which.
So the question is entirely justified.

Actually, I am reading it. You are over thinking it.

Option as in anything added in an expansion book for that Legion, or a unique option that isn't in the Wargear selection that may be listed in an entry for a character.

When both the Oath and the Legion Armouries specifically use both terms but don't clarify which of the upgrades is Wargear and which is Option then it's perfectly valid to question the rules' clarity.

Every Armoury section in both Liber Astartes and Liber Hereticus goes as follows:

The following comprises a list of new options and Wargear available only to Detachments with the Legiones Astartes (X) Faction and exemplifies the nature of that Legion.

Each one then lists a series of upgrades but does not clarify if the individual upgrade is an option or Wargear. The Oath for Blackshields says Wargear options can be taken but not other options after excluding Warlord Traits, Consul upgrades, Praetor upgrades, and RoW. What are other options? What are Wargear options?

While one could operate on the "Don't Be A Dick" principle, not everyone is going to follow that and clarity is absolutely needed.

OK, so lets go with your argument. Anything that is an option is not allowed?

Which means the Oath is useless as even the weapons are optional, case in point the Salamanders Dragon Breath is a 'May exchange'... which is an option, which you are arguing is not allowed.

Where as my argument is any thing listed in the Wargear selection is fair game. Which is clear and also makes the Oath usable.

Yes and no. What is and is not Wargear would need to be defined. What is the difference between a Phoenix Weapon and Dark Channelling? Which is an option and which is Wargear? Clarity is needed so that people know what they can and cannot do in terms of rules.

Hypothetically yes someone could argue that all the upgrades are options and therefore that Oath is useless. That would be a Dick Move but these people exist and pretending they don't is wrong. Likewise, there are people who would argue everything is Wargear and the rules writers' intentions are ignored in favour of player preference.

I would personally argue that Wargear is a physical change i.e. Phoenix Weapons or Vigil Stormshields as opposed to something like Bloody Murder or Berzerkers but I'm not the rules writers so that's house ruling.

House ruling is all well and good but not if you intend to go to an event.

It's not pretty, but ultimately we have to rely on lore descriptions to tell us what is wargear and what isn't.

Prey Sight is quite explicitly wargear in the italics text under the name. So are Trophies, but Lords of Murder and Bloody Murders are not, they're... uh, personality traits.

At least until an FAQ. Of course, I'm only playing devil's advocate here.

I think they're not gonna touch this in the FAQ as RAI is fairly simple (as you say, don't be a dick) and RAW the only ways it could go are either a "everything is wargear" copout or an itemized list of every valid upgrade in the game, and both would be admissions that their upgrade organization is crap.

 Gert wrote:
Yes and no. What is and is not Wargear would need to be defined. What is the difference between a Phoenix Weapon and Dark Channelling? Which is an option and which is Wargear? Clarity is needed so that people know what they can and cannot do in terms of rules.

Hypothetically yes someone could argue that all the upgrades are options and therefore that Oath is useless. That would be a Dick Move but these people exist and pretending they don't is wrong. Likewise, there are people who would argue everything is Wargear and the rules writers' intentions are ignored in favour of player preference.

I would personally argue that Wargear is a physical change i.e. Phoenix Weapons or Vigil Stormshields as opposed to something like Bloody Murder or Berzerkers but I'm not the rules writers so that's house ruling.

House ruling is all well and good but not if you intend to go to an event.

As someone with a Master in philosophy and the corresponding logics courses taken the issue is that he is indeed fundamentally correct since all these changes are Options which is however clearly not the intent of the rule at all.

It's also unclear if you inherit the limitations on the equipment either since there is a rather unfortunate any "unique wargear clause" which makes the rules even worse written than they are. NVM the borderline cases i allready pointed out. So that means we have to kinda go via intent.

From intent one could also infer that this oath is there to reprsent from where the blackshields are coming from, which of course would include strategies and tactics, which would mean than that the stipulation of "options" beeing special rules and therefore disallowed but in a way that would be even more illogical. Hence the question can you buy deepstrike via Imperial fists as oath target.

IoW. i think its indeed meant the way that you have only access to "physical" on the model wargear to exchange and nothing else, but that would atleast partially go against the intent of highlighting where the blackshields in question came from and let's be blunt it certainly wouldn't brake the balance at all for marine armies since you are still not able to field special unit types of the legions which are in most cases just heads and shoulders above the normal units of the list.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I think they're not gonna touch this in the FAQ as RAI is fairly simple (as you say, don't be a dick) and RAW the only ways it could go are either a "everything is wargear" copout or an itemized list of every valid upgrade in the game, and both would be admissions that their upgrade organization is crap.

But is it really beeing a dick when you highlight from where the blackshields come via buying charachter quirks for NL side of things or tactics like deepstrike from IF derivatives. Afterall the fluff bit explaining what the oath is and the trappings would indicate not merely "material things"


Regardless how one looks at this, it's just badly written and will need a FAQ.

When the rule goes out of it way to emphasize that it doesn't work for anything but wargear, it gets a bit wonky to argue that being angry should count as wargear because theme.

Not that it would be OP, in the slightest. Imagine spending 50% of your Blackshield traits go get back something like 10% the worth of a Legion trait

 lord_blackfang wrote:
When the rule goes out of it way to emphasize that it doesn't work for anything but wargear, it gets a bit wonky to argue that being angry should count as wargear because theme.

Not that it would be OP, in the slightest. Imagine spending 50% of your Blackshield traits go get back something like 10% the worth of a Legion trait

But it's not clear that it isn't wargear. And if we go by the physical line of thought ALL of them are not allowed since intent goes out the window due to how moronical it is written and you are not allowed any option.

 Gert wrote:
Yes and no. What is and is not Wargear would need to be defined. What is the difference between a Phoenix Weapon and Dark Channelling? Which is an option and which is Wargear? Clarity is needed so that people know what they can and cannot do in terms of rules.

Hypothetically yes someone could argue that all the upgrades are options and therefore that Oath is useless. That would be a Dick Move but these people exist and pretending they don't is wrong. Likewise, there are people who would argue everything is Wargear and the rules writers' intentions are ignored in favour of player preference.

I would personally argue that Wargear is a physical change i.e. Phoenix Weapons or Vigil Stormshields as opposed to something like Bloody Murder or Berzerkers but I'm not the rules writers so that's house ruling.

House ruling is all well and good but not if you intend to go to an event.

If I chose to exchange my Flamer for a Dragon Breath Flamer I have chosen an option... which you are arguing against.

Now, if the Oath had of been written that anything in the Armoury with a points cost is off the table, and those that do not have a points cost can be taken. It may have been a happy medium between what you and I are saying. However it didn't, so it is best to er on the side that allows the Oath to be usable.

Each Legiones Astartes special rule has 3-4 subheadings.

1) the rule
2) armoury access
3) sometimes praetor upgrades or other options like berserker upgrades
4) warlord traits

The implication, though not explicitly said, is anything in "the armoury" falls under 2 which is explicitly named as Wargear options (same wording as the Oath), unless it has its own heading.

Berserker and other "other options" falling under their own heading makes them not wargear.

This does mean that Bloody Murder (although certainly useless in Blackshields) falls under "Wargear" which doesn't *feel* quite right but Trophies of Slaughter and Preysight also are wargear under this RAW reading, which *does* feel right.

In fact, by my scanning, more things "feel right" than "feel off" if you follow this RAW reading.

The outliers are the "Bloody Murder" ability and Word Bearer ability to corrupt units, which both "feel like" non-Wargear options but technically are Wargear options (again, by this RAW reading).


example wordings of what I mean, using the World Eaters.

The Butcher’s Panoply
Models with this special rule gain access to unique Wargear options (see The Armoury of the World Eaters).

Tells us that The Armoury of the World Eaters contains the unique Wargear options (what the Oath is looking for).

World Eaters Berserkers
A model with the Legiones Astartes (World Eaters) special rule gains access to the World Eaters Berserkers upgrade, as detailed in The Armoury of the World Eaters.

Tells us that the Berserkers upgrade is not a Wargear option, as it doesn't fall under "The Butcher's Panoply" and instead is another option detailed within The Armoury.

Honestly, has anyone as of now asked GW?

Not that it will change anything in HH seeing as they refuse to fix certain issues with the system since the beginning but i feel a FAQ would be nice.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Oh snap two 3d file sets with Marine arms wielding lasguns and autoguns have appeared already

Some nice current day shotguns too. A space marine running around with a pair of spas12s or uzis is amusing. It's only str3 but it's a lotta str3.

Weighing in a bit late, but it seems pretty obvious that wargear is equipment and weapons; as can be seen in the index wargear lists.

Ergo a teleport homer or a pair of falax blades are wargear because they are (conceptually) things which they wear, wield, or otherwise carry with them to battle.

Where as options are skills and abilities which are learned / ingrained / physically a part of you. Ergo the night lords who have preysight and specialize in the fighting methods which Bloody Murder represents won’t just show up for battle without their eyes and skills, nor will a corrupted WB just stop being corrupted for a fight / diabolist decide he’s not going to be a demonic psyker for this one fight.


WITH THAT SAID I agree that the wording is highly ambiguous and does not play nice with the way the legion wargear and options are set up. I see the IF deepstrike as a particularly salient example, as IIRC it doesn’t even mention specifically how it’s done (it homers are involved and such).