Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Yes, we all know that ever since they became a playable faction they have now been active all over the galaxy and most recently against the newest wave of Hive Fleet Leviathan, getting several of their number killed (have the Tyranids ever absorbed any Custodes?)

However, are they being used in the wrong way? They are supposedly trained in a whole host of non-combat related areas and skills. Are all these skills being wasted when they act as warriors and bodyguards? Would they not be better if Guilliman used them as delegate rulers of local worlds to enact his reforms while he moves on in his Crusade? Their loyalty is unquestioned and they obey Guilliman because the Emperor through their leader has effectively told them to so they do. They could use all those other skills to try to bring some semblance of sanity to the Imperium, the current form of which they despise. Now obviously I am not saying this would be easy or without problems, but in the longer term it seems like this might be a better way to use them. I know that 40K being a wargame means it would focus on the fighting rather than administration or interstellar politics and reform, but this is a what if scenario.

The Custodes aren't meant to rule, it was never their role.
They were the companions of the Emperor and were his right hand being warriors above all else.
Also, the Custodes don't necessarily care about Guilliman's reforms, they just don't want the Emperor to die, and with the Edict of Restraint gone they can go back to being proactive in their defense of the Imperium. A good number see Guilliman as the Emperor does, a tool to be used to shepherd mankind into the future.

Yup. Custodes can’t and won’t rule the Imperium for much the same reason Guilliman can’t.

In essence, there’s a system already in place. And whilst pretty crap? It has endured 10,000 years of strife. Right now is the time for Fighters to Fight. The day to day running of things isn’t their task. That’s for the High Lords and the Adeptus Terra.

Is it in dire need of reform? Absolutely. But that’s the work of generations, if not outright millennia. And now is not the time to start the spadework in all but the most subtle of ways.

 Gert wrote:
The Custodes aren't meant to rule, it was never their role.
They were the companions of the Emperor and were his right hand being warriors above all else.
Also, the Custodes don't necessarily care about Guilliman's reforms, they just don't want the Emperor to die, and with the Edict of Restraint gone they can go back to being proactive in their defense of the Imperium.

They were meant to be counsellors and advisors and to be versed in many areas. They were not also meant to be warriors yet that is what they became. They may not personally care about Guilliman but they do obey their captain-general who permitted Guilliman to have an audience with the Emperor and walk out with the Emperor's sword. The Custodes accompanying Guilliman were told to protect and assist him, so they do, regardless of what they personally might think or feel. They would be unquestionably loyal delegates as they lack any ambition for personal power, whereas anyone else that Guilliman might appoint might still be tempted by such power, or tempted by Chaos.

Actually Guilliman did have in mind reforms for the Imperium such as trying to rationalize the dating system. He has gathered to himself people of various disciplines and tried to sort of revive a more enlightened worldview, but this is a bubble that exists around him. He doesn't stay put in one place long enough to plant the seeds of lasting reform, which I have argued in the past is also a waste of Guilliman's greatest strength: his talent for logistics and administration.

That’s a cool way to look at it. Is that personal interpretation or from the books? Because if the latter, I’ve got some reading to do.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
That’s a cool way to look at it. Is that personal interpretation or from the books? Because if the latter, I’ve got some reading to do.

There are some Custodes in the Dawn of Fire novels and the Godblight novel. They don't exactly like or trust Guilliman as he is a Primarch, and they similarly don't like or trust the Marines. They blame all of them for what happened to the Emperor. I seem to recall one of them saying that if he had his way, it'd be just the Custodes closing ranks around the palace and them holding the palace vs the rest of the galaxy. However they know this is not feasible and they also obey their captain-general so they follow his orders and cooperate with Guilliman. Therefore Guilliman could in theory design reforms for a world and assign a Custodian to enact them. The problem would be more the issue of the Custodians often lacking tact and empathy for normal humans. However they are also said to be intelligent and multi-talented, so I would not write them off as completely hopeless. Maybe they might have more enthusiasm for such a task if they feel it is reviving the Emperor's original vision for the Imperium.

While the Custodes may be technically skilled at logistics and operations, the main problem with putting them in any kind of governmental leadership role is their lack of basic humanity.

They would get done whatever the Imperium needs of them, but purely from an "The Emperor" needs this so I will get him this no matter the cost. In many situations, this would be worse off for the standard Imperial citizen then the current situation.

Groovy.

It does sound like a plan, but I still stand by assertion that right now, the hour is too dire for such niceties. This is all murderous hands on deck for the foreseeable.

Iracundus wrote:
They were meant to be counsellors and advisors and to be versed in many areas. They were not also meant to be warriors yet that is what they became. They may not personally care about Guilliman but they do obey their captain-general who permitted Guilliman to have an audience with the Emperor and walk out with the Emperor's sword. The Custodes accompanying Guilliman were told to protect and assist him, so they do, regardless of what they personally might think or feel. They would be unquestionably loyal delegates as they lack any ambition for personal power, whereas anyone else that Guilliman might appoint might still be tempted by such power, or tempted by Chaos.

Obeying the command to protect (and watch by the way because that's part of it) Guilliman doesn't mean the Custodes would allow themselves to be placed as rulers of Imperial worlds. They are advisors yes but to the Emperor, and at some times others as well but the idea that they are not warriors first and foremost is a false one.
The Custodes wouldn't ever allow themselves to be placed in a position similar to that of Astartes or even the Primarchs in direct control of worlds within the Imperium, it goes against their ethos and nature.

He doesn't stay put in one place long enough to plant the seeds of lasting reform, which I have argued in the past is also a waste of Guilliman's greatest strength: his talent for logistics and administration.

Yeah, that's literally the point of it. The Imperium *could* get fixed if Guilliman had the time, which he doesn't and he can't ever have it.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Groovy.

It does sound like a plan, but I still stand by assertion that right now, the hour is too dire for such niceties. This is all murderous hands on deck for the foreseeable.

And that is how I see GW doing this with Guilliman. Guilliman's energy and good intentions will be worn away as he makes compromises in the name of immediate necessity, rather than enacting needful long term reforms. He runs around putting out fires and not doing any real reforms beyond those necessary to keep his war machine going, and maybe this is part of the Chaos gods' strategy. They keep him busy putting down rebellions and cults so he cannot really change the status quo in the long term. His attempts to do so (hypothetically such as streamlining the bureaucracy by abolishing redundant Administratum departments that serve no useful administrative purpose anymore) may also provoke backlash from the common citizen as it may mean the loss of privileges and roles they have held for generations.

Being a Primarch he probably could win the reform battle in any one place if he stayed put and devoted his efforts on it long enough, but he doesn't do that as he dashes off to the next world in his Crusade.

The Custodes should never have been made playable, but the cat is out of the bag on that one.

Is it a waste for them to simply guard the Emperor for eternity, kinda but not really. Does it make sense for people who have been made to be bodyguards, down to the genetic level, to be running around the galaxy quite explicitly NOT with the one who they are meant to guard? No.

If I had to make Custodes playable but also wanted to actually keep them somewhat consistent with the previous lore, I would have made Custodes units available to all Imperial codices with a caveat that you could only have 1 unit in your list at a time, but you could have that one unit be anything. So you could have your HQ be a Custodes, a troops, or elite, etc...

This would represent a Custodes individual or unit working with normal forces of the Imperium to enact the Emperor's will. But the Custodes are too rare to make a full army by themselves, so they can only appear as a supplement to an existing codex.

Little question to Custodes players, but I was under the impression that Custodes were gene-enhanced warriors who were basically "customed-made" by the Emperor himself as in each of them is unique and special in their own way (despite of them having broad similarities like being bigger and stronger and probably faster than Space Marines). Now that the Emperor is basically dead, can they make new Custodes? If not, each one of them dying is basically leading them to a quick extinction and despite being almost unmatched warriors and very well equipped the galaxy is full of things that can take one of them down if only through weight of number (or simply superior skill, weaponry, luck, etc.).

epronovost wrote:
Little question to Custodes players, but I was under the impression that Custodes were gene-enhanced warriors who were basically "customed-made" by the Emperor himself as in each of them is unique and special in their own way (despite of them having broad similarities like being bigger and stronger and probably faster than Space Marines). Now that the Emperor is basically dead, can they make new Custodes? If not, each one of them dying is basically leading them to a quick extinction and despite being almost unmatched warriors and very well equipped the galaxy is full of things that can take one of them down if only through weight of number (or simply superior skill, weaponry, luck, etc.).

Yes, they can still make new Custodes, though what the success vs failure rate or the time needed is all kept extremely vague. Previously the Emperor oversaw the creation of each one, but the procedures and specialist personnel still exist. The Custodes production process and tradition is like many things in the Imperium (such as the decree about Rhinos being for Marines), a relic left behind by the Emperor and running on effective autopilot since then since nobody but the Emperor can change or stop things. Their education program for example still seems to be based on 30K Imperial Truth ideals so the Custodes come out with a worldview starkly different from that of the hyper-religious Imperium around them.

There are few details known about the process except that it seems to involve "gene-alchemy" rather than surgery and implantation like Space Marines, and is customized to each individual. There also seems to be a meta-physical component so the Emperor may still be involved, as the Custodes have no psykers whatsoever, don't have dreams normally, and seem to lack true free will (though this may also be gene-engineered like the Kin of the Leagues of Votann).

Basically the Custodes seem to be the ultimate expression of the Emperor's 30K realspace ideals of realspace perfection and rejection of psychics, in contrast to the Grey Knights who seem to be an acknowledgement of the need to deal with the warp, wielding and using psychic powers. The Gate of Bones novel seems to have a message about this in having the Custodes fail to take down a Chaos antagonist due to its daemonic pacts and wards, whereas the physically weaker Sisters of Battle succeed with their faith.

They can indeed.

The Custodes process is tailored to the individual, and that process has been preserved since they were first created.

Marines are more mass produced.

IIRC the Custodes are basically all one-off custom creations meant to do a specific role in the Custodes, and all together are just meant to be peerless warriors/bodyguards.

As close to a robot a being of pure flesh could possibly be. They're not even really human, more like a custom crafted creature which is roughly humanoid and probably has human DNA as its base(but horrifically altered beyond it such that comparison is useless).

This is really why the female custodes is dumb if you think about it, and indeed distinctly male or female would be dumb for them. Custodes should be disturbingly androgenous creatures with nothing in common with humans beyond a rough humanoid body plan. Humanish shaped roid monsters without emotions, only task and purpose. Basically super mutants from Fallout without the dumb.

 Grey Templar wrote:
IIRC the Custodes are basically all one-off custom creations meant to do a specific role in the Custodes, and all together are just meant to be peerless warriors/bodyguards.

As close to a robot a being of pure flesh could possibly be. They're not even really human, more like a custom crafted creature which is roughly humanoid and probably has human DNA as its base(but horrifically altered beyond it such that comparison is useless).

This is really why the female custodes is dumb if you think about it, and indeed distinctly male or female would be dumb for them. Custodes should be disturbingly androgenous creatures with nothing in common with humans beyond a rough humanoid body plan. Humanish shaped roid monsters without emotions, only task and purpose. Basically super mutants from Fallout without the dumb.

There's some smart Super Mutants in fallout.

And honestly, Custodes AND Marines should both be agender monstrosities. But they're just not represented that way.

 Grey Templar wrote:
IIRC the Custodes are basically all one-off custom creations meant to do a specific role in the Custodes, and all together are just meant to be peerless warriors/bodyguards.

I would disagree strongly with you. If you want peerless bodyguards you want them to have a certain aesthetic. I bodyguard isn't just pure function; it also works on appearence. In fact, most bodyguards work on pure appearence. If you can gene-alchemy a human into an immortal super powerful being, you can also make them look pretty much however you want. That's why Custodians look like strong, athletic and rather handsome men who are larger than life in a literal sense as in like 8-9ft tall (and we can assume the women look like strong, athletic and rather handsome women who are also larger than life at 8-9 foot tall). Custodes, like all honor guards, are also a status symbol not just a tool. That's why they are good looking and human looking despite being inhuman in quality; that's why their armors and weapons are ridiculously ornamented; that's why they look expensive. Reducing them to what someone who doesn't know how honor guards actually work think they should work is a bad idea.

Bodyguards should be wearing their armor 100% of the time, so what they look like under that is entirely irrelevant.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Bodyguards should be wearing their armor 100% of the time, so what they look like under that is entirely irrelevant.

No they should not wear their armor all the time. That's ridiculous. At some point, armor is a bit excessive for the task if not even detrimental to it. The Emperor at a cabinet reunion, or in a fancy diner party doesn't need five dudes in massive tank-like power armor; you might want some of these guarding the premises, but, inside, it's another story. A couple of them in fancy clothing with concealed weapons is more than enough; it doesn't crash the ambience, it's a bit more discreat and just as effective against an assassin. It doesn't make the Emperor appear fearful, paranoid or just plain rude. Plus, the Custodes are also used as emissaries and representatives of the power of the Emperor too (as officer in honor guards often do in history and contemporary era). Honor guards like the Custodes are also an integral part of Imperial propaganda. What they look under is thus very important; that's also probably why most Space Marines are actually decently good looking people too. They are Angels of Death not psycho-monsters. Appearence is important.

epronovost wrote:
...that's also probably why most Space Marines are actually decently good looking people too. They are Angels of Death not psycho-monsters. Appearence is important.

I agree with the rest of your post, but citation needed for this one.

For the most part Marines seem to be uncanny valley, malproportioned monsters further scarred by a lifetime of constant combat. Only the Blood Angels and their descendants seem to be routinely described as handsome.

Yeah, no Space Marines aren't good-looking.
The only Chapter that's described as anything particularly striking is the Blood Angels because Sanguinius was pretty and even then there is also a chance that they'll end up as grey-skinned, gaunt Nosferatu-looking dudes because geneseed is like that.

Their baseline genetics will still play a part so an Astartes who was always going to be an Adonis lookalike will still retain that but the enlarged size of all things Astartes is offputting to normal humans.

Iracundus wrote:
Yes, we all know that ever since they became a playable faction they have now been active all over the galaxy and most recently against the newest wave of Hive Fleet Leviathan, getting several of their number killed (have the Tyranids ever absorbed any Custodes?)

However, are they being used in the wrong way?

Yeah, they shouldn't have been a major faction and leave the Golden Throne. You don't send your incredibly rare and hard to make bodyguards in large numbers away from the guy that they are supposed to be protecting. That's like, the opposite of what bodyguards are for and they have forces for that anyway.

In my rather acerbic opinion, the only reason why they are a faction and why GW and having them out fighting is because marines are so overdone that they are no longer the super elite, rare power armoured boys, so they need to bring out even more super elite, even more powered armoured boys to fulfill that niche and sell more models.

Eventually Custodes will become overdone and no longer reflective of what they were supposed to originally be, and GW would have to make another super soldier to replace them.
I can't wait for GW to introduce UberCustodes 3.0, who are all primarch sized with codpiece mounted chainswords so they can do unspeakable things to your wallets.

I think it is valid that Custodes take a proactive approach to bodyguard duties, and seek out and terminate developing threats before they bear fruit in the same manner as an intelligence agency. A purely-static defense waiting to be attacked loses the iniative and gives an advantage to its enemies by letting them chose the time and place of their attack.

However, I agree that seeing an entire army of Custodes deployed in such a manner would be exceptionally rare, and a single squad attached to another force seems vastly more likely. I agree this would have been the more sensible route from a lore perspective. But GW saw the golden ones sold well and cashed in. Shrug.

 Gert wrote:
Yeah, no Space Marines aren't good-looking.
The only Chapter that's described as anything particularly striking is the Blood Angels because Sanguinius was pretty and even then there is also a chance that they'll end up as grey-skinned, gaunt Nosferatu-looking dudes because geneseed is like that.

Their baseline genetics will still play a part so an Astartes who was always going to be an Adonis lookalike will still retain that but the enlarged size of all things Astartes is offputting to normal humans.

Yeah, the whole "good looking space marine" has me perplexed as well. Most space marines I've seen in and models are fairly heavily scarred somewhat haggard looking. And they should, because they are supposed to be soldiers who are routinely deployed against high-threat targets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Haighus wrote:
I think it is valid that Custodes take a proactive approach to bodyguard duties, and seek out and terminate developing threats before they bear fruit in the same manner as an intelligence agency. A purely-static defense waiting to be attacked loses the iniative and gives an advantage to its enemies by letting them chose the time and place of their attack.

That's what assassins are for though, and outright engaging xenos in open warfare is a little more than a "proactive approach."
The only reason why Custodes should directly intervene is if it's close to Terra, as that would be a more direct threat and therefore within their jurisdiction. It makes no sense for them to go halfway across the galaxy to slap an ork when there are plenty of other organizations in the Imperium who can do that both more efficiently and cheaply.

 Haighus wrote:
For the most part Marines seem to be uncanny valley, malproportioned monsters further scarred by a lifetime of constant combat. Only the Blood Angels and their descendants seem to be routinely described as handsome.

Some Space Marines definitely are described as terribly ugly and weird looking, but, for example, Space Marines like Loken was described as odd looking, but beautiful nonetheless as were several other members of the Luna Wolves. The same was said of Emperor's Children and Blood Angels at large. Representations of White Scars makes them look like fairly descent looking asian men. They would not be underwear fashion models nor TV stars, but still "regular looking enough". Even Kharn, if I am not mistaken was described at least once as handsome (but terrifying when angry which he always is now). The Primarchs themselves were almost all handsome and impressive looking so it makes sense that Space Marines, who look like the literal children of their Primarchs, don't look all that bad. Of course, some are ugly as sin because such is life; especially when life is harsh and hyper-violent. You can be odd looking and fairly cute at the same time; looking odd is not semantically opposed to looking good.

From an non-fluff perspective, the fact Space Marines are generally looking like male rugby athletes is part of their appeal and popularity. If they looked and were described as inhumane muscle bound freaks, they would not be nearly as popular.

 Grey Templar wrote:
IIRC the Custodes are basically all one-off custom creations meant to do a specific role in the Custodes, and all together are just meant to be peerless warriors/bodyguards.

Nope.

"We were never soldiers.

Whenever we are seen outside the walls of this place, as rare as that is, it is in our martial aspect. We are clad in gold, just as it was in the earliest days when He was our living captain, and mortals fall on their faces as if before gods. To them, it must seem as if we are wrath incarnate. To them, it must seem as if we were created for destruction and nothing else.

But we were His companions, once. We were the ones in whom He confided. We were His counsellors, we were His artisans. We were the first glimpse of what the species could become, if shepherded aright and unshackled from its vicious weaknesses.

Of course, we were taught to fight. He knew that war would come. It was a necessary part of the ascension, though it was never destined to last for eternity. We were the guardians of a new age, and had to be strong enough to keep it secure.

We failed in that, and now wear the mark of that failure in the black robes that cover our auramite. It is a permanent reminder, replacing the cloaks of blood-red that once adorned our battle-plate. It weighs heavy with every one of us, for we know more of the nature of the fall than most. We still recite the old stories, and we study in the lost archives where we alone are suffered to tread, and so do not have the comforting illusions of ignorance to salve the wound. In a galaxy defined by ignorance, we remember. We cultivate the shards of the thing that was broken, and remain aware of what would have been.

I think sometimes that this knowledge is the most severe of our many burdens. Any brutal soul may fight if he has the goal ahead of him. We fight knowing that our truest purpose lies behind us, and all that remains is faithfulness to an extinguished vision.

But still we preserve. We tend the things of value that have survived. We seek to embody His will in all things. We cleave to His light as the darkness gathers. We interpret, we study, we delve into the philosophy of the ages.

We have many duties. But that is just as it should be, for we are not simple creations. The aeons have changed us in so many ways, but not in that.

We were a thousand things to a thousand souls, but we were never soldiers."
- Shield Captain Valerian

The Custodes were made for more than just war, let alone bodyguarding the Emperor.

I've often wondered if the marine recruitment process is doing more harm than good on the whole. The success rate of recruits seems to be really low with wash-outs typically either dying or being put into roles in service to the chapter. Which means you're taking a lot of extremely promising whipper snappers and killing most of them all for the sake of pumping out a few super soldiers.

Obviously marines have had their successes, but I do wonder how different things might look if chapters started with gene screening first and then made a point of *not* killing their promising recruits and then sent the washouts to the schola progenium or put them into positions on imperial worlds where their skills could be utilized.

Ultimately, the number of promising recruits a chapter actually accepts are probably a drop in the bucket of humanity, but it does make me wonder. What if instead of making a bunch of teens Hunger Games eachother for a chance at maybe being recruited, you instead just... gave the promising among them some training and support and gave them a sergeant rank in some guard regiment?

 Wyldhunt wrote:
I've often wondered if the marine recruitment process is doing more harm than good on the whole. The success rate of recruits seems to be really low with wash-outs typically either dying or being put into roles in service to the chapter. Which means you're taking a lot of extremely promising whipper snappers and killing most of them all for the sake of pumping out a few super soldiers.

Obviously marines have had their successes, but I do wonder how different things might look if chapters started with gene screening first and then made a point of *not* killing their promising recruits and then sent the washouts to the schola progenium or put them into positions on imperial worlds where their skills could be utilized.

Ultimately, the number of promising recruits a chapter actually accepts are probably a drop in the bucket of humanity, but it does make me wonder. What if instead of making a bunch of teens Hunger Games eachother for a chance at maybe being recruited, you instead just... gave the promising among them some training and support and gave them a sergeant rank in some guard regiment?

That is basically Ultramar... but yes, Marine recruitment is typically bonkers and inefficient, but they tend to recruit from forgotten corners that no one much cared about anyway, like feral worlds and underhives. It is explicitly stated in Index Astartes that Chapters often worsen their implantatation success rate by holding to backwards and damaging traditions. This isn't an efficient system. Unsurprisingly given it is an Imperial institution.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
IIRC the Custodes are basically all one-off custom creations meant to do a specific role in the Custodes, and all together are just meant to be peerless warriors/bodyguards.

Nope.

"We were never soldiers.

Whenever we are seen outside the walls of this place, as rare as that is, it is in our martial aspect. We are clad in gold, just as it was in the earliest days when He was our living captain, and mortals fall on their faces as if before gods. To them, it must seem as if we are wrath incarnate. To them, it must seem as if we were created for destruction and nothing else.

But we were His companions, once. We were the ones in whom He confided. We were His counsellors, we were His artisans. We were the first glimpse of what the species could become, if shepherded aright and unshackled from its vicious weaknesses.

Of course, we were taught to fight. He knew that war would come. It was a necessary part of the ascension, though it was never destined to last for eternity. We were the guardians of a new age, and had to be strong enough to keep it secure.

We failed in that, and now wear the mark of that failure in the black robes that cover our auramite. It is a permanent reminder, replacing the cloaks of blood-red that once adorned our battle-plate. It weighs heavy with every one of us, for we know more of the nature of the fall than most. We still recite the old stories, and we study in the lost archives where we alone are suffered to tread, and so do not have the comforting illusions of ignorance to salve the wound. In a galaxy defined by ignorance, we remember. We cultivate the shards of the thing that was broken, and remain aware of what would have been.

I think sometimes that this knowledge is the most severe of our many burdens. Any brutal soul may fight if he has the goal ahead of him. We fight knowing that our truest purpose lies behind us, and all that remains is faithfulness to an extinguished vision.

But still we preserve. We tend the things of value that have survived. We seek to embody His will in all things. We cleave to His light as the darkness gathers. We interpret, we study, we delve into the philosophy of the ages.

We have many duties. But that is just as it should be, for we are not simple creations. The aeons have changed us in so many ways, but not in that.

We were a thousand things to a thousand souls, but we were never soldiers."
- Shield Captain Valerian

The Custodes were made for more than just war, let alone bodyguarding the Emperor.

Thank you, that was the exact quote I was thinking of when I started this thread, but I didn't have the source at hand to quote and cite. That is the quote that made me think whether using the Custodes as warriors is a waste of their potential to do other things that might be of greater significance to the Imperium in the long run such as trying to revive the Emperor's original vision, such as being the delegates to enact specific reforms Guilliman might have for a world.

Of course that assumes the enthroned Emperor after thousands of years of being worshipped as a god has not changed his mind about what sort of Imperium he wants.

Have the Custodes ever considered all flying into the eye of terror and smashing the place up? All of the custodes should be able to do some serious damage although I suppose we have no way of knowing how many planets and what forces would be waiting for them