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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2024/11/26 04:37:16
Subject: How To Do Renegades And Heretics In 10th?
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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The unwashed masses.
The cults and their cultists.
The traitor guard.
PDFs tainted and gone rogue.
The meat and potatoes of the forces of Chaos-humans working against the Imperium, not just Marines.
The obvious places to start with this would be Imperial Guard and GSC, but with more Chaosy flair. But I feel like more can be done than just Guard/Cults with spikes.
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Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2024/11/27 21:31:40
Subject: How To Do Renegades And Heretics In 10th?
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
A garden grove on Citadel Station
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GSC/guard could be a not-as-warp-focused sort of Renegades and Heretics, but the chaos space marines book does have multiple renegade human units now with models too. Cultists and mutant cultists and big mutant cultists, traitor guardsmen, culty command squads, some sort of cult firebrand character? chaos spawn, chaos sorcerers, defiler daemon engines, etc. Chaos beastmen exist I think too? Chaos mechanicus in the negavolt cultists? Renegade and Heretic psykers, that had a plastic model in blackstone fortress.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/11/27 21:32:32
ph34r's Forgeworld Phobos blog, current WIP: Iron Warriors and Skaven Tau
+From Iron Cometh Strength+ +From Strength Cometh Will+ +From Will Cometh Faith+ +From Faith Cometh Honor+ +From Honor Cometh Iron+
The Polito form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?
When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2024/11/28 00:57:15
Subject: Re:How To Do Renegades And Heretics In 10th?
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Mysterious Techpriest
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Edit: Removed due to stating the obvious.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/11/28 01:09:11
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2024/11/28 20:39:50
Subject: Re:How To Do Renegades And Heretics In 10th?
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Fixture of Dakka
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So the tricky thing here is that what I want a renegades and heretics army to be/do varies pretty dramatically from theme to theme, and I'm not sure those themes all lend themselves to a single codex with a few detachments for differentiation. For example:
Organized Cultists with Supernatural Support: I'm doing this as my "alpha legion cult" representing mortals the Legion have provided some training and support to, but whom they're happy to let get more chaos-y than my warband itself wants to be. I'm using GSC rules to make them feel like guerilla fighters using sabotage, explosives, ambushes, etc. I'm using blood letters and daemonette models represented by purestrain rules (invuln saves, fast, stabby), kitbashed mutants and beastmen represented by acolyte hybrid and metamorph rules, psyker models represented by magus rules, etc. It works out pretty well. Just re-skinning alien stuff as daemonic instead.
Traitor Guard: As in guard that are pretty much just mortal but taking orders from new management. These guys can be represented perfectly well with normal guard rules. Maybe reskin some imperial agents or bullgryn as chaos-y things for a splash of chaos flavor.
God-Specific Mortal Servants: So not necessarily imperial guard at all. More just normal-ish humans that are somehow in service to one of the dark powers. Here, I want things like Tzeentch cultists performing magic rituals to smite the enemy, Nurgle forces with some sort of plague mechanic, Khorne hordes that empower daemonic(?) allies by acting as canon fodder, and Slaaneshi cultists with weird and exotic weaponry. All of which is potentially complicated and probably too complicated/specific to share a book with each other. Basically, I want to really lean into fluffy rules for each god, but doing something other than a generic "Nurgle's mortals are tougher, Khorne's mortals stab better," etc. type rule means that it's hard for those rules to share a book even if the actual units could potentially look very similar for various gods/themes.
And if you're going that far into god-specific flavor, I almost just want those rules to be in a non-mortals-specific book for that god. Like, I want those Khorne mooks dying to give blood tokens to blood letters. I want that Tzeentch ritual to tie into something like Thousand Sons cabal points. Etc. And now we're obviously steering into the question of whether god-specific mortals should actually be their own army or just a part of a Thousand Sons book or a daemons book or what have you.
Empowered Mortals: Sort of the chaos version of sisters or admech. Non-space marine mortals that actually stand a chance on the galactic stage thanks to their mutations, psychic powers, and whacky chaos engines. So instead of a bunch of power-armored sisters with bolters or hotshot-toting scions, you have waves of basically cultists backed up by a chaos champion with superhero-tier mutant strength or combat tentacles or psychic powers. And while they don't have the ability to field a bunch of basilisks and russes, they *can* send a squad of hulking mutants to tear *your* tanks apart.
I'd be hesitant to work on this version in 10th, however, because I think a lot of the appeal of such an army is in coming up with cool, flavorful, bespoke characters and making them your own. This is the faction that lets you take the wide variety of human experiences in the 41st millenium and give them the combat chops to show up on the main stage. But we're currently in 10th edition where customization is discouraged and most units only get 1 or 2 special rules, so the edition itself might not be well-suited to this type of faction.
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ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2024/11/29 01:03:36
Subject: Re:How To Do Renegades And Heretics In 10th?
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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Wyldhunt wrote:Empowered Mortals: Sort of the chaos version of sisters or admech. Non-space marine mortals that actually stand a chance on the galactic stage thanks to their mutations, psychic powers, and whacky chaos engines. So instead of a bunch of power-armored sisters with bolters or hotshot-toting scions, you have waves of basically cultists backed up by a chaos champion with superhero-tier mutant strength or combat tentacles or psychic powers. And while they don't have the ability to field a bunch of basilisks and russes, they *can* send a squad of hulking mutants to tear *your* tanks apart.
I'd be hesitant to work on this version in 10th, however, because I think a lot of the appeal of such an army is in coming up with cool, flavorful, bespoke characters and making them your own. This is the faction that lets you take the wide variety of human experiences in the 41st millenium and give them the combat chops to show up on the main stage. But we're currently in 10th edition where customization is discouraged and most units only get 1 or 2 special rules, so the edition itself might not be well-suited to this type of faction.
Agreed that this both sounds the most interesting, and the least matching 10th Edition's foibles.
But given that I don't much LIKE GW's approach to 10th... I think I'll think on this approach.
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Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2024/11/30 11:50:12
Subject: How To Do Renegades And Heretics In 10th?
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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You can represent a lot of different things with a power fist profile, it might be a tentacle, a crab claw or an ether blade. You shouldn't be choosing whether you give your models a crab claw or a blade based on what it should be good at anyway, it's just rule of cool unlike weapons with defined fluff like a chainsword vs a powerfist where each should have strengths and weaknesses.
I think Detachments can do a lot of what you want Wyldhunt. You really just need to make additional ones for Astra Militarum if you want a detachment that spreads plague and summons Nurgle Daemons.
Slaaneshi weapons might be tricky but it could just be a shoot better detachment, nothing saying you cannot make more powerful upgrades that cost points as well or replace heavy bolters with noise masters or what have you. As long as a parking lot isn't overpowered within the rules you build, you don't even need to ban the use of things like Basilisks even if that's not what you want people to do with your rules, as long as it's not way better than what is intended then it's not so bad.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2024/12/02 01:00:26
Subject: How To Do Renegades And Heretics In 10th?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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To fit the 10th ed paradigm, you'd probably have to do something like a series of profiles that balance against each other.
ie
Choose one of the following for your empowered mortal:
Shredder tentacles A7 WS3+ S4 AP0 d1
Crushing claws A3 WS3+ S6 AP-1 d2
Slashing appendages A5 WS3+ S4 AP-2 D1
You could then have a few enhancements that are like mutation boosters:
The warping change of chaos
May choose one mutation each turn, rather than at the beginning of the game.
Warp edge
Devastating wounds
that sort of thing.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2024/12/02 07:14:02
Subject: How To Do Renegades And Heretics In 10th?
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Fixture of Dakka
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vict0988 wrote:You can represent a lot of different things with a power fist profile, it might be a tentacle, a crab claw or an ether blade. You shouldn't be choosing whether you give your models a crab claw or a blade based on what it should be good at anyway, it's just rule of cool unlike weapons with defined fluff like a chainsword vs a powerfist where each should have strengths and weaknesses.
Agreed that mutations could potentially have one or two generic profiles that get a broad variety of concepts across. So you might want a weapon that lets you smack around tanks and a profile that lets you mulch hordes, but you probably don't need to distinguish between an anti-horde tentacle arm and an anti-horde bird talon or whatever.
I think Detachments can do a lot of what you want Wyldhunt. You really just need to make additional ones for Astra Militarum if you want a detachment that spreads plague and summons Nurgle Daemons.
I think you'd probably have to make the detachments do more heavy lifting than is the norm. For comparison, the Brood Brothers Auxilia detachment for GSC basically:
* Lets you ally in models from a different faction.
* Lets those models grant your GSC units +1 to-hit.
What I want from, let's say, a Khorne detachment is something like:
* Khorne daemon allies.
* When enemy or mortal ally units die, gain some Khorne dice. Spend Khorne dice for some World Eaters/Blood Tithe style effects that buff daemons, bring back slain daemons, etc.
That's somewhat more complicated. That second bullet point could be an army's whole army-wide mechanic on its own. And further, having access to cheap infantry units to generate Khorne dice might make something like an infantry squad much more valuable than one with, say, a Nurgle infection mechanic that lets them infect enemy units in melee and steadily do damage over time (or whatever). And the Khorne mechanic might be weaker than a Tzeentch mechanic that lets them generate Fate Dice or Cabal Points as part of an action. That problem isn't unique to these hypothetical detachments, but being so complicated and so different from one another (and thus difficult to put a points cost on) gives me pause.
Ideally, representing armies with such radically different flavors and mechanics would either call for multiple different books/splats, or else some relatively complicated army customization rules like the ones renegade had in 7th edition.
And that would still leave a few big questions. Like, is this faction meant to represent traitor guard specifically, or just mortal rabble with fewer tanks but more psykers/mutations/local knowledge? If you're basically just making spiky guard, it's hard to figure out what to cut to avoid just making them guard+. Dropping Voice of Command for a different mechanic probably buys you some room in the complexity/power budget, but only so much.And if you're going for chaosified civillians, you probably start getting into similar territory as my Alpha Legion Cultists where you may be better off just using GSC rules.
Actually, writing detachment rules for GSC intended to turn your stealer cultists into chaos cultists might not be a terrible approach.
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ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2024/12/02 16:27:30
Subject: How To Do Renegades And Heretics In 10th?
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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Why use Khorne dice when you have Stratagems? Give them fight on death as a detachment ability and you have your bloodthirsty killers. Add something more the the Detachment ability or make the Stratagems efficient enough to make up for the weakness.Strats to Summon a unit when you lose a unit, heal nearby unit when a unit loses a model, charge a unit that charges one of your units, etc.
Generating points based on actions is impossible as GW removed it as part of dumbing the game down for 10th. But you could have 3 units performing an action serve as the necessary juice to fire a big magic missile in a Stratagem. It seems like you are very married to the cabal points and blood tithe points, which is fair enough, those are cool mechanics but sorry to see I fail to see the necessity.
I don't think adding 5 datasheets to a Detachment is crazy.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2024/12/04 21:54:52
Subject: How To Do Renegades And Heretics In 10th?
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Fixture of Dakka
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vict0988 wrote:Why use Khorne dice when you have Stratagems? Give them fight on death as a detachment ability and you have your bloodthirsty killers. Add something more the the Detachment ability or make the Stratagems efficient enough to make up for the weakness.Strats to Summon a unit when you lose a unit, heal nearby unit when a unit loses a model, charge a unit that charges one of your units, etc.
I'm open to it. I just worry that it's hard to give the army its own distinct personality/avoid being "spiky guard" if you that route. Plus, strats have been really hit and miss with their ability to provide flavorful rules this edition.
It seems like you are very married to the cabal points and blood tithe points
Nah. Not married to them. Just tossing them out as examples of flavorful mechanics tied to those gods that have helped distinguish their factions in the past.
To me, "khorne guard" who are just guardsmen with strats to stab better aren't super compelling. I wouldn't turn my nose up at a grotmas calendar detachment like that, but I wouldn't want a whole codex of just "guard but make them stabby/tough/fast/give them a 6++."
If you're going to do the god-specific approach, put some meat on the bone. Make it juicy.
If you just want generic traitor guard, that can probably be handled with normal guard rules or *maybe* a detachment to swap out some keywords.
If you want to do organized guerilla rebels with a little supernatural support, I'm using GSC rules for that.
If you want to do powerful mortals that have tentacles and psychic powers instead of power armor or robot legs, see previous post.
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ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2024/12/17 02:45:56
Subject: How To Do Renegades And Heretics In 10th?
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Grovelin' Grot
California
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Didn't all of those units get moved to Heretic Astartes?
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