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A member on another board posted this first quote, and my reply to him is shown below.

Eltnot, I'm new at 40K, so help me understand why a player cannot purchase an Empty Fish, then embark a Sniper Team in it. The Fish has it's own Entry in the Codex and a Seperate Cost. It lists a restriction against carrying XV Battlesuits, which implies to me that it can carry any Unit with the Type Infantry that is not an XV, otherwise the restriction is extraneous fluff, since the two units that list Fish contain no XV's. According to page 62 of the BGB, spare transports can carry any infantry unit that doesn't have a Specific Restriction.

Oh crap.  I was going to come here and tell you that because it's described as "Transport: Devilfish" it counts as a dedicated transport, but apparently according to the rules, that's only if it is purchased for a unit.  By examining a bunch of Codices, it appears that the Tau Codex specifically of all the ones I own (all of them..) does not state ANYTHING remotely like the following:

Certain Space Marine units have the option of selecting a transport vehicle.  These vehicles do not use up any additional Force Organisation chart selections, but otherwise function as separate units.  The vehicles described here may only transport the units they are selected with, and may not be used to transport other units during the course of a battle.  See the Warhammer 40,000 rules for details of dedicated transports.  Land Raider Crusaders may be selected by some units as dedicated transports.  See the entry in the Heavy Support section for details.  Because Land Raider Crusaders are such formidable vehicles they do not count as dedicated tranports for the purposes of holding objectives and scoring Victory Points.  Treat them as normal vehicles instead.

Page 38 Black Templars Codex

Certain Space Marine units have the option of selecting a transport vehicle.  These vehicles do not use up any additional Force Organisation chart selections, but otherwise function as separate units.  The vehicles described here may only transport the units they are selected with, and may not be used to transport other units during the course of a battle.  See the Warhammer 40,000 rules for details of dedicated transports.  Land Raiders may be selected by some units as dedicated transports.  See the entry in the Heavy Support section for details.  Because Land Raiders are such formidable vehicles they do not count as dedicated tranports for the purposes of holding objectives and scoring Victory Points.  Treat them as normal vehicles instead.

Page 35 Space Marine Codex

Transports are always taken as an upgrade for another unit and may only transport the unit it was bought for.  Independant characters that join a unit with a transport may also travel in it.

Page 30 Daemonhunters Codex

A Chimera can transport up to 12 models.  Remember that Ogryns take up two spaces each.  A Chimera is always selected as a transport upgrade for another unit and may only transport the unit it was bought for.

Page 45 Imperial Guard Codex

Transports are always taken as an upgrade ofr another unit and may only transport the unit it was bought for.  Independant characters that join a unit with a transport may also travel in it.

Page 33 Witch Hunters Codex

Note that the Tau Codex simply states:

The Devilfish may carry up to 12 models.  It may not carry any troops in XV Battlesuits.

Page 36 Tau Codex

which is TOTALLY different from the above cited examples, yet nearly exactly the same as:
 

The Falcon can carry 6 models.  It may not carry an Avatar, Wraithlord, Wraithguard or a squad containing an anti-grav platform.

Page 14 Eldar Codex

Now, no one argues that an Eldar player couldn't take empty Falcons as Heavy Support choices and use them to carry any troops you want, so by the rules, Tau players would also therefore be allowed to take empty Devilfish as Troops choices and use them to carry any troops they want.  The fact that their unit entry states "Transport: Devilfish" does not prevent this, as the rules for transports on page 63 of the main rulebook specifically give examples of transports that may be chosen as separate Force Organisation choices which, we must accept, Devilfish are.

You appear to be right, it doesn't say that it can't be taken as it's own troops slot. That's just an assumption people have made from the previous book.

So go for it!

Posted By mauleed on 07/03/2006 6:19 AM

You appear to be right, it doesn't say that it can't be taken as it's own troops slot. That's just an assumption people have made from the previous book.

So go for it!

1. Just because it does not say you can't sdo something does not mean you can. As I recall Mauleed you have skewered many a poster because they were trying to make a point based on "It doesn't say I can't!" Your response usually being something along the lines of...." It also doesn't say I can't still take a 2ed exarch either."

2. That aside, it realy depends on what the codex says YOU CAN DO. I don't have the dex here but if the fish has its own entry in the troops section (similar, I guess to a land raider or falcon) and no limiting language then.... You are correct. The fish is only a dedicated transport when taken as a such for a FW squad.

ender502

The fish has a Troops FOC symbol to the left, above the picture of the fish itself. It was so subtle I didn't notice it either. And the Firewarriors do NOT buy a fish as a squad.

"Transport: If it numbers twelve models or less (including drones), the team may be mounted in a Devilfish troop carrier,"

Note that no where does it actually BUY the carrier. It isn't even an option to "select" it as a transport. They just can be mounted in the thing. I can mount troops in a Heavy Support Falcon or Land Raider and that doesn't change them. So the Tau have a troops choice that is just an 80pt vehicle that can also mount firewarriors.

The disadvantage of this is that now Tau Troops choices have to worry about Devilfish taking up slots.

The advantages are for deployment you can deploy the fish. The deploy the guys inside the fish. You can also count 2 scoring units running around in it at the end of the game, and it can pick up snipers as the poster that started Godhead looking asked.

Once again, great spot Godhead.

Ender:

This certainly isn't an "it doesn't say I can't" argument. He's saying that a devilfish is listed as a troops choice, and anything listed as a troops choice can be taken to fill a troops slot (and then when taken can transport whatever it likes, as it is not a dedicated transport).

The old listing for a devilfish said it was only a dedicated transport. This listing does not.

So I think he's technically correct.

Out of curiosity sake... what does it say for pathfinders?

Wait, so does this mean that you can have at most three Firewarrior squads mounted in Devilfish in a standard force organization chart?  (I don't have the codex with me right now).

Interesting.

5 Devilfish without upgrades = 400 points

Best Combat Patrol Force Ever?

- Oaka

Posted By Iorek on 07/03/2006 9:00 AM
Wait, so does this mean that you can have at most three Firewarrior squads mounted in Devilfish in a standard force organization chart?  (I don't have the codex with me right now).

Interesting.

Well one could argue that the language of the fire warrior entry allows devilfish to also be taken as dedicated transports. So you could have some dedicated devilfish and some general ones.

HEH.

Try 3 at 120pts each that can move up to 12" and shoot smart missiled from behind buildings at you.

And yes, they have a neat little symbol next to their entry that indicates it is a troops choice just as the Tyranids and Space Marines have for everything that is a troops choice do.

Now we have the interesting situation of, the wording for firewarriors. May be mounted in. It never states they may buy a transport. Just that they can be mounted in one. Marines may select a transport and then in the next page it gives all the rules for selecting transports including to check the rules since these are dedicated transports (and the exception to that for the Land Raider).

Looking at it again, I see a something that blatently contradicts it as well. Along the side in light grey everything has their FOC slot named next to them. Firewarriors have troops, kroot do too. Devilfish says transport,and it says Transport: Devilfish Troop Carrier. Both of these indicate it is a transport. But never indicate it is a dedicated one. I can see the line about no XV suits for stopping suits joining units and getting in, but it clouded the issue.

So, they show it to be one thing and contradict that in the same entry and they don't bother being nice like the Space Marine Codex and writing how it works.

So why not make it obvious it is not an FOC slot if it isn't?

This tactic would never survive real world play, so its discussion is pointless. Do you ever expect to meet someone who will allow you to take empty devilfish?

If that's what the rulebook says, then yes, it's as valid as running a force with multiple empty land raiders. We are discussing that possibility. What is your take on the rules?

I'd allow my opponent to field them like that. They aren't 'that' deadly.

Since they are 'transports' they wouldn't be able to hold or contest table quarters or objectives... they can't do THAT much damage to make the kind of impact that a full unit of FW would... should be a fairly easy game.

If other codexes (Eldar, SM) have non-dedicated transports and opponents "allow" their owning players to use them, why should Tau non-dedicated transports not be "allowed?"

Players who remember the old codex might have a problem but it would be a specious complaint because lots of other stuff got changed in the codex upgrade. The point of upgrading codexes is to change things. Are people going to complain that everything in the new codex which is different should not be "allowed?"

I don't see much of an advantage in non-dedicated transports except if they are scoring units.

Well, you could use them as a taxi service, but I don't see the Tau having much need for that.

Well, you could use them as a taxi service, but I don't see the Tau having much need for that.

Amen to that. I would rather have a unit of FW and a dedicated Dfish than a Dfish taxi as a Troop choice. Heck I think I'd rather have Kroot than a Dfish taxi.

A non-dedicated transport would be scoring, and would add some serious options for a Tau player trying to preserve VPs.

I'd use them extensively if it was a generally accepted interpretation. As is, I'd prefer to go with the flow rather than argue about it every game and be DQ'd randomly from tournaments (see 6 Dread Atlanta GD debacle).

Looking at it again, I see a something that blatently contradicts it as well. Along the side in light grey everything has their FOC slot named next to them. Firewarriors have troops, kroot do too. Devilfish says transport,and it says Transport: Devilfish Troop Carrier. Both of these indicate it is a transport. But never indicate it is a dedicated one. I can see the line about no XV suits for stopping suits joining units and getting in, but it clouded the issue.

It says it is a transport, but it's clearly in the Troops section. It is a transport, we know it's a transport, what it does't say anywhere is that it is a dedicated transport. The rules on page 62 of the rulebook clearly allow for circumstances where a vehicle is a non-dedicated transport and occupies its own Force Organisation point.

I don't see much of an advantage in non-dedicated transports except if they are scoring units.

Well they would be scoring units. If it's not a Dedicated Transport Vehicle then it's just a Vehicle.

I also believe that Fire Warriors may still take Devilfish as Dedicated Transport Vehicles.

Sometimes a unit entry in a Codex book will include a transport option, allowing a vehicle to be selected along with the unit. These transport vehicles are directly assigned to that particular unit and are known as dedicated transports. Other transport vehicles are chosen separately and occupy a Force Organisation chart slot (for example, Eldar Falcons), and can be used to provide ad hoc transportation to any unit that can embark on it.

The line labeled "Transport:..." in Fire Warriors is clearly a "transport option", in the same way that EMP grenades are an equipment option, therefore Devilfish may still be attached to Fire Warrior squads as Dedicated Transports, in addition to being taken by themselves as separate Force Organisation choices.

For the record, I personally would never consider taking this in a tournament army. It's not worth the likely sports/comp hit.

But it certainly appears to be legal.

So can you use it to carry kroot? (why, who knows, but I'm curious). I'd guess so.

Antonim, my take on the rules is that they just forgot to put that line in. They are only human. Devilfish were sure meant to be only taken as dedicated transports.

But then again, I also play that terminators wear terminator armour, and tyranid warriors are immune to instant death, even if the strength is MORE that double their toughness, and I also play that tigurius doubles the range of fear of the darkness to 24 inches...

Remember: Play the game, not the rules.

DaIronGob, its not that they are particually deadly fielded like that, I personally feel its a rather weak choice. But the fact remains that its obviously not what was intended, and is very, very close to cheating. You will never play in a GW with that. You will never play in a tournament with that. It would be ruled against you.

Unless all the people you play are members of dakkadakka, and are rules lawyers, who dont mind such edited, then this army will never see the light of day.

Mauleed, you wouldn't take a sports or comp hit. You would never even get to play in the tournament. As son as the opponant saw what you were doing, he would call over a ref, and you would be kicked out, regardless of what the rules actually say or not.

Mauleed, you wouldn't take a sports or comp hit. You would never even get to play in the tournament. As son as the opponant saw what you were doing, he would call over a ref, and you would be kicked out, regardless of what the rules actually say or not.

Very rare is the occasion where I go to a tournament and the judges don't know that I'm very likely to have a much deeper grasp of the rules than they do. So I personally probably wouldn't have a hard time actually pulling this off in a tournament.

But again, I wouldn't actually do it.

And who knows. Perhaps they actually intended it to be a non-dedicated transport. Unless you've got ESP or are in contact with all the authors, you have no way to know.

For burnthexenos:
Who are you to say what their intention is? Do you know the Games Designers who wrote it, or are you just psychic? What are you going by to come to these magical conclusions if not the rules, and why would that make you some kind of authority? Do you even know the purpose of this forum? Hint: It's not a "this is my opinion of how you should play the game", but rather a rules discussion forum. You call it bullsh*t (shouldn't that be a warning? I know I got warned for less), but WHY wouldn't a tournament allow this? It's not unbalanced, and it's not prevented by the rules as they are written, just by your arrogant blustering with nothing to back it up.

No one asked you if you'd play someone with this, you're free to not play whoever you want, but go post that somewhere else.

Mauleed, I dont know about that. If say, you were playing in a GT, the GW judges are very likely to just come over, and make an instantaneous decision that non dedicated devilfish are not allowed. I know I would say the same to other random things that shouldn't be allowed, such as tyranid warriors been instant killed.

Godhead, I know the intention of many things. Its just common sense. As we all know, GW sometimes makes a mess of writing clear rules. They are only human after all. There are many, many different possibilities within the army books, and the rulebooks are codexes would have to be huge to cover every single one. GW mistakingly had the idea that we would all be able to use a bit of common sense to resolve these things.

These kind of things remind me of a warhammer fantasy game I had where I tried to convince my opponant that the comet of casandora does not last forever...

I know the intent was that terminators wear terminator armour. I think you would have to be fairly damn stupid not to realise that the intent was that Devilfish must be taken with fire warriors.

No, I cant prove it. I just know that was the intention. Look at all the other transports in the game, they have the line abotu dedicated transports in them. The only tanks that do not have dedicated transport rule, and are still able to transport tanks, are heavy support choices.

Do you really think GW would decide that Tau should be allowed to take Devilfish as troops choices? No other army in the game has this ability, except armoured company...and they are, well, and armored company!

All I can say is if you have opponants that accept this, then fine. Dont ever expect to play anywhere else with it.

Im actually wondering whether anyone actually tries any of this half baked stuff on internet forums.

Well, the name for it is...

"Transport: Devilfish Troop Carrier"

Though that isn't a strong arguement and probably shows intent, but Mauleed is right.

Just add this to your "You can do it, but don't be surprised at your sports score" list.

Mahu, I know its legal, but I wouldn't play anyone using that list.

And ill say it again: You dont need to worry about your sports score...you will not get to use it in any GT or other other tournament!

Posted By burnthexenos on 07/03/2006 1:37 PM
Im actually wondering whether anyone actually tries any of this half baked stuff on internet forums.

Actually, I don't think so.  We just talk about it for funsies, and in case we run into someone else who might try to pull this off.  There are those that like to splash mud in our discussions even though they're just theoretical.

Um... nobody has answered my question yet. What does it say about devilfish in the pathfinder entry?

K,

I don't have my codex available, but here's the wording that came up during the "does the devilfish have scout" thread:

Team: Consists of 4-8 Pathfinders and a Devilfish

Transport: Pathfinders must select a Devilfish troop carrier...


There, NOW I've answered your question

Mauleed, I dont know about that. If say, you were playing in a GT, the GW judges are very likely to just come over, and make an instantaneous decision that non dedicated devilfish are not allowed. I know I would say the same to other random things that shouldn't be allowed, such as tyranid warriors been instant killed.

Again, if I'm playing at a GT, the GW Judges are very likely to know exactly who I am and that:

a. I know the rules very well

b. I'll be blasting them all over the Internet if they screw up a rules call

....so generally they'll pause a moment and think before making some sort of sloppy ruling.

But that's not likely to happen with everyone. And in a round about way that's also why I try not to use things like this in actual tournaments. I would not want my Internet infamy to affect how a judge treats me or my opponent (particularly if it's to my advantage).

But would I complain if someone did this to me? Not at all.

Note that the Spanish FAQ stated (my spanish is bad, so I cannot quote) that the Pathfinder Devilfish does not get the scout ability.
From the entry, it does not sound like the Pathfinder's Devilfish is separate, at all. It would be a dedicated troop transport.