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I heard somewhere (maybe here) that Epic may be brought back, anyone know anything about this?

Highly doubt it since they spent so much time ripping the guts out of Specialist Games and spreading all the staff either throughout GW or into an unemploymeny line.

I've not heard of anything and I'd be quite surprised if they did do anything with Epic

What about it needs to 'come back'? Compared to 40k, it's got better rules, cheaper rules, better balance, more unique armies, and, at least until recently, cheaper models. Everything but Marines, Guard, Eldar, and Orks get rebalancings every month or two, and even the big four get caught up in rule reviews that are supposed to happen once a year (though this has been stretched out a bit due to budget cuts, it's still much better than what we see with 40k). Excepting the difficulty of finding other players and the quality of models, it's not only a better game than 40k now, it's also getting better faster.

Posted By Gotchaye on 07/04/2006 7:50 PM
What about it needs to 'come back'? Compared to 40k, it's got better rules, cheaper rules, better balance, more unique armies, and, at least until recently, cheaper models.

No support. An erratic release schedule. No official plans to expand the game and no support of the existing rules.

I like the new Epic as well but Gw cut this game loose some time ago and not many people play it because of this lack of support.

What support do you need? You can buy models off the Online Store or Ebay, you are allowed to play the games instore, the Specialist Games official forums privide a reasonable level of fan advice if you want it and there is "Fanatic Online" which publishes PDFs weekly and includes Epic stuff occasionally. If you want more high quality, but unofficial, stuff then http://epic40k.com and many sister sites provide hours of browsing (Google for "Epic Games Workshop" and see how many hits you generate.

If you want to walk into a GW and have a Tigger bounce up to you and sell you the latest gimick then, no, that is not available, and also there may well be no more new releases for the foreseeable future (although Tyranid moulds exist and the models may still pop out at some point), but is that such a problem?

I personally took up Epic for the first time using some el-cheapo SM figs I was given a few months back. Since then I downloaded the free rulebook and fleshed out my army with the odd purchase from Ebay (and even some brand new full-price Drop Pods from the Warhammer World store) and have enjoyed a good few games.

It all depends what you want for your hobby really I suppose. There's enough support to have an ejoyable time playing the game (and more), but if you want to involve your life 100% in playing the game to the exclusion of all else, then you may struggle!

Epic has a pretty comprehensive set of figures available from GW - all SM, IG, Ork and Eldar figures if I recall - and Tau are pretty well supported by Forgeworld, if you have the cash for it that is. Admittedly, it would be nice to see Chaos and Tyranids out there too, btu don't let that discourage you from picking up what is possibly GW's best rules-set.

Eldar and SM armies are generally available on the cheap on ebay. Expect to pay more for Guard and a *lot* for Tyranid bases.

On top of all the suggestions above Epic is the only game you won't hear people whine about Space Marines.

Space Marines are the weakest army in Epic.

Posted By Osbad on 07/05/2006 5:33 AM
What support do you need? You can buy models off the Online Store or Ebay, you are allowed to play the games instore, the Specialist Games official forums privide a reasonable level of fan advice if you want it and there is "Fanatic Online" which publishes PDFs weekly and includes Epic stuff occasionally.

I'm happy as hell that the way that GW supports the game works for you.

I myself don't really care (as I have all the Epic minis I'll ever want) but many new players look at the companies support as an indication of what the company plans to do with the game and given that GW has a history of dropping Epic like it was plague infected the current level of support makes people nervous. People don't like buying into dead game systems. You might like fan created lists and content and buyoing old figs but some people don't.

Indeed you an get minis off of eBay. But you shouldn't have to shop from eBay to get figs. Nor should the pricing of the new range be so exorbidant that you need to buy old figs from eBay.

he official FAQ was removed from the hands of fan developers and hasn't been updated since then due to lack of action by GW. The content that gets released from Fanatic "Magazine" is often rehashed content from WD or older magazines.

I'm sure that this works for some people and if it does then great but probably as many or more people look at the current situation and walk away from the game.

Posted By torgoch on 07/05/2006 7:06 AM
Admittedly, it would be nice to see Chaos and Tyranids out there too, btu don't let that discourage you from picking up what is possibly GW's best rules-set.

Folks before you all go off making rash assumptions...I have 8000 pts of painted Chaos minis. I used to be the FAQ writer for the current ruleset and I designed the Chaos list in conjunction with Jervis so I am familiar with the game.

I just don't like the way that GW is handling the system as I know that it has driven people away from playing the game.

We went from  bi-weekly Epic gaming to now not having played a game in almost  a year. And this decline was at the precise point that GW announced "changes" in how Specialist Games was run, and stopped moving forward on new official lists.

Deride the outlook all you want but people look at what GW is doing with all of the Specialist Games releases and are poutting their money in other supported games.

I just want to back Pixelgeek on all his points. I playtested some of the Chaos list for him and before that was a big fan/playtester of his Orkamedes Gargant list, he knows what he is talking about. on the Specialist Games Forums we didnt always see eye to eye but I respect him and I will say he was one of the army champions that was closest to the fanatics in terms of getting his list finished and published. If he says thats the way it is with specialist games then you can believe it.

 and I also gotta say as a cash weilding customer I do watch to see if a product is supported and it definitely is a factor in where I spend my money. GW gets alot less from me now because they are putting so little into the products I like.

Just my $.02 - I've been semi-interested in Epic for years, but stayed away because it's always seemed to be the ugly stepchild of the 40k universe. Even Inquisitor seemed to get more attention from GW during its run. Over the last decade I've gone from knowing a couple of Epic players to knowing none at all. All this has lead me to assume Epic is just another good GW idea that got dropped along GW's constant struggle to kill off the existing fan base and make its product into games for teenage boys who don't have enough money to buy the stuff in the first place.

That's the beauty of Epic, I think - it's underground. You don't have a bunch of screaming fanboys demanding that their army be given this and that, and so there isn't anything like the market pressure we see in 40k towards codex creep and more/better Marines. Well, I take that back, there's definitely a trend towards better Marines, but, speaking as an Eldar player, they actually need it.

It also just feels right. With the exception of the Tau (I have creative differences there), I think that every army, experimental or otherwise, actually fits its fluff as well as the Epic rules will allow. The problem of fan pressure for completely unfluffy capabilities just doesn't exist, and it seems like most players, being members of a smaller, closer community, are much more open to the idea of nerfs for the sake of theme. I'd wager that, as far as 40k goes, you'd have a lot of Marines crying bloody murder if the totally unjustified power of the Assault Cannon got reined in.

I thought only the beared smelly fat guy of the local gaming club who sat in the back of the store talking about comics played epic...guess I was wrong.

Chuck

Posted By Gotchaye on 07/05/2006 9:15 PM
The problem of fan pressure for completely unfluffy capabilities just doesn't

Uhhhh... yah thats not really the case. Mind you its not difficult in the 40K universe to find some piece of fluff that doesn't fit with the other established fluff.

Like Chaos Thunderhawks. :-)

God I hate them. Hates them I tells ya!!

Someday I'll have to look into the latest version of epic. I've got something like 30,000 pts of figures scattered over different armies. A group of about 12 of us played very heavily for a number of years, from Adeptus Titanicus up throught Titan Legions. I liked a lot of the models that they put out for the new version, but we all hated the rules, it was just too different from what we had been playing. Too many troop types were lumped together, too many vehicles were suddenly the exact same thing, despite having spent the time collecting and painting the different models. If I someday get the time, I'll wade through the current version and see if it's closer to what we like. I hate the thought of all those minis sitting in trays gathering dust.

I really miss the card system. So easy to make up an army, and keep track of victory points.

Posted By Gotchaye on 07/05/2006 9:15 PM
It also just feels right. With the exception of the Tau (I have creative differences there), I think that every army, experimental or otherwise, actually fits its fluff as well as the Epic rules will allow.

I had played back during the Space Marine box set and had thought about giving the new one a go around.  I thought Tau always sounded better for Epic, what with the seeker missles and long range focus.  Seemed like they would fit more into an Epic setting.  Having not read the rules for them yet, what is the/your problem with them in Epic?

inquisitor_bob> On top of all the suggestions above Epic is the only game you won't hear people whine about Space Marines.

Space Marines are the weakest army in Epic.

Wrong.  Spacemarines are invincible in Epic! 

For no game balance or fluff reason they take twice as many suppression counters to break, theyre twice as good as comparable units in other armies.  They have a 1+ command roll.  They most always go first.  Teleporting terminators are untouchable. Drop troops of any kind are untouchable and they have a perfectly tailorable list of small units (Could play all teleporting terminators or all spaceborne troops etc. they don't have to build the gigantic unwieldly 30+ formations.).  3 units of predators will always outshoot 1 big unit of say, Leman Russes, because of the firing mechanics of 3 units versus 1.  In the standard tournament style games outlined in the base rules (with 4 objectives each) our marine armies went undefeated versus every other race.  (Marines vs Marines was fairly dry and IG versus Orks was a better game.) We played over 30 games with Chaos, Orks, IG, and Siege IG and we have almost every unit in all those lists painted.

EPIC is an AWFUL system, and that's why no one plays it, furthermore the cost of the figs is outrageous, and I don't jump on the cost issue very much. Anyone who played Adeptus Titanicus, and or Space Marine and the new system will tell you what a bunch of junk the current one really is.  The old mechanics of Objective counters, Order chits, company cards, detachment cards, breakpoint and morale, and assault/fire mechanism should never have been changed.  If they redo Epic, which I also think is Highly dubious, they would have to return to the original system (or closer to that) for it to have any merrit at all.

For no game balance or fluff reason they take twice as many suppression counters to break, theyre twice as good as comparable units in other armies.  They have a 1+ command roll. 

Thus spaketh someone who doesn?t know what he?s talking about.  So for no fluff reasons they also get an And They Shall Know No Fear rule in 40k?  And they?re supposed to go first, they?re the best of the elite.  What they are not in Epic is a bunch of uber-troops who can stroll across the battlefield and win.  

<?  

As for the cost, you don?t get much material for your money in Epic, but the cost of putting a usable force together is cheaper than it is for 40k.  If you?re just interested in playing the game, that?s what really matters.

 

Bombot> Thus spaketh someone who doesn?t know what he?s talking about.  So for no fluff reasons they also get an And They Shall Know No Fear rule in 40k? 

Totally different issue 40k vs Epic. The point is, marines in Epic break core mechanics, including suppression (twice as good), and command roll (no point in rolling if the roll is 1+ is there).

If you want to make up stories why marines ought to break core mechanics in Epic go ahead.  Go pick a 14 year old to have that fluf argument with.  While on the topic ask them who is better Batman or Superman, because that's about as relavent as the "no fear" rule you drug into this thread.

Both rules make the Marines harder to break, in their own ways.  I find it odd that you can?t spot the connection.

<?  

Your command roll comment makes it clear you don?t fully understand the mechanics.  That number can be modified, you know.

Augustus: You would absolutely hate Warmachine. or even MTG. The
whole point of the special rules in games like that is that they can and
will override certain core mechanics.

I think Cosmic Encounter was like that, too.

Augustus-

Tried your marines against any space elves lately???

 

Marine forces can be very tough against IG lists and tend to hold their own against ork players, but the consensus is they are slightly underpowered.

 

Bombot> Your command roll comment makes it clear you don?t fully understand the mechanics.  That number can be modified, you know.

 

No bombot, your refusal to admit that it is inherently advantageous and breaks the game demonstrates that you don't understand the implications of the mechanics, and how they make the game slanted.  The number never gets modified for teleporting or space assaulting marine armies.  I'll lay it out for our studio audience:

 

Marines have a 1+ command roll, if they teleport/deepstrike/spacefall, there is no way for it to be modified, there is NO RISK they will fail, ever, the most common modification of a command roll comes from maintaining the initiative and taking a second action roll.  It doesn't take a command roll to teleport, you just put the troops on the board outside of the normal turn sequence and see if any get a blast marker, which also doesn't matter because it takes 2 to suppress a marine unit.  Furthermore, when used with a space marine commander, who can order multiple units to assault with a single command roll whole armies of deepstriking marines can move in a single activation, the very first one in a turn/game.  There is no single unit (with the possible exception of a warlord titan) which can survive a terminator assault, not even a big ork mob or a huge IG formation, the marines come down, attack, win the assault, get double "no save" hits for the amount of kills they won by effectively making each hit worth 2 or 3 and drive off the enemy formation.  Every time, and to make it worse, there are no army restrictions on the marine list, a player is free to essentially take the deathwing to every game with no limitations, but doesn't even need to as 2 or 3 units of terminators (or a thunderhawk full of assault marines) is plenty to gut an opposing armies largest and most critical formations.  Even AAA doesn't defend against spacedrop, it is absurd.  Units can't even overwatch against spacedropping or teleporting marines as they come down outside the normal turn sequence and it takes an action to go into overwatch. 

 

Unlike any other army, the marines can essentially take 6 activations with commanders and multiple units, from the complete safety of off board and pick their strike zone anywhere on the table all they have to do is make the 2+ roll to retain the initiative and have 2 commanders.  Games vs ground pounder Marines are really tough but Spacebourne Marines aren't really worth playing against, they just let you settup, and win! I have seen 1 turn games with the tournament scenario as outlined in the book where the opposing force doesn't even get to move anything except for routing models.

Malfred,

I played warmachine, I have a huge Kahdoor force.

I don't hate it, but your assesment is correct.  When people ask me what warmachine is like I say it is like 40K but with no troops, only with dreadnoughts, and characters.  It is exclusively character hammer, where the special powers determine the game outcome, not the position or the play, move up use special power etc. and then win.  Very little tactics outside of playing the special power(s), many of which invaldiate the stats of a unit(s).

It's a cute game, I actually think it is almost exactly similar to original Mageknight (They even had techno Golem guys with wizards and giant steam golems, and they were out there first... hmmm).

Pack your eldar together into nice formations. Pray the termies try to assault/FF.  Shootout ensues.  Termies die.  Eldar continue their repast of cheese and wine...

 

 

jfrazell> Tried your marines against any space elves lately???

No, I own the Craftworld Eldar book, and have all the models, but I gave up on the game after playing about 15 strait Marine victories (I played both sides Marines never lost).  I must admit, becuase of their force org chart, command roll, and special options, like move shoot move, and space drop units and swooping hawks (teleporters essentially) I think the Eldar might be able to give the marines a fight, the reason I bought some, but once again, that is because they wrote special case rules for them that break the mechanics outlined in the core book.  Bad games design.

jfrazell> Marine forces can be very tough against IG lists and tend to hold their own against ork players, but the consensus is they are slightly underpowered.

The concensus is wrong.  In the outlined scenario in the core book, there is not an army that can defeat an entirely Spacebourne Marine army. Even under more sportsmanlike "intent" conditions of play teleporting and space dropping is game breakingly advantageous and double suppression and the certainty of 1+ command rolls ensure the marines will always have a deck stacked in their favor.

 

jfrazell> Pack your eldar together into nice formations. Pray the termies try to assault/FF.  Shootout ensues.  Termies die.

Pray they assault? Shootout ensues? The owning player gets to pick the position of the marines, they always set up in a way to maximize their BtB, and minimize enemy FF shots, FF (fire fight) shots are only a very short distance, besides if you pack up, as in models Base to Base, then you will get murdered by whirlwinds... Besides terminators have heavy armor, so they still get rerolled 4 saves right? So at an average Firepower of 4+ to hit in a firefight, it takes 8 attempts to kill a terminator? Easily avoided with the short FF range...

I do think the Eldar list was better, but I just don't see your simple scenario holding any water.

(BTW I hate the EPIC assault mechanics... Stuff with Multiple shooting weapons, like 3 or 4 gets 1 shot in a firefight... The loosing side takes routing "No Save" hits for the differnece in kills ensuring small units break large ones... Marine bikes destroy Leman russes, from the front... Yea)

Play them in tournament conditions. Marines tend to fade by turn 3.  Your analysis does not include games against Eldar or their sublists (Samm Hain uber alles!), Tau, Nids, Necrons, or any of the chaos lists.

 

 

The Eldar have a high initiative which makes the Terminator attacks all the more risky. Plus they have tons of good flak, which hinders the Thunderhawks. Those are partly what gives Marines trouble.

The drop pod assault can really pack a punch but once you?ve done the initial assault (which you have to plot before the opponent sets up), you?ve got to lump after the rest of the opponent?s force on foot. Same with Terminators. I like the tactic, but it has its flaws.

Posted By Augustus on 07/06/2006 11:49 AM

Wrong.  Spacemarines are invincible in Epic!

Which makes it difficult to reconcile the fact that they have the worst win loss record in the Epic Battlestats site.