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Eyjio wrote:
I can't believe people even think Necrons are going to be in the top 10 armies, let alone OP. Every single Imperium faction army, even if they stick to a single faction, outguns Necrons. S4 AP-1 bolters don't make up for the loss of special weapons in an edition where most tanks are T7 W10 3+. Necrons cannot deal with vehicles at all; where guard can take 6 lascannons for just over 150 points, Necrons can take 2 - and that's their best possible anti-tank option. Against combat MCs, there is literally no good way to deal with them in the entire Necron index.

Necrons have an army gutted of units good against any large models, with poor combat, middling shooting at best, low range and no options. There are scarier feather dusters.

This is just flat out incorrect. Tanks being T7 means nothing, our weapons still wound on 5s. As far as firepower, Tomb Blades kick out 24 AP-2 shots at 12" from 6 dudes, are fast and durable, and will hurt anything they shoot at pretty well. Immortals (both variants) are extremely potent and solid. Destroyers are as good as ever, especially backed up by a Destroyer Lord. 10 shots with rerolls at AP-3 doing D3 damage a piece for 200 points on a durable, regenerating, fast unit is good.

And poor combat? Flayed Ones are still ridiculous, because they can deep strike and charge, and can be backed up by My Will Be Done and Imotekh. Lychguard, the Warscythe variant, are solid alone with how melee works now, because they can Night Scythe their way into the board and charge, doing 2 damage per hit at AP-4, and can be further buffed by Anrakyr. Wraiths are still good. Not as OP as they were, but plenty of AP-1 attacks on fast durable models is scurry. Than praetorians. They're still moderately deadly. Then you have Ctan shards...

Necrons aren't the scariest thing out there, no. But you are highly under selling them, good sir.

I don't get that math on Wraiths. They don't have RP or LM. Sure, they have a 3+ Inv, but that's it. When you can buff RP to twice a round on a 4+ I can't figure out how the wraiths match that, never mind exceed it. What am I missing?

 krodarklorr wrote:
This is just flat out incorrect. Tanks being T7 means nothing, our weapons still wound on 5s. As far as firepower, Tomb Blades kick out 24 AP-2 shots at 12" from 6 dudes, are fast and durable, and will hurt anything they shoot at pretty well. Immortals (both variants) are extremely potent and solid. Destroyers are as good as ever, especially backed up by a Destroyer Lord. 10 shots with rerolls at AP-3 doing D3 damage a piece for 200 points on a durable, regenerating, fast unit is good.

And poor combat? Flayed Ones are still ridiculous, because they can deep strike and charge, and can be backed up by My Will Be Done and Imotekh. Lychguard, the Warscythe variant, are solid alone with how melee works now, because they can Night Scythe their way into the board and charge, doing 2 damage per hit at AP-4, and can be further buffed by Anrakyr. Wraiths are still good. Not as OP as they were, but plenty of AP-1 attacks on fast durable models is scurry. Than praetorians. They're still moderately deadly. Then you have Ctan shards...

Necrons aren't the scariest thing out there, no. But you are highly under selling them, good sir.

It is absolutely correct. Tanks being T7 makes a huge difference. You raise Tomb Blades - with Gauss Blasters and assuming rapid fire range (the best possible situation for them), you would need 17 of them at 42 points a head to kill a 100 point Razorback - 714 points in total. Destroyers fare worse still - you would need 24 of them at 43 points a head, or 1043 points in just destroyers. Neither of these is a realistic option at all. Meanwhile, Guard HWT lascannons need 11 units to kill that same tank, at 264 points total. Even if the IG player decides they particularly hate themselves and fires plasma guns from Scions at tanks at 24" range, they still only need 354 points worth of units to kill a Razorback. You could take 6 full 10 man units of Scions with plasma guns for the cost of those 17 Tomb Blades, and they would be over twice as good.

Are you going to deep strike flayed ones then try and make a 9" charge? I can't imagine deploying next to an enemy and taking a ~27.8% chance to make a charge is a good idea myself. You can't deep strike in Imotekh, so he's going to have to walk across the board or take an expensive transport option to get anywhere near close enough to the Flayed Ones. Lychguard are not favoured in any 1 on 1 combat, and you can't beam Anrakyr down with them. That's ignoring the fact that all of these units are still poor against vehicles for their cost, and won't touch vehicles at all if the enemy knows the first things about bubble wrapping.

So no, I'm not underselling them at all. They cannot deal with large models with any kind of efficiency. They are poor in combat, one of the worst factions in the game for it. They have low range. Their shooting is not in any way impressive compared to almost any army. They have limited options to do anything beyond spamming bolters. They are outgunned, outlived, outnumbered and outfought by the vast majority of armies. They are not going to be a good army in 8th edition, at least until their points are drastically changed.

Eyjio wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
This is just flat out incorrect. Tanks being T7 means nothing, our weapons still wound on 5s. As far as firepower, Tomb Blades kick out 24 AP-2 shots at 12" from 6 dudes, are fast and durable, and will hurt anything they shoot at pretty well. Immortals (both variants) are extremely potent and solid. Destroyers are as good as ever, especially backed up by a Destroyer Lord. 10 shots with rerolls at AP-3 doing D3 damage a piece for 200 points on a durable, regenerating, fast unit is good.

And poor combat? Flayed Ones are still ridiculous, because they can deep strike and charge, and can be backed up by My Will Be Done and Imotekh. Lychguard, the Warscythe variant, are solid alone with how melee works now, because they can Night Scythe their way into the board and charge, doing 2 damage per hit at AP-4, and can be further buffed by Anrakyr. Wraiths are still good. Not as OP as they were, but plenty of AP-1 attacks on fast durable models is scurry. Than praetorians. They're still moderately deadly. Then you have Ctan shards...

Necrons aren't the scariest thing out there, no. But you are highly under selling them, good sir.

It is absolutely correct. Tanks being T7 makes a huge difference. You raise Tomb Blades - with Gauss Blasters and assuming rapid fire range (the best possible situation for them), you would need 17 of them at 42 points a head to kill a 100 point Razorback - 714 points in total. Destroyers fare worse still - you would need 24 of them at 43 points a head, or 1043 points in just destroyers. Neither of these is a realistic option at all. Meanwhile, Guard HWT lascannons need 11 units to kill that same tank, at 264 points total. Even if the IG player decides they particularly hate themselves and fires plasma guns from Scions at tanks at 24" range, they still only need 354 points worth of units to kill a Razorback. You could take 6 full 10 man units of Scions with plasma guns for the cost of those 17 Tomb Blades, and they would be over twice as good.

Are you going to deep strike flayed ones then try and make a 9" charge? I can't imagine deploying next to an enemy and taking a ~27.8% chance to make a charge is a good idea myself. You can't deep strike in Imotekh, so he's going to have to walk across the board or take an expensive transport option to get anywhere near close enough to the Flayed Ones. Lychguard are not favoured in any 1 on 1 combat, and you can't beam Anrakyr down with them. That's ignoring the fact that all of these units are still poor against vehicles for their cost, and won't touch vehicles at all if the enemy knows the first things about bubble wrapping.

So no, I'm not underselling them at all. They cannot deal with large models with any kind of efficiency. They are poor in combat, one of the worst factions in the game for it. They have low range. Their shooting is not in any way impressive compared to almost any army. They have limited options to do anything beyond spamming bolters. They are outgunned, outlived, outnumbered and outfought by the vast majority of armies. They are not going to be a good army in 8th edition, at least until their points are drastically changed.

My apologies, I forgot the most important rule: don't feed the trolls.

You do you, buddy. We'll see how awful Necrons are on the tabletop.

 krodarklorr wrote:
My apologies, I forgot the most important rule: don't feed the trolls.

You do you, buddy. We'll see how awful Necrons are on the tabletop.

Great, jump straight to the personal insults.

I've provided the maths and the facts of the matter. You've called me names. For some reason, I remain unconvinced. But sure, we'll see how people are feeling in 3 months after they've underperformed at the BAO and NOVA.

I think this thread is done.

Some people are thinking the crons are too good.
Some think they are balanced.

Lots of things have changed for ALL armies.

Honestly, the grass is always greener. Really.
That is why it is a cliche.

I suggest to everyone, to actually play multiple armies.
It helps.

Can we end this now? Thanks.

Eyjio wrote:
I can't believe people even think Necrons are going to be in the top 10 armies, let alone OP. Every single Imperium faction army, even if they stick to a single faction, outguns Necrons. S4 AP-1 bolters don't make up for the loss of special weapons in an edition where most tanks are T7 W10 3+. Necrons cannot deal with vehicles at all; where guard can take 6 lascannons for just over 150 points, Necrons can take 2 - and that's their best possible anti-tank option. Against combat MCs, there is literally no good way to deal with them in the entire Necron index.

Necrons have an army gutted of units good against any large models, with poor combat, middling shooting at best, low range and no options. There are scarier feather dusters.

I think Necrons will be in the Top 10, Top 10 is a pretty large margin.

Top 10 is already like mid tier stuff.

Um, yeah, most people are now talking about how the army actually works, with a few holdouts on the OP/Nerf convo. Nothing wrong with talking about the list in general.

Personally, I love the potential to stack buffs on the RP. 20 Warriors with a Crypek and a Ghost Ark is really tough. Rolling RP on a 4+ twice a turn? Yikes. Sure it's pricey, but it also puts out 60 dice at close range, so it's all defensive. Really, an army build around that would probably start with two warrior squads at 20, two Crypteks, and one Ghost Ark. Multiple Arks is silly expensive.

*edit* wait, 1 Cryptek would be lots. I was thinking the buff was for one unit not both...

I'm also liking the Ghostwalk Mantle a lot. Paired with Lychguard or Flayed ones and you can wreak havoc in the backfield.

Oh, and Annihilation Barges at 150-ish points each? That's a great deal IMO.

Eyjio wrote:
Destroyers fare worse still - you would need 24 of them at 43 points a head, or 1043 points in just destroyers.

Actually, Destroyers are 63pts a head.

 Fenris-77 wrote:
Um, yeah, most people are now talking about how the army actually works, with a few holdouts on the OP/Nerf convo. Nothing wrong with talking about the list in general.

Personally, I love the potential to stack buffs on the RP. 20 Warriors with a Crypek and a Ghost Ark is really tough. Rolling RP on a 4+ twice a turn? Yikes. Sure it's pricey, but it also puts out 60 dice at close range, so it's all defensive. Really, an army build around that would probably start with two warrior squads at 20, two Crypteks, and one Ghost Ark. Multiple Arks is silly expensive.

*edit* wait, 1 Cryptek would be lots. I was thinking the buff was for one unit not both...

I'm also liking the Ghostwalk Mantle a lot. Paired with Lychguard or Flayed ones and you can wreak havoc in the backfield.

Oh, and Annihilation Barges at 150-ish points each? That's a great deal IMO.

Yeah, a lot of our buffs actually affect multiple units, so you just need one HQ to make the most of its buffs.
The only exceptions I could see is the Overlord specific buff which only affects one unit, and the CCB's wave of Command.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:

Eyjio wrote:
Destroyers fare worse still - you would need 24 of them at 43 points a head, or 1043 points in just destroyers.

Actually, Destroyers are 63pts a head.

Yeah, they are going to have to clarify on the list building; it seems really odd that some units have to pay for their basic equipement.
Consider the void raven; since they are only unit who has void lances, void lances cost 0 points. But what if other units could take void lances? Would they still be 0? It doesn't really seem consistent.
If points per model column was named "excluding wargear options" that would have been much clearer, as that would indicate that you don't pay extra for what the model comes with, only for any options that you decide to give it.

Is it ok to ask them about that on Facebook? Not sure if we can, due to our info stemming from leaks.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Yeah, they are going to have to clarify on the list building; it seems really odd that some units have to pay for their basic equipement.
Consider the void raven; since they are only unit who has void lances, void lances cost 0 points. But what if other units could take void lances? Would they still be 0? It doesn't really seem consistent.

But they can't. And if they make one that can, they'll cost it properly so that it still costs 0 for that unit. What's your point?

I agree to some extent that it seems a bit disassembled, like I'm being given an IKEA unit instead of a standard unit to build on, but they've clearly done this for consistency, and it took me one read-through to get used to. It's not that bad.

Models don't seem to actually *come* with anything. If you accept that, it's easier to accept the rest. The Sydonian Dragoon now has all its three options listed. But I'm not gonna run them with both a lance, a rifle and a pistol. I run them either with lances or with rifles, pistols are the extra on either of those two builds. I pick the things I want on them, and pay for that.

I'm not sure what it is you want to ask about on Facebook?

 vipoid wrote:

Eyjio wrote:
Destroyers fare worse still - you would need 24 of them at 43 points a head, or 1043 points in just destroyers.

Actually, Destroyers are 63pts a head.

Whoops, I blanked and though they were 23 points base for a minute there - much too used to the 7e points. So, even worse then - 1512 points to kill a Razorback.

 Purifier wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Yeah, they are going to have to clarify on the list building; it seems really odd that some units have to pay for their basic equipement.
Consider the void raven; since they are only unit who has void lances, void lances cost 0 points. But what if other units could take void lances? Would they still be 0? It doesn't really seem consistent.

But they can't. And if they make one that can, they'll cost it properly so that it still costs 0 for that unit. What's your point?

I agree to some extent that it seems a bit disassembled, like I'm being given an IKEA unit instead of a standard unit to build on, but they've clearly done this for consistency, and it took me one read-through to get used to. It's not that bad.

The problem is that in the case of destroyers you have a unit who has to pay for the weapons they come with, just because that exists as an option for other units. Which means that a destroyer is effectively 63 points. That's a pretty steep price ofr a single model.
Now, it could be that its 43 points base are totally reasonable given it's stats. That's a possibility. It's just at a first glance it seems to be pretty high for what you're getting.
That's why I think they should clarify if the points per model listed include their base weapons.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Yeah, they are going to have to clarify on the list building; it seems really odd that some units have to pay for their basic equipement.
Consider the void raven; since they are only unit who has void lances, void lances cost 0 points. But what if other units could take void lances? Would they still be 0? It doesn't really seem consistent.

But they can't. And if they make one that can, they'll cost it properly so that it still costs 0 for that unit. What's your point?

I agree to some extent that it seems a bit disassembled, like I'm being given an IKEA unit instead of a standard unit to build on, but they've clearly done this for consistency, and it took me one read-through to get used to. It's not that bad.

The problem is that in the case of destroyers you have a unit who has to pay for the weapons they come with, just because that exists as an option for other units. Which means that a destroyer is effectively 63 points. That's a pretty steep price ofr a single model.
Now, it could be that its 43 points base are totally reasonable given it's stats. That's a possibility. It's just at a first glance it seems to be pretty high for what you're getting.

You're not actually being serious? You think they just forgot about the weapon cost and costed them like a fully kitted unit? Whether or not they did a good job costing them, the fact that they had to pay for their base weapon clearly played a part in the decision to cost them like they did. If the weapon cost was embedded in the unit, it would have said 63 points. That should be completely blindingly obvious.

The example I gave, Sydonian Dragoons, they are the only ones with access to lances and their specific rifles in the game and they still have a cost. Maybe because they know that those weapons could very well be shared by others later, and they're planning for that? But right now, I'm adding points for no real reason.

Alright, fair enough. I guess it's pretty clear then.
I'll try running destroyers and see how they perform.
As I said, it could be that their base stats alone are worth 43 points in practice.

The Destoryer is a 3W T5 model with self healing, BS 3+ and rr1's to hit with a gun that's S5, -3, D3. I don't think 63 is at all out of line in the context of 8th.

An attack Bike with HB is worse in pretty much every regard at costs 55pts.

As a Necron player, let me tell you... I think the new Reanimation Protocols are actually a bit of a restriction on us.

Early playtesting has shown that RP doesn't do much for say 10-Warrior squads, as has been the norm in the past. Once most are killed, you can even Morale the rest away. Overall, the estimated pickup (on a 5+, = 1/3 of dead units) just isn't much when the unit is being focused. Thus, the only choice for Necron players to efficiently take advantage of the new RP system is to use 20-warrior squads. We pretty much HAVE to use large squads to get efficient use out of RP. This means that we have a LOT of points already spoken for. It also hurts a lot of other units. For instance, I don't see much point in putting a 10-Warrior squad inside of a Ghost Ark when the RP just isn't as good as on a 20-Warrior squad.

Reanimation Protocols is a pivotal ability for Necrons. Without it, we're just on-par troops with little Heavy defense. RP is what pulls Necrons up. Now, in order to utilize it, we have to lock down points and maximize unit sizes.

The new rule seems flavourful, but I think the lack of any equivalent rule on characters will really hurt.

Asura Varuna wrote:
Lots of comments in this thread of "Just wipe them out in a turn". It actually takes quite a few shots to kill 20 T4 4+ models in a single turn, especially so where there are no blasts to punish clumping in cover, or any AP4 guns to simply negate their cover saves. Are there going to be many armies that are capable of doing that, especially at lower points levels. Remember also that a CP can be used to auto-pass a morale test, in case you were planning on relying on that to destroy a unit. If you do attempt to clear a unit in a single turn and fail, you're then left with the dilemma of attempting to destroy a fresh unit, or splitting your fire between the diminished one, but leaving yourself with a new half-dead squad to start reanimating. Throughout the battle, your ability to remove entire squads will decrease as well.

Out of interest, what would people's plans be for destroying warriors wholesale? It'd take about 120 bolter/pulse rifle shots to destroy a unit out of cover, and you'd have to find a way to bring all of those to bear on the same target (may be difficult due to line of sight, and range). There are no large blasts to remove models en masse. I'm quite certain my Tau army would struggle to consistently destroy whole squads in a single turn, and that's even ignoring other threats from the Necron list.

This right here is the truth. Saying "just wipe them out" is a bit misleading. Using most or all of a turn to wipe a unit out is possible sure, but that's still a tactical loss to waste that much firepower. This new animation protocols is more powerful than current, not less. It's like getting your old FNP, but every turn for the rest of the game.

Eyjio wrote:

It is absolutely correct. Tanks being T7 makes a huge difference. You raise Tomb Blades - with Gauss Blasters and assuming rapid fire range (the best possible situation for them), you would need 17 of them at 42 points a head to kill a 100 point Razorback - 714 points in total. Destroyers fare worse still - you would need 24 of them at 43 points a head, or 1043 points in just destroyers. Neither of these is a realistic option at all. Meanwhile, Guard HWT lascannons need 11 units to kill that same tank, at 264 points total. Even if the IG player decides they particularly hate themselves and fires plasma guns from Scions at tanks at 24" range, they still only need 354 points worth of units to kill a Razorback. You could take 6 full 10 man units of Scions with plasma guns for the cost of those 17 Tomb Blades, and they would be over twice as good.

Are you going to deep strike flayed ones then try and make a 9" charge? I can't imagine deploying next to an enemy and taking a ~27.8% chance to make a charge is a good idea myself. You can't deep strike in Imotekh, so he's going to have to walk across the board or take an expensive transport option to get anywhere near close enough to the Flayed Ones. Lychguard are not favoured in any 1 on 1 combat, and you can't beam Anrakyr down with them. That's ignoring the fact that all of these units are still poor against vehicles for their cost, and won't touch vehicles at all if the enemy knows the first things about bubble wrapping.

So no, I'm not underselling them at all. They cannot deal with large models with any kind of efficiency. They are poor in combat, one of the worst factions in the game for it. They have low range. Their shooting is not in any way impressive compared to almost any army. They have limited options to do anything beyond spamming bolters. They are outgunned, outlived, outnumbered and outfought by the vast majority of armies. They are not going to be a good army in 8th edition, at least until their points are drastically changed.

It only take 300 points of heavy destroyer to kill a razorback in a round, 300 points of lychguard with scythe will do it as well with room to spare. Bring the right tool for the job and all of that. Also that 11 man 264 point unit is way more fragile than either of the two necron options for the same task, a 120 points of scarabs is all it takes to turn them into chalk outlines.

You talk about efficiency but don't seem to understand it very well, so let me let you in on a little secret, everything in 8th ed has a counter, and that counter will be very efficient against the targets it was designed to be used on. Also Every army has access to every style of counter. This means battles in 8th ed will be less about the army and more about the comp used and how it compares to your opponents comp. Army is flavor and perhaps a few units that are really good at their specialty, and perhaps a few that aren't. That is also why I'm skeptical of tier list in 8th ed, the army matters but comp will completely eclipse it, and because comp is dependent on your opponents comp their won't be one "TOP" list for each faction, because you will have to change your comp to deal with your local meta.

 Grimgold wrote:

It only take 300 points of heavy destroyer to kill a razorback in a round, 300 points of lychguard with scythe will do it as well with room to spare. Bring the right tool for the job and all of that. Also that 11 man 264 point unit is way more fragile than either of the two necron options for the same task, a 120 points of scarabs is all it takes to turn them into chalk outlines.

You talk about efficiency but don't seem to understand it very well, so let me let you in on a little secret, everything in 8th ed has a counter, and that counter will be very efficient against the targets it was designed to be used on. Also Every army has access to every style of counter. This means battles in 8th ed will be less about the army and more about the comp used and how it compares to your opponents comp. Army is flavor and perhaps a few units that are really good at their specialty, and perhaps a few that aren't. That is also why I'm skeptical of tier list in 8th ed, the army matters but comp will completely eclipse it, and because comp is dependent on your opponents comp their won't be one "TOP" list for each faction, because you will have to change your comp to deal with your local meta.

Actually is more than 400 points, not 300. Heavy destroyers hit with 7/9, damage with 2/3,pointso 7/2 wounds and needs 10 wounds to destroy the razordback. You'll need and average of 5'5 heavy destroyers to destroy a razordback, 75 point apiece, nearly 415 points.

Talking about eficiency, for an imperial a láser canon cost about 40-50 points, devastators, centurións and several vehicles are costed in this way, eldar lances, on a warwalker are in the same point brake, dark lance drukari are even better, at 34 points the unir, 7 of them kill a razordback on average, at a mere 240 points. Tau crisis with 3 fusión and deep strike are good, you need 3 at 18" to destroy a razordback, again 300 points (comander with 4 fusión are even better).

The best antivehicle necron unir, for the points, are the heavy destroyers, and at 75 points they are not as efficient at killing vehicles as their counterparts.

Before 8th, the necron was probably the best army to destroy vehicles thanks to the gauss rule. Now we are good against elite infantry, inmortals are one of the best units for that in the whole game with a cheap RF F5 AP-2 for just 17 points. But against vehicles and monstruous creatures, for now, there is no necron efficient units, there a lots of them that can put the pain, of course, but none at a efficient points cost, at least compared with other shooty armys as the imperial pones, tau or eldars.

 Kaeldran wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:

It only take 300 points of heavy destroyer to kill a razorback in a round, 300 points of lychguard with scythe will do it as well with room to spare. Bring the right tool for the job and all of that. Also that 11 man 264 point unit is way more fragile than either of the two necron options for the same task, a 120 points of scarabs is all it takes to turn them into chalk outlines.

You talk about efficiency but don't seem to understand it very well, so let me let you in on a little secret, everything in 8th ed has a counter, and that counter will be very efficient against the targets it was designed to be used on. Also Every army has access to every style of counter. This means battles in 8th ed will be less about the army and more about the comp used and how it compares to your opponents comp. Army is flavor and perhaps a few units that are really good at their specialty, and perhaps a few that aren't. That is also why I'm skeptical of tier list in 8th ed, the army matters but comp will completely eclipse it, and because comp is dependent on your opponents comp their won't be one "TOP" list for each faction, because you will have to change your comp to deal with your local meta.

Actually is more than 400 points, not 300. Heavy destroyers hit with 7/9, damage with 2/3,pointso 7/2 wounds and needs 10 wounds to destroy the razordback. You'll need and average of 5'5 heavy destroyers to destroy a razordback, 75 point apiece, nearly 415 points.

Talking about eficiency, for an imperial a láser canon cost about 40-50 points, devastators, centurións and several vehicles are costed in this way, eldar lances, on a warwalker are in the same point brake, dark lance drukari are even better, at 34 points the unir, 7 of them kill a razordback on average, at a mere 240 points. Tau crisis with 3 fusión and deep strike are good, you need 3 at 18" to destroy a razordback, again 300 points (comander with 4 fusión are even better).

The best antivehicle necron unir, for the points, are the heavy destroyers, and at 75 points they are not as efficient at killing vehicles as their counterparts.

Before 8th, the necron was probably the best army to destroy vehicles thanks to the gauss rule. Now we are good against elite infantry, inmortals are one of the best units for that in the whole game with a cheap RF F5 AP-2 for just 17 points. But against vehicles and monstruous creatures, for now, there is no necron efficient units, there a lots of them that can put the pain, of course, but none at a efficient points cost, at least compared with other shooty armys as the imperial pones, tau or eldars.

It takes 2.8 stalker with heat rays to kill a razorback that's 327 points if i am not mistaken.

If you really think Necrons were the best army at destroying tanks at any point, you've never done the math for it.

Last edition the efficiency was around when tanks were above 100 points, and those are the ones nobody took outside Knights. Anything lower and Gauss wasn't very good.

 Kaeldran wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:

It only take 300 points of heavy destroyer to kill a razorback in a round, 300 points of lychguard with scythe will do it as well with room to spare. Bring the right tool for the job and all of that. Also that 11 man 264 point unit is way more fragile than either of the two necron options for the same task, a 120 points of scarabs is all it takes to turn them into chalk outlines.

You talk about efficiency but don't seem to understand it very well, so let me let you in on a little secret, everything in 8th ed has a counter, and that counter will be very efficient against the targets it was designed to be used on. Also Every army has access to every style of counter. This means battles in 8th ed will be less about the army and more about the comp used and how it compares to your opponents comp. Army is flavor and perhaps a few units that are really good at their specialty, and perhaps a few that aren't. That is also why I'm skeptical of tier list in 8th ed, the army matters but comp will completely eclipse it, and because comp is dependent on your opponents comp their won't be one "TOP" list for each faction, because you will have to change your comp to deal with your local meta.

Actually is more than 400 points, not 300. Heavy destroyers hit with 7/9, damage with 2/3,pointso 7/2 wounds and needs 10 wounds to destroy the razordback. You'll need and average of 5'5 heavy destroyers to destroy a razordback, 75 point apiece, nearly 415 points.

Talking about eficiency, for an imperial a láser canon cost about 40-50 points, devastators, centurións and several vehicles are costed in this way, eldar lances, on a warwalker are in the same point brake, dark lance drukari are even better, at 34 points the unir, 7 of them kill a razordback on average, at a mere 240 points. Tau crisis with 3 fusión and deep strike are good, you need 3 at 18" to destroy a razordback, again 300 points (comander with 4 fusión are even better).

The best antivehicle necron unir, for the points, are the heavy destroyers, and at 75 points they are not as efficient at killing vehicles as their counterparts.

Before 8th, the necron was probably the best army to destroy vehicles thanks to the gauss rule. Now we are good against elite infantry, inmortals are one of the best units for that in the whole game with a cheap RF F5 AP-2 for just 17 points. But against vehicles and monstruous creatures, for now, there is no necron efficient units, there a lots of them that can put the pain, of course, but none at a efficient points cost, at least compared with other shooty armys as the imperial pones, tau or eldars.

It takes 2.8 stalkers with heat rays to kill a razorback that's 327 points if i am not mistaken.

As I see it you would need three stalkers to take out a razorback in one go on average dice.

This is 513 points - so hardly that efficient.

Go with the twin assault cannon option. For the same points as about 8 marines you get a gun with 12 shots at strength 6 and -1 AP, 10 wounds over 8 and T7 vs T4. Plus movement 12 vs movement 6 and smoke launchers. I guess the heavy effect makes it slightly weaker if you have to drive around rather than hunker down somewhere but depending on objectives that may not be necessary.

I struggle to see what Necrons have that is very efficient. RP seems to be upsetting people across the web but to my mind its only really good in hypothetical 240 points vs 240 point match ups. In a real game its going to be relatively easy to kill 20 warriors in two turns even with a round of RP.

Not 20. necrons have L10, is good, but it isn't inmunity. 15 warriors killed in a round (probably 14 is enought) and the whole unit is destroyed before any RP. 6 crisis with triple flammer will destroy a full 20 warrior blob, 3 more crisis for a inmortal blob, for example.

One can see that Necrons have been a bit downgraded when compared with the 7th ed.
Nevertheless, I'd wait to see what the new meta is. Shooty, cc, a combination of both, or whatnot.

 Kaeldran wrote:
Not 20. necrons have L10, is good, but it isn't inmunity. 15 warriors killed in a round (probably 14 is enought) and the whole unit is destroyed before any RP. 6 crisis with triple flammer will destroy a full 20 warrior blob, 3 more crisis for a inmortal blob, for example.

So you're telling me...

That over 400 points of Tau the Shooting Kings using a Shooting weapon... one they probably don't even want to be using since it gets them too close to melee... will wreck a squad that costs half as much?

Tyel wrote:
As I see it you would need three stalkers to take out a razorback in one go on average dice.

This is 513 points - so hardly that efficient.

Go with the twin assault cannon option. For the same points as about 8 marines you get a gun with 12 shots at strength 6 and -1 AP, 10 wounds over 8 and T7 vs T4. Plus movement 12 vs movement 6 and smoke launchers. I guess the heavy effect makes it slightly weaker if you have to drive around rather than hunker down somewhere but depending on objectives that may not be necessary.

I struggle to see what Necrons have that is very efficient. RP seems to be upsetting people across the web but to my mind its only really good in hypothetical 240 points vs 240 point match ups. In a real game its going to be relatively easy to kill 20 warriors in two turns even with a round of RP.

You're right. I forgot the Heat ray.

 Kaeldran wrote:
Not 20. necrons have L10, is good, but it isn't inmunity. 15 warriors killed in a round (probably 14 is enought) and the whole unit is destroyed before any RP. 6 crisis with triple flammer will destroy a full 20 warrior blob, 3 more crisis for a inmortal blob, for example.

Someone brought this up before but, just to reiterate, this is a terrible plan. The Necron player will use 2 CP to auto-pass the morale check, then ~5 of the 15 Warriors will stand back up. With the right buffs (and if the Necron player is bringing 20-man Warrior squads to take advantage of RP this is likely) you might instead expect ~11 to stand back up, and you'll have put your much more fragile crisis suits in great danger in order to kill 4 Warriors and burn 2 CP (and if you don't wipe out the squad on your next turn, even after your Crisis team gets taken out, the ones that stayed down might still get back up).

You absolutely have to kill all 20 to deal with the unit.

It's hard to find an efficient answer to basic troops. The Dark Eldar Voidraven stands out as a unit that expects to kill just over 10 Warriors in a single turn, using its one-shot bomb. Many armies will probably prefer to just throw a trash unit into CC with the Warriors to make them lose a turn while positioning to try to deal with the squad or its supporting characters.