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 Formosa wrote:

 Lord Fishface wrote:
Speaking of rumours, don’t forget the one reported in HH Book 2 Of Terran-born Iron Hand Commander Autek Mor’s geneseed’s ‘origin not being as it should’.

Think it was path to heaven or scars but it shows there was a heavy mixing of gene seed with the Terran lengionaries, they were sent where needed regardless of gene seed.

Pretty sure what you are refering to is the Aspirants being told pre-implantation that they would be going to the Luna Wolves, only to be told after the process that. "Yeah we said that, but the Fifth Legion really needed recruits so we gave you their geneseed instead. Have fun."

Considering the sheer money that gw could make by gradually leaking fluff, then a big reveal, I'd guess it'll happen sooner or later.

I'm aware that, originally, the two legions were left blank so that others could create their own legions, but the idea has evolved since then, so that this is no longer the case.

Personally, I would like to see a reveal, but I'm worried that A; it'll be an anti climax, and B; Once revealed, the interesting / exciting mystery is no more. What's better? The mystery, or the reveal?

Could one of the Primarchs just have died on the planet it was sent to? I know they were superhuman, but I'm expecting not all of them to survive childhood on some of the planets they were sent to.

[Edit]
Hmmm having through about this, it's not possible is it, as all Primarchs were found alive... right?

What if not all of the Primarchs landed on human planets? What if one landed on a xenos world? Or an Abhuman world?

 ThunderCracker wrote:
What if not all of the Primarchs landed on human planets? What if one landed on a Zenos world? Or an Abhuman world?

That is an interesting idea! Generally speaking I don’t see too much of an issue if it’s abhuman unless it’s some particularly divergent strain since Beastmen are nominally accepted. Xenos would be very interesting, and with all the weird creepy things it’d be interesting to see such a hypothetical. For example the Rangdan Xenocides implies that somehow it corrupts people based on some of the references in the black books. so what if the Slaugth secretly corrupted a primarch as a youth or something? Could explain then the legion getting corrupted since you use the primarch’s genes to stabilize the gene seed, and them “failing” the Emperor during the crusade, with heavy implications of something going down during the Rangdan events it’s not impossible if still pure conjecture.

 Ketara wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Except, by what's in print, that list is already shown as incorrect!

Where so? Have they released a different discovery list order? What publication?

Another example is in "Fulgrim" where it comments that Fulgrim met Sanguinius around the same time as he met Ferrus yet Sanguinius was not found until much later than those two in Laurie Goulding's list.

The list may well be what BL writers currently work to but it does contradict several of the early HH novels (probably ones where they not yet nailed the order down yet).

Someone actually went through all the references that were mentioned in the books and apparently managed to prove there was no possible order of discovery that did not have at least 1 contradiction in the novels but I cannot find the post at the moment.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 Lord Fishface wrote:
Speaking of rumours, don’t forget the one reported in HH Book 2 Of Terran-born Iron Hand Commander Autek Mor’s geneseed’s ‘origin not being as it should’.

Think it was path to heaven or scars but it shows there was a heavy mixing of gene seed with the Terran lengionaries, they were sent where needed regardless of gene seed.

Pretty sure what you are refering to is the Aspirants being told pre-implantation that they would be going to the Luna Wolves, only to be told after the process that. "Yeah we said that, but the Fifth Legion really needed recruits so we gave you their geneseed instead. Have fun."

It's vague as to how many implants they've received, if any. There's other references to multi-Legion emergency reinforcement pools during the Great Crusade, and didn't the Wolves take reinforcements from the Dark Angels after fighting the Alpha Legion in the Alaxxes Nebula?

It would be nice if someone at GW "officially" declared the order of the finding of the Primarchs. Dates etc.

It's a huge part of the lore and, if it were "true life", then the finding of a Primarch would be like finding Tutankhamun, alive and well, hermetically sealed behind a wall all this time.

It would also be meticulously recorded in millions of places; official documents, in the media, online etc. Imagine how much information there would be in 41st millennium still floating around?

Now, I get that 10k years have passed in universe since then, but, when you consider that there are certain individuals (likely many thousands) who are still alive and can remember those events firsthand (Belesarius Cawl, probably a great many tech priests), inquisitors, space marines (Bjorn THF), lots of perpetuals, I find it hard to believe that events that important have been forgotten or become faint.

 ThunderCracker wrote:
It would be nice if someone at GW "officially" declared the order of the finding of the Primarchs. Dates etc.

You mean like the official finding order from Black Library that Laurie Goulding published?

https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/5g67m0/primarch_discovery_order_as_told_by_laurie/

No dates alas.

 Karhedron wrote:

 ThunderCracker wrote:
It would be nice if someone at GW "officially" declared the order of the finding of the Primarchs. Dates etc.

You mean like the official finding order from Black Library that Laurie Goulding published?

https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/5g67m0/primarch_discovery_order_as_told_by_laurie/

No dates alas.

Lol yeah, just like that. What I'm getting at, though, is something recent, and by GW themselves. The lore has changed somewhat in the years since Goulding published that list, has it not?

My understanding is that while there may be inconsistencies in earlier novels, that list is the reference that BL authors are supposed to work to going forwards. Do you know of any relatively recent books that conflict with that?

 Karhedron wrote:
My understanding is that while there may be inconsistencies in earlier novels, that list is the reference that BL authors are supposed to work to going forwards. Do you know of any relatively recent books that conflict with that?

Honestly? No. But then, I can't keep track of what's happening. There is scant canon fluff from GW officially, and they seem to rely on numerous sources for canon info, like novels, video games, supplements etc. Unless one were rich, or persistent (or both) enough to collect *all* that fluff, how would one know the story?

I guess what I'm saying is this: Why doesn't GW decide what, from among all that information, is canon, and what's not, and then publish it *in one place*

That would make not only their own lives easier, but also the various authors producing the work, as well as us humble fans.

I think everyone deserves the full lowdown on this rich and engaging universe that GW has created, and not have it limited to a few ubersages who pop up now and again and point out "er, that's not canon". For best effect, read that in a droning, nasal voice.

Of course, I've nothing against super knowledgeable fans. I applaud their tenaciousness. I just like knowing stuff, and having it easily accessible

They cop out with their "there is no canon at all" attitude. That's why not.

pm713 wrote:
They cop out with their "there is no canon at all" attitude. That's why not.

Agreed. Which is annoying, no? If there's a story, them surely there has to be agreed, established canon?

Wouldn't it be cool to get a Lost Legions codex where it was a build-your-own template that players could use to generate their own Chapters descended from the two missing Legions? And GW could just shoehorn you in, like any other lore change or update. Pffft, Warriors of Scott were totally at Istvaan! Space Gophers? Yeah, they sided with Luft Huron at Badab but were pardoned after accepting a penitent crusade when he was defeated. Unfortunately the Space Gophers were slain to a Marine when their Battle Barge was run over by a Space Hulk in warp transit...

But seriously, that would be cool. Something like you pick a few primarch traits, which leads to geneseed attributes, homeworks, armoury, that sort of thing...

 darkcloak wrote:
Wouldn't it be cool to get a Lost Legions codex where it was a build-your-own template that players could use to generate their own Chapters descended from the two missing Legions? And GW could just shoehorn you in, like any other lore change or update. Pffft, Warriors of Scott were totally at Istvaan! Space Gophers? Yeah, they sided with Luft Huron at Badab but were pardoned after accepting a penitent crusade when he was defeated. Unfortunately the Space Gophers were slain to a Marine when their Battle Barge was run over by a Space Hulk in warp transit...

But seriously, that would be cool. Something like you pick a few primarch traits, which leads to geneseed attributes, homeworks, armoury, that sort of thing...

Now, that's an interesting idea.

I'd also like to see an IG codex style "regimental doctrines" table. It'd be nice to have a random legion name and livery generator chucked in there too. I look forward to the day when my legion, "The Shrub Rocketeers" take to the field, resplendent in their burnt orange and teal, quartered livery, waving their signature "warrior weapons" and led by the dedicated pacifist Primarch, the ironically named "Gorfist the destroyer", distributing free reading material and care packages.

 ThunderCracker wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:
My understanding is that while there may be inconsistencies in earlier novels, that list is the reference that BL authors are supposed to work to going forwards. Do you know of any relatively recent books that conflict with that?

Honestly? No. But then, I can't keep track of what's happening. There is scant canon fluff from GW officially, and they seem to rely on numerous sources for canon info, like novels, video games, supplements etc. Unless one were rich, or persistent (or both) enough to collect *all* that fluff, how would one know the story?

I guess what I'm saying is this: Why doesn't GW decide what, from among all that information, is canon, and what's not, and then publish it *in one place*

That would make not only their own lives easier, but also the various authors producing the work, as well as us humble fans.

I think everyone deserves the full lowdown on this rich and engaging universe that GW has created, and not have it limited to a few ubersages who pop up now and again and point out "er, that's not canon". For best effect, read that in a droning, nasal voice.

Of course, I've nothing against super knowledgeable fans. I applaud their tenaciousness. I just like knowing stuff, and having it easily accessible

Because money that's why. there are over 100 stories written for 40k.

assuming they make a profit of a dollar on every 40k novel sold why would they sell ONE source for it all (which would have to be MASSIVE) when they could sell novels that expand the scope out and make a lot more. that said it's not some grand plan to sell novels but 40k tells us whats nesscary and the novels etc slowly expand things out as suddenly it becomes nesscary.

Haha, homeworlds not homeworks...

All Warriors of Scott must take this G.O.A.T home with them and have it turned in by Evening Skirmish Bell or suffer the consequences! We are the Emperor's Most Okay!

Maxim C. Gatling wrote:
Long, long ago, in the mists of time, I got the chance to ask Rick P. and Jervis J. (separately) why the two missing Astartes Legions? I loved their answer: They wanted players to have the freedom to make up their own. Some of us aren't into French Blueberries and Thundercats.

Flash forward to today, do you think that GW will eventually pull the forbidden Legions out of the dusty hat to introduce a new fluff/plot device? Did they already and I missed it?

Personally, I hope they get mentioned/hinted in future fluff, but remain the expunged Legions...forever a mystery as elusive as the Emperor's real name. I'd rather see a new alien race or something along those lines.

Well we can probably rule out Chaos, as the Primarchs would most likely have known about Chaos if that was the case, I think they tried to secede from the Imperium.

BrianDavion wrote:

 ThunderCracker wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:
My understanding is that while there may be inconsistencies in earlier novels, that list is the reference that BL authors are supposed to work to going forwards. Do you know of any relatively recent books that conflict with that?

Honestly? No. But then, I can't keep track of what's happening. There is scant canon fluff from GW officially, and they seem to rely on numerous sources for canon info, like novels, video games, supplements etc. Unless one were rich, or persistent (or both) enough to collect *all* that fluff, how would one know the story?

I guess what I'm saying is this: Why doesn't GW decide what, from among all that information, is canon, and what's not, and then publish it *in one place*

That would make not only their own lives easier, but also the various authors producing the work, as well as us humble fans.

I think everyone deserves the full lowdown on this rich and engaging universe that GW has created, and not have it limited to a few ubersages who pop up now and again and point out "er, that's not canon". For best effect, read that in a droning, nasal voice.

Of course, I've nothing against super knowledgeable fans. I applaud their tenaciousness. I just like knowing stuff, and having it easily accessible

Because money that's why. there are over 100 stories written for 40k.

assuming they make a profit of a dollar on every 40k novel sold why would they sell ONE source for it all (which would have to be MASSIVE) when they could sell novels that expand the scope out and make a lot more. that said it's not some grand plan to sell novels but 40k tells us whats nesscary and the novels etc slowly expand things out as suddenly it becomes nesscary.

(sigh) I guess, deep down, I knew that. Ah well, back to being mystified....

 ThunderCracker wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 ThunderCracker wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:
My understanding is that while there may be inconsistencies in earlier novels, that list is the reference that BL authors are supposed to work to going forwards. Do you know of any relatively recent books that conflict with that?

Honestly? No. But then, I can't keep track of what's happening. There is scant canon fluff from GW officially, and they seem to rely on numerous sources for canon info, like novels, video games, supplements etc. Unless one were rich, or persistent (or both) enough to collect *all* that fluff, how would one know the story?

I guess what I'm saying is this: Why doesn't GW decide what, from among all that information, is canon, and what's not, and then publish it *in one place*

That would make not only their own lives easier, but also the various authors producing the work, as well as us humble fans.

I think everyone deserves the full lowdown on this rich and engaging universe that GW has created, and not have it limited to a few ubersages who pop up now and again and point out "er, that's not canon". For best effect, read that in a droning, nasal voice.

Of course, I've nothing against super knowledgeable fans. I applaud their tenaciousness. I just like knowing stuff, and having it easily accessible

Because money that's why. there are over 100 stories written for 40k.

assuming they make a profit of a dollar on every 40k novel sold why would they sell ONE source for it all (which would have to be MASSIVE) when they could sell novels that expand the scope out and make a lot more. that said it's not some grand plan to sell novels but 40k tells us whats nesscary and the novels etc slowly expand things out as suddenly it becomes nesscary.

(sigh) I guess, deep down, I knew that. Ah well, back to being mystified....

thing is, the lore isn't all written down in some grand bible they're holding onto and doling out in small chunks to us. that's not how world building works. the writers did put out most if not all the info they did out at once, and then slowly built on that with new novels etc as new products and demand came out. GW decides to do a giant robot fighting game (the original adeptus titanicus) but can only put out one line of giant fioghty robots.. so the Horus Heresy becomes a thing. GW decides to do a 28mm game called Inqusitor, Dan Abnett gets ahold of the early material and runs out and writes Eisenhorn, etc.

TDLR Lore isn't a once and done thing, it's something that is CONSTANTLY being invented, reinvented etc.

The lore is constantly evolving too. What may once have been true isn't guaranteed to be set in stone for ever. The original version of the Emperor's battle against Horus took place in a bunk on Terra IIRC. The next version took place aboard Horus' battle barge which has been the established version for the last ~25 years. When the Horus Heresy novels finally get around to the Siege of Terra, they have already said that they do not consider themselves bound by the fluff that has come before.

 Karhedron wrote:
The lore is constantly evolving too. What may once have been true isn't guaranteed to be set in stone for ever. The original version of the Emperor's battle against Horus took place in a bunk on Terra IIRC. The next version took place aboard Horus' battle barge which has been the established version for the last ~25 years. When the Horus Heresy novels finally get around to the Siege of Terra, they have already said that they do not consider themselves bound by the fluff that has come before.

Lol yes I remember the bunker fight. I dropped in to 40k when Ptera Squirrels were a thing

As someone who grew up on scifi / fantasy / fiction / historical literature, I have a passion for established "facts" and "history" and "lore" within the setting. Things which happened which are immutable and unchangeable.

For example, LOTR lore. That's fact. It has a well established timeline. It isn't restrictive, since anyone wishing to produce stories, movies etc from that lore can easily slip it in between segments of canon.

Not so for 40k lore, which I what I find a little irksome.

 ThunderCracker wrote:


As someone who grew up on scifi / fantasy / fiction / historical literature, I have a passion for established "facts" and "history" and "lore" within the setting. Things which happened which are immutable and unchangeable.

For example, LOTR lore. That's fact. It has a well established timeline. It isn't restrictive, since anyone wishing to produce stories, movies etc from that lore can easily slip it in between segments of canon.

Not so for 40k lore, which I what I find a little irksome.

LOTR has two major differences - out-world it was created by single person with love for fitting things neatly (but afaik it had number of timeline drafts and corrections that fully stopped only with death of Creator). In-world it's basically Elven/Mayar narrative that is The History of one continuity, with lot of personnaes from previous age (and some from FIRST Age) available for questioning. It was written as some country's school textbook - and textbooks are oversimplification and compromise to make people remember something 'properly'.

PS My major grudge against GW/BL is retcons within and rewriting of already covered periods - while changes to _40M version_ of HH is something of no consequence to my reception of lore. Even 'it is really Horus that killed and absorbed Emperor now sits on Golden Throne' will still fit 40M lore until 'and every Lord of Terra and many lesser men know that from day one' retcon arrives.

 ThunderCracker wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:
The lore is constantly evolving too. What may once have been true isn't guaranteed to be set in stone for ever. The original version of the Emperor's battle against Horus took place in a bunk on Terra IIRC. The next version took place aboard Horus' battle barge which has been the established version for the last ~25 years. When the Horus Heresy novels finally get around to the Siege of Terra, they have already said that they do not consider themselves bound by the fluff that has come before.

Lol yes I remember the bunker fight. I dropped in to 40k when Ptera Squirrels were a thing

As someone who grew up on scifi / fantasy / fiction / historical literature, I have a passion for established "facts" and "history" and "lore" within the setting. Things which happened which are immutable and unchangeable.

For example, LOTR lore. That's fact. It has a well established timeline. It isn't restrictive, since anyone wishing to produce stories, movies etc from that lore can easily slip it in between segments of canon.

Not so for 40k lore, which I what I find a little irksome.

How many balrogs are there, and do they have wings?

 ThunderCracker wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:
My understanding is that while there may be inconsistencies in earlier novels, that list is the reference that BL authors are supposed to work to going forwards. Do you know of any relatively recent books that conflict with that?

Honestly? No. But then, I can't keep track of what's happening. There is scant canon fluff from GW officially, and they seem to rely on numerous sources for canon info, like novels, video games, supplements etc. Unless one were rich, or persistent (or both) enough to collect *all* that fluff, how would one know the story?

I guess what I'm saying is this: Why doesn't GW decide what, from among all that information, is canon, and what's not, and then publish it *in one place*

That would make not only their own lives easier, but also the various authors producing the work, as well as us humble fans.

I think everyone deserves the full lowdown on this rich and engaging universe that GW has created, and not have it limited to a few ubersages who pop up now and again and point out "er, that's not canon". For best effect, read that in a droning, nasal voice.

Of course, I've nothing against super knowledgeable fans. I applaud their tenaciousness. I just like knowing stuff, and having it easily accessible

They actually do know what's canon and what's not. They just won't tell us.

ADB commonly explains this idea using the following dialogue, which was based on his actual conversation with IP management. Copied from his reddit AMA:

ADB: "I want to do X."

IP: "You can't, that's wrong, the lore doesn't go like that."

ADB: "But it says in these published sources that I'm right. I just want to carry on X and Y and Z."

IP: "Yeah, but they were wrong. They were wrong at the time, too. We never directly say they were wrong, we just never mention them again, and eventually counter them in later publications."

ADB: "But the readers think these things are true."

IP: "Sure. But eventually, they won't."

Essentially what GW bank on is that new players won't read old lore. They'll read whatever's newest and build their view of the setting around that. Old lore might never be directly ret-conned (or if it is it's by accident) but that doesn't mean it's still canon or that it will ever be printed again.

I find 40ks approach to be better, since I like to regard the fluff as history and history always comes from someones point of view, limited and biased.

jareddm wrote:

 ThunderCracker wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:
My understanding is that while there may be inconsistencies in earlier novels, that list is the reference that BL authors are supposed to work to going forwards. Do you know of any relatively recent books that conflict with that?

Honestly? No. But then, I can't keep track of what's happening. There is scant canon fluff from GW officially, and they seem to rely on numerous sources for canon info, like novels, video games, supplements etc. Unless one were rich, or persistent (or both) enough to collect *all* that fluff, how would one know the story?

I guess what I'm saying is this: Why doesn't GW decide what, from among all that information, is canon, and what's not, and then publish it *in one place*

That would make not only their own lives easier, but also the various authors producing the work, as well as us humble fans.

I think everyone deserves the full lowdown on this rich and engaging universe that GW has created, and not have it limited to a few ubersages who pop up now and again and point out "er, that's not canon". For best effect, read that in a droning, nasal voice.

Of course, I've nothing against super knowledgeable fans. I applaud their tenaciousness. I just like knowing stuff, and having it easily accessible

They actually do know what's canon and what's not. They just won't tell us.

ADB commonly explains this idea using the following dialogue, which was based on his actual conversation with IP management. Copied from his reddit AMA:

ADB: "I want to do X."

IP: "You can't, that's wrong, the lore doesn't go like that."

ADB: "But it says in these published sources that I'm right. I just want to carry on X and Y and Z."

IP: "Yeah, but they were wrong. They were wrong at the time, too. We never directly say they were wrong, we just never mention them again, and eventually counter them in later publications."

ADB: "But the readers think these things are true."

IP: "Sure. But eventually, they won't."

Essentially what GW bank on is that new players won't read old lore. They'll read whatever's newest and build their view of the setting around that. Old lore might never be directly ret-conned (or if it is it's by accident) but that doesn't mean it's still canon or that it will ever be printed again.

so rather then go out and declare X uncommon, they prefer X to just be slowly forgotten about, makes sense, less contriversial.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
I was re-reading some of the Forge World books at the weekend (looking for background on the Death's Heads legion), and the clearest description of the fate of the two lost legions is in there, although right now, I can't remember exactly which book it was. IIRC, it was the Rangdan Xenocide, according to Lexicanum*, which appears to have wiped out entire Expeditionary fleets, titan legions and two entire Legions of Space Marines.

It still doesn't explain why those Legions are utterly proscribed, though. Was it because of their actions during this campaign, or were the remnants of the two Legions sent to their doom against the Rangdan to silence them?

1: The Horus Heresy Book Seven pg.81-82
2: The Horus Heresy Book Five pg.96
3: The Horus Heresy Book Three pg.82

The two legions were erased becaused they failed. Nothing is worse than utter failure in the eyes of the Emperor. (Emperor of Mankind)

 SickSix wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
I was re-reading some of the Forge World books at the weekend (looking for background on the Death's Heads legion), and the clearest description of the fate of the two lost legions is in there, although right now, I can't remember exactly which book it was. IIRC, it was the Rangdan Xenocide, according to Lexicanum*, which appears to have wiped out entire Expeditionary fleets, titan legions and two entire Legions of Space Marines.

It still doesn't explain why those Legions are utterly proscribed, though. Was it because of their actions during this campaign, or were the remnants of the two Legions sent to their doom against the Rangdan to silence them?

1: The Horus Heresy Book Seven pg.81-82
2: The Horus Heresy Book Five pg.96
3: The Horus Heresy Book Three pg.82

The two legions were erased becaused they failed. Nothing is worse than utter failure in the eyes of the Emperor. (Emperor of Mankind)

Does he see the irony there I wonder?