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 Insectum7 wrote:
^Irrelevant. You're paying CP to fire twice, the cost of the unit doesn't matter, it's the potential effectiveness of the Strat that counts.

Those other strategems are MUCH more generic in use and you darn well know it. THAT is why those Strategems are 2CP. You can only use your proposed one on Land Raiders, an already super expensive unit, for lower damage for the points.

Points dont matter. You could use the Chaos Fire Twice on a 90 point unit or a 500 point unit of Terminators with combo-plasma. The fact that it's more generic doesnt matter, it's the potential output that counts. There are 3CP Stratagems that require specific units, and those aren't discounted for specificity either.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Points dont matter. You could use the Chaos Fire Twice on a 90 point unit or a 500 point unit of Terminators with combo-plasma. The fact that it's more generic doesnt matter, it's the potential output that counts. There are 3CP Stratagems that require specific units, and those aren't discounted for specificity either.

And those more generic ones are priced like you can use it on either a minimum squad of Noise Marines OR those Obliterators. That makes 2CP more fair.

You only get the Land Raider in your case. Why price it like a generic Strategem?

Also don't get me started on those overcosted Strategems. Any of the fight twice strategems need to be just 2CP if they're generic.

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Irrelevant. You're paying CP to fire twice, the cost of the unit doesn't matter, it's the potential effectiveness of the Strat that counts.

The cost of the unit matters because it's how much you're paying to make the stratagem useful.

 IronBrand wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Irrelevant. You're paying CP to fire twice, the cost of the unit doesn't matter, it's the potential effectiveness of the Strat that counts.

The cost of the unit matters because it's how much you're paying to make the stratagem useful.

1CP is too cheap for a Land Raider to fire twice. They can bring more firepower than people tend to credit them for.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 IronBrand wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Irrelevant. You're paying CP to fire twice, the cost of the unit doesn't matter, it's the potential effectiveness of the Strat that counts.

The cost of the unit matters because it's how much you're paying to make the stratagem useful.

1CP is too cheap for a Land Raider to fire twice. They can bring more firepower than people tend to credit them for.

I'm not talking about the CP. I'm saying you can't really say two units with the same benefit from a stratagem are just as effective when one of them costs almost half as much as the other.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 IronBrand wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Irrelevant. You're paying CP to fire twice, the cost of the unit doesn't matter, it's the potential effectiveness of the Strat that counts.

The cost of the unit matters because it's how much you're paying to make the stratagem useful.

1CP is too cheap for a Land Raider to fire twice. They can bring more firepower than people tend to credit them for.

If your just trying to give it a Bandaid fix in giving a stragime it kinda needs to be to good other wise your just buffing a bad unit with an decent buff.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 IronBrand wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Irrelevant. You're paying CP to fire twice, the cost of the unit doesn't matter, it's the potential effectiveness of the Strat that counts.

The cost of the unit matters because it's how much you're paying to make the stratagem useful.

1CP is too cheap for a Land Raider to fire twice. They can bring more firepower than people tend to credit them for.

Um no they don't. For 350+ points you get:
1. 4 Lascannon shots and 6 Heavy Bolter shots
2. 12 Assault Cannon shots and 12-24 Bolter shots
3. 12 Assault Cannon shots and 7 slightly better Heavy Flamer shots
4. 4 Lascannon shots and 7 S7 shots
5. 4 Multi-Melta shots and 1 Quad Launcher
6. 24 Heavy Bolter shots

Now the question is, for the points, this any good?

The suckiness of the Land Raider goes hand in hand with Terminators. These iconic units need fixes but GW will not bother.

Landraider needs Steel Behemoth, 5++, and a points adjustment of some sort to see it become useful.

I haven’t run a land raider since 3rd or when ever it came out as a new kit,

Currently building a terminus ultra as a centrepiece, that’s about it

I have the one with the flamers (can't remember its name). The short range of the flamers makes it unusable vs a lot of charging units/models and then I'm locked in combat where I can't use them to clear off the models assaulting me. I doesn't make much sense that an anti-personnel weapon can't be used in close combat with infantry. To be fair flamers in general need a rework in 8th.
I also think that the assault ramp should mean something. I think that it should allow a unit to disembark after the LR moves but the unit itself can not move for the remainder of the turn (unless they disembark into CC).

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 IronBrand wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Irrelevant. You're paying CP to fire twice, the cost of the unit doesn't matter, it's the potential effectiveness of the Strat that counts.

The cost of the unit matters because it's how much you're paying to make the stratagem useful.

1CP is too cheap for a Land Raider to fire twice. They can bring more firepower than people tend to credit them for.

Um no they don't. For 350+ points you get:
1. 4 Lascannon shots and 6 Heavy Bolter shots
2. 12 Assault Cannon shots and 12-24 Bolter shots
3. 12 Assault Cannon shots and 7 slightly better Heavy Flamer shots
4. 4 Lascannon shots and 7 S7 shots
5. 4 Multi-Melta shots and 1 Quad Launcher
6. 24 Heavy Bolter shots

Now the question is, for the points, this any good?

"For the points" isn't the relevant question in regards to CP cost, but I'm all for a points reduction.

The question is, what units have better firepower than a Land Raider and have access to a Fire Twice Stratagem. By my math, a fully loaded Land Raider Phobos (Lascannons), with Chapter Master and Lt. Buffs will one-shot a Leman Russ with average rolls. That firing again is worth more than 1 CP, hands down.

Well a 6 man hive gaurd unit cost much less than a land raider and can shoot twice for 2 cp with 12( str 8 ap-2 d3 damage ignore cover doesn't need LOS weapons)

Or essentially -2.5x the firepower of a landraider. 1 CP would be fine for that strat. However - I'd like the base unit to be fixed rather than giving it some nuance use due to stratagems.

A Wave Serpent isn't good "for it's points" of dakka. For the same points, you can have a lot more firepower (even Marines can).

You have to look at the entire package. The Land Raider is a brick. It's really hard to remove. It can transport super-durable stuff. It's got a large amount of firepower. You have to consider the price for the whole package.

(And the whole package isn't worth it's price.)

A straight up double dakka would be too much (it pays less than twice what a QuadLas Pred pays). So giving it that rule baseline might be a bit much.

Bharring wrote:
A Wave Serpent isn't good "for it's points" of dakka. For the same points, you can have a lot more firepower (even Marines can).

You have to look at the entire package. The Land Raider is a brick. It's really hard to remove. It can transport super-durable stuff. It's got a large amount of firepower. You have to consider the price for the whole package.

(And the whole package isn't worth it's price.)

A straight up double dakka would be too much (it pays less than twice what a QuadLas Pred pays). So giving it that rule baseline might be a bit much.

Why does it matter that it can transport super durable stuff? Transporting units has very little value in this game. Deep-strike exists and works better.
Wave serpents are valuable because they are more durable the land-raiders for 1/3 their cost and during mop up time they can do d3 mortal wounds and tie up units that can't really hurt them. Fast/fly key word/ and decent fire on the move. The fact that they are transports is just a bonus.

They're more durable for their cost, but aren't more durable overall. It takes contrived examples to make it look that way. The Serpent *is* a lot more versatile, though.

Deepstrike does work better, in almost all cases. And the stuff that wants a ride in it tend to also be overcosted. But there are uses for it - so prices should keep that in mind.

Bharring wrote:
They're more durable for their cost, but aren't more durable overall.

Well if you won't use points for that metric what else are you gonna use?

With that mindset it would not matter if the Land Raider had 50 points added to it!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 IronBrand wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Irrelevant. You're paying CP to fire twice, the cost of the unit doesn't matter, it's the potential effectiveness of the Strat that counts.

The cost of the unit matters because it's how much you're paying to make the stratagem useful.

1CP is too cheap for a Land Raider to fire twice. They can bring more firepower than people tend to credit them for.

Um no they don't. For 350+ points you get:
1. 4 Lascannon shots and 6 Heavy Bolter shots
2. 12 Assault Cannon shots and 12-24 Bolter shots
3. 12 Assault Cannon shots and 7 slightly better Heavy Flamer shots
4. 4 Lascannon shots and 7 S7 shots
5. 4 Multi-Melta shots and 1 Quad Launcher
6. 24 Heavy Bolter shots

Now the question is, for the points, this any good?

"For the points" isn't the relevant question in regards to CP cost, but I'm all for a points reduction.

The question is, what units have better firepower than a Land Raider and have access to a Fire Twice Stratagem. By my math, a fully loaded Land Raider Phobos (Lascannons), with Chapter Master and Lt. Buffs will one-shot a Leman Russ with average rolls. That firing again is worth more than 1 CP, hands down.

Actually in your case that's 4CP since you like adding Chapter Masters that way, and that's an extra 130ish points minimum in your case.

It's MORE than reasonable at that point to kill a Leman Russ.

Bharring wrote:
They're more durable for their cost, but aren't more durable overall. It takes contrived examples to make it look that way. The Serpent *is* a lot more versatile, though.

Deepstrike does work better, in almost all cases. And the stuff that wants a ride in it tend to also be overcosted. But there are uses for it - so prices should keep that in mind.

Yeah I think earlier I suggested that the transport capacity is worth roughly 2 points per slot. So a standard LR it's worth 20 points of it's total cost. Even that is pretty generous.

Nah man a WS with spirit stones is more durable than a LR straight up vs anything that isn't str 8. However - str 8 typically comes with a d3 damage mechanic - which reducing the average damage of those weapons to 1 is a 50% buff to survival - -1 to wound represents an 18% buff. 13 wounds to 16....Come on man.

Ummwat?

16 wounds T8 2+
vs
13 wounds T7 3+ Serpent Shield

Lascannons:
(2/3)(2/3)(21/6) = 14/9 wounds/hit, or 10.3 hits to pop a LR
(2/3)(5/6)(16/6) = 160/108 wounds/hit, or 8.8 hits to pop a Serpent
LR is more durable

Boltguns:
(1/6)(1/6) = 1/36 wounds/hit = 576 hits to pop a LR
(1/3)(1/3) = 1/9 wounds/hit = 117 hits to pop a Serpent

Big or small, if it's not tailored to not hurt a Serpent, the Serpent dies faster.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For numbers on the serpent shield, it provides:
D1: 0%
D2: 50%
Dd3: 33%
D3: 33%
Dd6: 24%
D4: 25%
D5: 20%
....
In the best case, it's a 50% damage resistance buff. But only vs D2 weapons - it's much less vs anything else.

I think the Wave Serpent is far more worth its points (roughly half of a Land Raider). Faster, carries more - mostly, and can fly. Doesn't have much in the way of weaponry and is plenty tough for what it needs to be.

Point for point, I'd argue the Wave Serpent is much better. I wouldn't compare the two directly though, they're different animals.

Elbows,
I agree. Point for point, a much better option.

I just see things like "Straight up" more durable (as opposed to per-point), and feel like there's a deficiency of facts.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
They're more durable for their cost, but aren't more durable overall.

Well if you won't use points for that metric what else are you gonna use?

With that mindset it would not matter if the Land Raider had 50 points added to it!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 IronBrand wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Irrelevant. You're paying CP to fire twice, the cost of the unit doesn't matter, it's the potential effectiveness of the Strat that counts.

The cost of the unit matters because it's how much you're paying to make the stratagem useful.

1CP is too cheap for a Land Raider to fire twice. They can bring more firepower than people tend to credit them for.

Um no they don't. For 350+ points you get:
1. 4 Lascannon shots and 6 Heavy Bolter shots
2. 12 Assault Cannon shots and 12-24 Bolter shots
3. 12 Assault Cannon shots and 7 slightly better Heavy Flamer shots
4. 4 Lascannon shots and 7 S7 shots
5. 4 Multi-Melta shots and 1 Quad Launcher
6. 24 Heavy Bolter shots

Now the question is, for the points, this any good?

"For the points" isn't the relevant question in regards to CP cost, but I'm all for a points reduction.

The question is, what units have better firepower than a Land Raider and have access to a Fire Twice Stratagem. By my math, a fully loaded Land Raider Phobos (Lascannons), with Chapter Master and Lt. Buffs will one-shot a Leman Russ with average rolls. That firing again is worth more than 1 CP, hands down.

Actually in your case that's 4CP since you like adding Chapter Masters that way, and that's an extra 130ish points minimum in your case.

It's MORE than reasonable at that point to kill a Leman Russ.

It can kill 2 Leman Russes if it fires twice. Average rolls drop the second to 1 wound.

The LR was bad in previous editions too, but the AV14-all-sides schtick was impressive, compared to Russes. There were some mean things that could happen to Russes that LRs wouldn't care about. The game doesn't have those distinctions anymore, though.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Well a 6 man hive gaurd unit cost much less than a land raider and can shoot twice for 2 cp with 12( str 8 ap-2 d3 damage ignore cover doesn't need LOS weapons)

Or essentially -2.5x the firepower of a landraider.

My math scores the Hive Guard at 5.3 w on a Leman Russ, bare bones Land Raider Phobos 5.8.

Insectum do you mind explaining your maths here are you have said tow posts appart that a land raider does 5.8 wounds to a LR vrs two posts earlier saying it could kill 2 LR's if it shoots twice.
I'm confused as LR don't have 6 wounds?
My maths says 5.86 wounds fron everything on a Land raider even shooting twice it cant achive a 50% return on its points.

Ice_can wrote:
Insectum do you mind explaining your maths here are you have said tow posts appart that a land raider does 5.8 wounds to a LR vrs two posts earlier saying it could kill 2 LR's if it shoots twice.
I'm confused as LR don't have 6 wounds?
My maths says 5.86 wounds fron everything on a Land raider even shooting twice it cant achive a 50% return on its points.

Base Land Raider unbuffed gets 5.8something.

Loaded Land Raider (+Multimelta and HK missile), plus rerolls to hit and reroll 1s to wound gets 12 something. (I calculated the Multimelta being not within 12", the presumption being this is a first turn alpha type of thing. Move forward 10" and fire, or whatever)

So my "Fire Twice" scenario has the first round of shooting averaging a Leman Russ kill, and the second round slightly less because the HK missile is spent. Which, imo, is awesome firepower.

Apologies, I'd write it all up but it's a hectic day.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Well a 6 man hive gaurd unit cost much less than a land raider and can shoot twice for 2 cp with 12( str 8 ap-2 d3 damage ignore cover doesn't need LOS weapons)

Or essentially -2.5x the firepower of a landraider.

My math scores the Hive Guard at 5.3 w on a Leman Russ, bare bones Land Raider Phobos 5.8.

Yeah - killing LR with heavy weapons is tough. LC can do it well but vs custodes bikers or ravagers or even rhinos - the hive guard unit does significantly more damage.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Well a 6 man hive gaurd unit cost much less than a land raider and can shoot twice for 2 cp with 12( str 8 ap-2 d3 damage ignore cover doesn't need LOS weapons)

Or essentially -2.5x the firepower of a landraider.

My math scores the Hive Guard at 5.3 w on a Leman Russ, bare bones Land Raider Phobos 5.8.

Yeah - killing LR with heavy weapons is tough. LC can do it well but vs custodes bikers or ravagers or even rhinos - the hive guard unit does significantly more damage.

Vs. Rhino Hive guard get 7.0, a Land Raider with the additional Multimelta scores 7.3. I'm sure Hive Guard pull ahead against models with invuln saves, and that's fair. But there's a huge benefit coming from the potential buffs, as illustrated by the 12 potential wounds given in the post above. Hive Guard can't be nearly as buffed, I think it's just Kronos reroll 1s to hit? The Fire Twice Stratagem is almost a substitute for buffs. Buffed Land Raider +Fire Twice would be very valuable, and that's how it would likely be played. Stacked Buffs are the way of competetive builds, generally.

Almost every week I play my regular buddy. Many of the times I use my SM, I tell myself I'm going to bust out my Land Raider for funsies.

Even in a casual game, (we generally play at 1k points since we play late night and only have time for a 1 hour game, max, including setup and takedown) I have a very hard time ever including the Land Raider. It's just too expensive and the transport thing never plays out right. What is worth putting in a Land Raider that's not better either with Jump Packs (vanguard vets) or not using at all (Termies)? I have a Crusader for my Raven Guard which actually does see some use, and a Redeemer for my BA's which I have used, literally, twice in 3 years.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Well a 6 man hive gaurd unit cost much less than a land raider and can shoot twice for 2 cp with 12( str 8 ap-2 d3 damage ignore cover doesn't need LOS weapons)

Or essentially -2.5x the firepower of a landraider.

My math scores the Hive Guard at 5.3 w on a Leman Russ, bare bones Land Raider Phobos 5.8.

Yeah - killing LR with heavy weapons is tough. LC can do it well but vs custodes bikers or ravagers or even rhinos - the hive guard unit does significantly more damage.

Vs. Rhino Hive guard get 7.0, a Land Raider with the additional Multimelta scores 7.3. I'm sure Hive Guard pull ahead against models with invuln saves, and that's fair. But there's a huge benefit coming from the potential buffs, as illustrated by the 12 potential wounds given in the post above. Hive Guard can't be nearly as buffed, I think it's just Kronos reroll 1s to hit? The Fire Twice Stratagem is almost a substitute for buffs. Buffed Land Raider +Fire Twice would be very valuable, and that's how it would likely be played. Stacked Buffs are the way of competetive builds, generally.

The unit needs to be able to perform without buffs. I'm assuming you didn't take into account Kronos either, which would be a baked-in rule?