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2018/10/19 22:00:23
Subject: Space Marines Chapters DO NOT have 1000 Marines.
Niiai wrote: Just play some regular games of warhammer over some form of campain. By the numbers alone by the end of the campain you have effectivly wiped out the chapter. And that is only counting the games you actually play. Supposebly a lot more is happening in the backround of the campain. Scouting, smalling skirmishes, etc.
1000 SM are indeed very small. And then look to armies that do not have several companies etc. Lamenters, Space wolves. These should have been wiped out a long time ago if you follow the backround information.
Except if you were to play an accurate campaign, all Space Marines would be toughness 6 while Custodes would be toughness 7 or even 8 and a single squad of space marines with a lascannon would mop up guardsmen or orks without much trouble. The tabletop is a horrible example to use for anything given that it kneecaps numerous factions so guard, ork, and nid players don't need to buy an absolutely obscene amount of models/people buy so little eldar and space marines that GW's sales are hurt.
I'm not even sure that's true. Most of the battles I've read in Black Library have involved asymmetric fighting or situations in which tabletop statistics can bear out to some degree or another. Marines can mop up tons of Guardsmen if the Guardsmen can't bring their numbers to bear. Especially with character support (which is usually the case in BL, afaik). I haven't read that much BL though, so I'd be interested to know if others can bring up examples.
My general barometer is the Dorn quote: "Give me a hundred Space Marines. Or failing that give me a thousand other troops".
In other words, a Space Marine company is approximately equivalent to ten human companies. That isn't the same as one Space Marine being equivalent to ten humans- the equipment of the company is a huge force multiplier. Of course, once you add in fleet assets, a hundred Marines far outstrips a thousand humans in capability.
ChargerIIC wrote: If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
2018/10/20 02:18:29
Subject: Space Marines Chapters DO NOT have 1000 Marines.
Niiai wrote: Just play some regular games of warhammer over some form of campain. By the numbers alone by the end of the campain you have effectivly wiped out the chapter. And that is only counting the games you actually play. Supposebly a lot more is happening in the backround of the campain. Scouting, smalling skirmishes, etc.
1000 SM are indeed very small. And then look to armies that do not have several companies etc. Lamenters, Space wolves. These should have been wiped out a long time ago if you follow the backround information.
Except if you were to play an accurate campaign, all Space Marines would be toughness 6 while Custodes would be toughness 7 or even 8 and a single squad of space marines with a lascannon would mop up guardsmen or orks without much trouble. The tabletop is a horrible example to use for anything given that it kneecaps numerous factions so guard, ork, and nid players don't need to buy an absolutely obscene amount of models/people buy so little eldar and space marines that GW's sales are hurt.
I'm not even sure that's true. Most of the battles I've read in Black Library have involved asymmetric fighting or situations in which tabletop statistics can bear out to some degree or another. Marines can mop up tons of Guardsmen if the Guardsmen can't bring their numbers to bear. Especially with character support (which is usually the case in BL, afaik). I haven't read that much BL though, so I'd be interested to know if others can bring up examples.
I don't know what books you're reading then. Marines bulldoze through thousands to millions of enemies in the novels, with just a couple hundred being sufficient to act as the turning point in an offensive or defensive measure. Such as in Brothers of the Snake where one lone marine stuck behind in Ork territory for years kills hordes of them, or when the Chapter itself bulldozes its way through thousands of Dark Eldar, or in the latest Blood Angel book where somewheres around 20k to 10k Blood Angels hold out against the majority of the Hive Fleet Leviathan (so numerous that the ships literally blotted out the sky and pouring billions of tyrnaids on the defenses) . Just in general, Astartes, Eldar, Custodes, Daemons, and Nobz are completely and utterly superior to guard/tyranid light infantry/boyz/etc to the point that the light infantry might as well not even bother fighting unless they have overwhelming numbers or heavy armor support and catch them out in the open. Although in the case of the Custodes even that shouldn't work on them considering their Terminators can shrug off getting shot by hypersonic quake shells fired out of an aquila macrocannon.
An accurate tabletop game (with fair balance) would be pitting a demicompany of marines with vehicular support against hundreds of guardsmen, or just one or two units of custodes against the same force, give-or-take with other armies such as Eldar or elite Ork forces. Obviously that's not really functional in terms of scale, so the answer would be to drop the model count of the elite forces proportionally... but that would negatively impact sales and I can hear the GW accountants hissing at such a thought.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
2018/10/20 03:14:37
Subject: Space Marines Chapters DO NOT have 1000 Marines.
"tyranids replace any casualty on a 2+ every turn, dark eldar require you to set up facing the wrong way, and eldar allows you to play the game three times and decide which result to accept..."
One thing I do like about Battlefleet Gothic is the way Necrons work in that it is, deliberately, an 'unfair' game and yet remains balanced - 1500 points of necrons will kick the ass of 1500 points of Imperial Navy in 'ships destroyed'. However they will give a fair fight in victory points because every necron ship shot down gives 2x or even 3x its points cost in victory points.
the problem with that is it was apparently not very fun. It reminds of playing a game with an older brother as a little kid, he utterly kicks your ass, but to keep you intreasted invents a reason why "you really Won that!"
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2018/10/21 03:22:38
Subject: Space Marines Chapters DO NOT have 1000 Marines.
Niiai wrote: Just play some regular games of warhammer over some form of campain. By the numbers alone by the end of the campain you have effectivly wiped out the chapter. And that is only counting the games you actually play. Supposebly a lot more is happening in the backround of the campain. Scouting, smalling skirmishes, etc.
1000 SM are indeed very small. And then look to armies that do not have several companies etc. Lamenters, Space wolves. These should have been wiped out a long time ago if you follow the backround information.
Except if you were to play an accurate campaign, all Space Marines would be toughness 6 while Custodes would be toughness 7 or even 8 and a single squad of space marines with a lascannon would mop up guardsmen or orks without much trouble. The tabletop is a horrible example to use for anything given that it kneecaps numerous factions so guard, ork, and nid players don't need to buy an absolutely obscene amount of models/people buy so little eldar and space marines that GW's sales are hurt.
I'm not even sure that's true. Most of the battles I've read in Black Library have involved asymmetric fighting or situations in which tabletop statistics can bear out to some degree or another. Marines can mop up tons of Guardsmen if the Guardsmen can't bring their numbers to bear. Especially with character support (which is usually the case in BL, afaik). I haven't read that much BL though, so I'd be interested to know if others can bring up examples.
My general barometer is the Dorn quote: "Give me a hundred Space Marines. Or failing that give me a thousand other troops".
In other words, a Space Marine company is approximately equivalent to ten human companies. That isn't the same as one Space Marine being equivalent to ten humans- the equipment of the company is a huge force multiplier. Of course, once you add in fleet assets, a hundred Marines far outstrips a thousand humans in capability.
Well said, yes I tend to agree with that. It's not about a 10 v 1 shootout, it's about what they can bring to the strategic sphere.
Niiai wrote: Just play some regular games of warhammer over some form of campain. By the numbers alone by the end of the campain you have effectivly wiped out the chapter. And that is only counting the games you actually play. Supposebly a lot more is happening in the backround of the campain. Scouting, smalling skirmishes, etc.
1000 SM are indeed very small. And then look to armies that do not have several companies etc. Lamenters, Space wolves. These should have been wiped out a long time ago if you follow the backround information.
Except if you were to play an accurate campaign, all Space Marines would be toughness 6 while Custodes would be toughness 7 or even 8 and a single squad of space marines with a lascannon would mop up guardsmen or orks without much trouble. The tabletop is a horrible example to use for anything given that it kneecaps numerous factions so guard, ork, and nid players don't need to buy an absolutely obscene amount of models/people buy so little eldar and space marines that GW's sales are hurt.
I'm not even sure that's true. Most of the battles I've read in Black Library have involved asymmetric fighting or situations in which tabletop statistics can bear out to some degree or another. Marines can mop up tons of Guardsmen if the Guardsmen can't bring their numbers to bear. Especially with character support (which is usually the case in BL, afaik). I haven't read that much BL though, so I'd be interested to know if others can bring up examples.
I don't know what books you're reading then. Marines bulldoze through thousands to millions of enemies in the novels, with just a couple hundred being sufficient to act as the turning point in an offensive or defensive measure. Such as in Brothers of the Snake where one lone marine stuck behind in Ork territory for years kills hordes of them, or when the Chapter itself bulldozes its way through thousands of Dark Eldar, or in the latest Blood Angel book where somewheres around 20k to 10k Blood Angels hold out against the majority of the Hive Fleet Leviathan (so numerous that the ships literally blotted out the sky and pouring billions of tyrnaids on the defenses) . Just in general, Astartes, Eldar, Custodes, Daemons, and Nobz are completely and utterly superior to guard/tyranid light infantry/boyz/etc to the point that the light infantry might as well not even bother fighting unless they have overwhelming numbers or heavy armor support and catch them out in the open. Although in the case of the Custodes even that shouldn't work on them considering their Terminators can shrug off getting shot by hypersonic quake shells fired out of an aquila macrocannon.
An accurate tabletop game (with fair balance) would be pitting a demicompany of marines with vehicular support against hundreds of guardsmen, or just one or two units of custodes against the same force, give-or-take with other armies such as Eldar or elite Ork forces. Obviously that's not really functional in terms of scale, so the answer would be to drop the model count of the elite forces proportionally... but that would negatively impact sales and I can hear the GW accountants hissing at such a thought.
Right, well... the devils in the details. And you could actually play a demi company with vehicle support vs. Hundreds of guardsmen, and the Space Marines could come out of that reasonably well. A lot is going to depend on distribution of force over terrain and yada yada yada. I mean, I know the novels gloss over a lot of it, and a lot of it is for dramatic effect. But on the other hand, a single boarding squad of veterans really could clear room after room of mooks without any serious casualties. Plus things like a little fire support will go a long way towards influencing outcomes. If the idea is that the marines are well coordinated and the enemy is not, and there's room to maneuver and materiel assets backing them up, then their game stats which seem pretty meagre in a pitched battle on the tabletop can still get at least some of the outcomes you're talking about.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/10/21 03:34:10
"tyranids replace any casualty on a 2+ every turn, dark eldar require you to set up facing the wrong way, and eldar allows you to play the game three times and decide which result to accept..."
One thing I do like about Battlefleet Gothic is the way Necrons work in that it is, deliberately, an 'unfair' game and yet remains balanced - 1500 points of necrons will kick the ass of 1500 points of Imperial Navy in 'ships destroyed'. However they will give a fair fight in victory points because every necron ship shot down gives 2x or even 3x its points cost in victory points.
the problem with that is it was apparently not very fun. It reminds of playing a game with an older brother as a little kid, he utterly kicks your ass, but to keep you intreasted invents a reason why "you really Won that!"
I've played BFG with and against necrons a lot and I can assure you it is good fun.
It's no different to any mission objective - you know what you need to do to win going in and can realistically achieve it (Imperial navy can 'win' in a straight damage race but it's hard to do but in victory points for victory points it's a fair fight and gives a very "charge of the light brigade" feel). The problem with battlefleet gothic is that people always wanted to set up 1500 points of stuff on opposite sides of the board and play "first one to die loses" (aka 'settling it the old navy way'), and some races' fleets ability to dictate the scenario (orks) or the way victory points work (necrons) was 'baked in' to their points costs.
People often played it once or twice without a scenario - but also without using the Chaos and Imperial Navy fleets (which were balanced against one another in a vacuum) - and announced "orks suck" or "necrons are broken" without caring they were playing without a quarter of the fleet's rules...
Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2835
2018/10/21 15:22:30
Subject: Space Marines Chapters DO NOT have 1000 Marines.
Niiai wrote: Just play some regular games of warhammer over some form of campain. By the numbers alone by the end of the campain you have effectivly wiped out the chapter. And that is only counting the games you actually play. Supposebly a lot more is happening in the backround of the campain. Scouting, smalling skirmishes, etc.
1000 SM are indeed very small. And then look to armies that do not have several companies etc. Lamenters, Space wolves. These should have been wiped out a long time ago if you follow the backround information.
You're assuming that every casualty is a death (many will not be, especially for marines), that everyone will fight on largely regardless of casualties (the 40K morale system really doesn't work) and you're always fighting equal forces against each other which is something they would actually be avoiding doing as much as possible - the general rule is that you need a 3:1 advantage in order to minimise casualties and marines have the mobility to be concentrating their forces on fights they can win.
