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Onething123456 wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:


The Imperium and Eldar can destroy each other.

You asked:

Onething123456 wrote:

When did xenos intervene?

I answered. The hostility between the two factions is irrelevant to that fact.

Onething123456 wrote:
And I don't see how that is proof I am wrong about the Imperium being the only human faction that can handle it.

You don't see how the Imperium not being able to handle Chaos is proof of how you're wrong about the Imperium being able to handle Chaos?

Alrighty then.

I said other factions cannot handle Chaos since they cannot handle the Imperium

Well that's because the Imperium is the main character and are plot armoured. Eldar can conceivably kill them off as can Dark Eldar. Tyranids and Orks are outright stated to be strong enough apart from their 'buts'. The Necrons can do it too.

The Imperium can't handle Chaos itself either hence why they need other races to keep existing.

pm713 wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:


The Imperium and Eldar can destroy each other.

You asked:

Onething123456 wrote:

When did xenos intervene?

I answered. The hostility between the two factions is irrelevant to that fact.

Onething123456 wrote:
And I don't see how that is proof I am wrong about the Imperium being the only human faction that can handle it.

You don't see how the Imperium not being able to handle Chaos is proof of how you're wrong about the Imperium being able to handle Chaos?

Alrighty then.

I said other factions cannot handle Chaos since they cannot handle the Imperium

Well that's because the Imperium is the main character and are plot armoured. Eldar can conceivably kill them off as can Dark Eldar. Tyranids and Orks are outright stated to be strong enough apart from their 'buts'. The Necrons can do it too.

The Imperium can't handle Chaos itself either hence why they need other races to keep existing.

No one can. Chaos is almost Lovecraftian. Chaos is nigh-omnipotent within the warp.

Slipspace wrote:
There's a scene in Master of Mankind where the Emperor admits he can't fix what the Nails have done to Angron. That seems odd, given that this is the guy who created them in the first place and he obviously has considerable knowledge and skill when it comes to bio-engineering and medicine. So was he lying because it suited his purposes to have a whole Legion moulded in Angron's damaged imaged?

The ability to create something is not the same as the ability to repair it. A glass blower can make a beautiful vase but if you drop it and smash it, they can't put it back together the way it was. At best they might re-use the raw material but it is hinted that the creation of the Primarchs was a one-off endevour based on the Emperor stealing a portion of the Chaos Gods' power (although this claim is made by a daemon so is rather suspect).

We also know that Angron was dying. It was only a matter of time before the Nails killed him. This is another reason for not bothering to sanction him harder. He was a dead man walking, even if he didn't know it yet. There was no point into trying to redeem or reform Angron if he was just going to die anyway. Best to get the mileage out of him while he was still alive and kicking. As others have said, while not ideal, he did get the job done (provided you didn't care too much about the collateral damage).

Whilst the World Eaters indulged their massacre habit more than most, it's implied the Wolves were more prevalant in their use of planet-wide genocide - ref Gulliman's commentary on the terms 'Totality' and 'Skira Vordrotta' (System Kill) in Betrayer

Ultimately the Emperor is an absolute pragmatist. He has/had a vision of the future he was trying to achieve. As far as he was concerned:

1 - It was the only way Humanity as a species could survive long term. (I'm not arguing whether this is true or not; simply that the Emperor believed it was true and that's basically all that matters)
2 - Therefore (to him) any act was pre-justified in pursuing it up to an including creating religions, chaos sorcery, use of xenos technology and exterminating a non-trivial proportion of the emergent psyker gene population as a disposable asset
3 - Therefore (to him) anything which was useful was tolerated and anything which moved from not actively useful to actively inconvenient was pretty quickly destroyed

I'm not saying he didn't feel empathy or didn't care that Angron's astartes massacred the population of hive so-and-so. I'm saying he didn't care enough because as long as the XII were still a directable weapon results mattered more than ethics.

Note that Russ' intervention against the World Eaters was 'self-authorised', not with Imperial Authority - a bluff which Angron calls him on shortly before it all goes to hell.

locarno24 wrote:
Whilst the World Eaters indulged their massacre habit more than most, it's implied the Wolves were more prevalant in their use of planet-wide genocide - ref Gulliman's commentary on the terms 'Totality' and 'Skira Vordrotta' (System Kill) in Betrayer

Ultimately the Emperor is an absolute pragmatist. He has/had a vision of the future he was trying to achieve. As far as he was concerned:

1 - It was the only way Humanity as a species could survive long term. (I'm not arguing whether this is true or not; simply that the Emperor believed it was true and that's basically all that matters)
2 - Therefore (to him) any act was pre-justified in pursuing it up to an including creating religions, chaos sorcery, use of xenos technology and exterminating a non-trivial proportion of the emergent psyker gene population as a disposable asset
3 - Therefore (to him) anything which was useful was tolerated and anything which moved from not actively useful to actively inconvenient was pretty quickly destroyed

I'm not saying he didn't feel empathy or didn't care that Angron's astartes massacred the population of hive so-and-so. I'm saying he didn't care enough because as long as the XII were still a directable weapon results mattered more than ethics.

Note that Russ' intervention against the World Eaters was 'self-authorised', not with Imperial Authority - a bluff which Angron calls him on shortly before it all goes to hell.

The Emperor basically only gave Angron a slap on the wrist for an atrocity. He did send Russ after him to make him face justice, but that was near the end of the Crusade during the Horus Heresy.

The Emperor created a legion like the Space Wolves as a Terror Force.

Hairy, fanged, animal eyed and completely ruthless. Russ actually reigned in some of these features, in particular the complete ruthlessness.

So Angron comes along and the World Eaters with the Butcher’s Nails take the Space Wolves original role, what does the Emperor care? He made a Legion for that role, they went in a different path but kept conquering worlds at a great rate. The World Eaters are now the terror force spreading fear of the consequences of refusing to bend the knee to the Emperor.

Russ goes to confront Angron but as Angron questions we the audience never actually see/hear/read any part where the Emperor actually sends Russ, we just get Russ saying it’s his job.

There is a video on YouTube claiming that the Rebels are actually the bad guys in Star Wars, they do a really bang up job of pointing out how the Rebels are little more than terrorists attacking a stable leadership.
There are two names that blow this story out of the water and the video quite happily points them out at the end - Death Star and Alderaan.
This is the only example in IV, V and VI of the Empire’s evil but it is the only one needed, blowing apart a peaceful planet to show they’re not to be screwed with.
The Space Wolves are the Death Star, the World Eaters are the Death Star mkii and there are enough Alderaans that the authors don’t even bother naming them.

See Master of Mankind:

The emperor knew what he was buying with his modified primarch. He told Land as much.
Seriously the emperor is a villain in HH/40K.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
The Emperor created a legion like the Space Wolves as a Terror Force.

Hairy, fanged, animal eyed and completely ruthless. Russ actually reigned in some of these features, in particular the complete ruthlessness.

So Angron comes along and the World Eaters with the Butcher’s Nails take the Space Wolves original role, what does the Emperor care? He made a Legion for that role, they went in a different path but kept conquering worlds at a great rate. The World Eaters are now the terror force spreading fear of the consequences of refusing to bend the knee to the Emperor.

Russ goes to confront Angron but as Angron questions we the audience never actually see/hear/read any part where the Emperor actually sends Russ, we just get Russ saying it’s his job.

There is a video on YouTube claiming that the Rebels are actually the bad guys in Star Wars, they do a really bang up job of pointing out how the Rebels are little more than terrorists attacking a stable leadership.
There are two names that blow this story out of the water and the video quite happily points them out at the end - Death Star and Alderaan.
This is the only example in IV, V and VI of the Empire’s evil but it is the only one needed, blowing apart a peaceful planet to show they’re not to be screwed with.
The Space Wolves are the Death Star, the World Eaters are the Death Star mkii and there are enough Alderaans that the authors don’t even bother naming them.

And YouTube videos aren't always accurate/


Many of the EU books show how brutal and evil the empire was. The empire oppressed the galaxy as it shows in the EU books.

And the fact it blew up a planet just for testing with billions of people proves the empire was the bad guys.

And the empire murdered Jedi children.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Earth127 wrote:
See Master of Mankind:

The emperor knew what he was buying with his modified primarch. He told Land as much.
Seriously the emperor is a villain in HH/40K.

He tolerated Angron because he needed him to finish the Crusade.

How was Angron of all people NEEDED...

pm713 wrote:
How was Angron of all people NEEDED...

Interstellar tyrants need their tools of mass murder.

Sterling191 wrote:

pm713 wrote:
How was Angron of all people NEEDED...

Interstellar tyrants need their tools of mass murder.

Yeah with off buttons. Russ, Horus, Lion, Corax and basically most Primarchs were good at mass murder but they also didn't have everyone they cared about killed by the Emperor and have torture devices in their brains. Angron is not a good tool, he is not a good soldier, he isn't a good anything unless you count liabilities as good. He should have been left on his planet.

pm713 wrote:
How was Angron of all people NEEDED...

Because he needed all the Primarchs he could get to conquer the galaxy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

pm713 wrote:
How was Angron of all people NEEDED...

Interstellar tyrants need their tools of mass murder.

Yeah with off buttons. Russ, Horus, Lion, Corax and basically most Primarchs were good at mass murder but they also didn't have everyone they cared about killed by the Emperor and have torture devices in their brains. Angron is not a good tool, he is not a good soldier, he isn't a good anything unless you count liabilities as good. He should have been left on his planet.

Not really. The way Angron's and Kurze's brothers are horrified at their actions suggests that their behavior is exclusive mostly to them.

He really didn't. A Primarch is ultimately one person and Legions functioned well before them. World Eaters went from an actual army to a wasteful horde.

That's just wrong. If you don't think all the Primarchs count as mass murderers at times then you need a better dictionary.

pm713 wrote:
He really didn't. A Primarch is ultimately one person and Legions functioned well before them. World Eaters went from an actual army to a wasteful horde.

That's just wrong. If you don't think all the Primarchs count as mass murderers at times then you need a better dictionary.

If that's the case, how do you explain the quote below?

"Never afraid of extreme measures, Angron had let slip his World Eaters in the most vicious way imaginable. Remus had once heard his primarch say that Angron’s Legion could succeed where all others would fail because the Red Angel was willing to go further than any other Legion, to countenance behaviour that any civilised code of war would deem abhorrent. Seeing what had been done to Prandium, Remus understood completely. This was no honourable war, this was butchery and destruction embodied. The primarch’s great work could surely never have contemplated war with so terrible a face." Pg.32 Age of Darkness


This would imply what Angron and Kurze did was mostly exclusive to themselves. But I have been wrong before.

It doesn't look like there's anything new being added at this point, so I think we're done here.