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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Pedro has actually been improved a lot, now that I've had a squint at the GMG video. Reviewers have missed how much he's changed, probably because the changes are quite subtle.

The most important change is to his aura. Previously it added 1 to attacks of Crimson Fist models within 6" of him. Now it adds 1 to attacks of models in Crimson Fist units that are within 6" of him. This is a huge change as it massively spreads out the radius of this buff.

He's also got the proper chapter master rerolls now, plus he gained an attack and D2 on his gun. The five attacks on his profile, his aura and the Angels of Death rule mean that he gets seven attacks on the charge, at least six of which should hit.

So overall Pedro is really cool now. In the past I've preferred my Primaris captain with the Fist of Vengeance but Pedro is now a really serious buffing character who can do work in melee too. His 6 wounds and 5 attacks are the profile of a Primaris captain, even if technically he isn't Primaris. I'm going to finish my Marneus Calgar-based conversion and get this guy onto a table. He rocks.

Better show that off when you're done.

Pedro is really the only thing pulling Crimson Fists together though. Otherwise they're just worse Imperial Fists.

I don't agree with that at all. +1 to hit is often a better buff than ignoring cover. Hordes are a thing. Plaguebearers come in large numbers, with penalties to be hit, and are not in cover. I find the Crimson Fist buff at least as good as the Imperial Fist one.

And for what it's worth, the relics are also pretty great. I've had a lot of fun with the Fist of Vengeance on a Primaris Captain - though he might see a bit less action now Pedro's so good. The relic rifle is great too - albeit something of a duplcation of the Bellicos Bolt Rifle in the main book. It can replace a Stalker rifle though, so you can take a Lieutenant to an event and go with either Duty's Burden or Lament, depending on your opponent. Or neither, to save CPs.

To be honest there isn't a lot to choose between Crimson and Imperial Fists. If Crimson Fists can't have a siegebreaker cohort then that would be a pain. As far as I can tell they should be able to, as any other Imperial Fist successor can... though I guess it would be a little odd if Black Templars could. In fact the whole thing could really do with some clarification.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Pedro has actually been improved a lot, now that I've had a squint at the GMG video. Reviewers have missed how much he's changed, probably because the changes are quite subtle.

The most important change is to his aura. Previously it added 1 to attacks of Crimson Fist models within 6" of him. Now it adds 1 to attacks of models in Crimson Fist units that are within 6" of him. This is a huge change as it massively spreads out the radius of this buff.

He's also got the proper chapter master rerolls now, plus he gained an attack and D2 on his gun. The five attacks on his profile, his aura and the Angels of Death rule mean that he gets seven attacks on the charge, at least six of which should hit.

So overall Pedro is really cool now. In the past I've preferred my Primaris captain with the Fist of Vengeance but Pedro is now a really serious buffing character who can do work in melee too. His 6 wounds and 5 attacks are the profile of a Primaris captain, even if technically he isn't Primaris. I'm going to finish my Marneus Calgar-based conversion and get this guy onto a table. He rocks.

Better show that off when you're done.

Pedro is really the only thing pulling Crimson Fists together though. Otherwise they're just worse Imperial Fists.

I don't agree with that at all. +1 to hit is often a better buff than ignoring cover. Hordes are a thing. Plaguebearers come in large numbers, with penalties to be hit, and are not in cover. I find the Crimson Fist buff at least as good as the Imperial Fist one.

And for what it's worth, the relics are also pretty great. I've had a lot of fun with the Fist of Vengeance on a Primaris Captain - though he might see a bit less action now Pedro's so good. The relic rifle is great too - albeit something of a duplcation of the Bellicos Bolt Rifle in the main book. It can replace a Stalker rifle though, so you can take a Lieutenant to an event and go with either Duty's Burden or Lament, depending on your opponent. Or neither, to save CPs.

To be honest there isn't a lot to choose between Crimson and Imperial Fists. If Crimson Fists can't have a siegebreaker cohort then that would be a pain. As far as I can tell they should be able to, as any other Imperial Fist successor can... though I guess it would be a little odd if Black Templars could. In fact the whole thing could really do with some clarification.

That relies on an opponent actually building for you to get that advantage. The only army Imperial Fists aren't gonna get a bonus against is Daemons. Otherwise, they don't care about your terrain or how you deploy. On top of that they entirely negate a set of army bonuses (and they're the most competitive usually to boot). Crimson Fists have none of that.

Relics are only going to give you so much when other armies have better ways to deliver smash dudes and Strats/rules to back them up.

It really doesn't rely on that. It's a situational bonus. So is ignoring cover. It's true that ignoring cover will probably come up more often than +1 to hit, but personally I think the hit bonus is more impactful.

A lot of high-performing armies feature big units. We're still in something of a horde meta. Being able to hit plaguebearers really helps.

Generally, the IF bonus is going to help you clear things like back field objectives. That's clearly a very useful thing. The CF bonus tends to help against front line stuff like ork boyz, daemons, cultists (who are probably not a thing any more to be fair) and guard. Some Eldar builds are fielding large units now too.

And the fist of Vengeance really helps a lot. You're probably playing a kind of gunline. Having your captain not just give rerolls but also pop out and smash a knight is seriously good. An IF gunline is a bit less able to punch back if the enemy gets to them.

DanielFM wrote:
1. So CF are a better counter to Orks than IF. Oh, that's so against the background! -_-
2. I didn't know Orks were a meta defining top army. As you are using them as your main argument to talk down IF, I would expect that to be the case.

Hordes generally are meta defining. Plaguebearers and bloodletters, for example. GSC are a top tier army too.

I’ve played using crimson fists at high level tournaments, using the WD rules. It definitely felt like a step up from the previous CTs. I particularly like that it works in the assault phase too.

Edit: I’m not claiming I did all that well. It was a solid 3:2 list. But now I have a lot of new toys.

bmsattler wrote:
Under Battlescribe, the warlord trait 'Marksman's Honors' indicates that it works with chapter relics. This is not what the codex Space Marines says. I haven't been able to find an FAQ that changes the codex's wording. I understand that Battlescribe is not an official source, but I wanted to check with people to see if I'm missing a change that was made.

Battlescribe is a great way to produce an illegal army list and get confused over rules. I'm amazed it's so popular. I've lost count of the number of times I've heard "but battlescribe says..."

Fair enough. I use the enhanced edition codexes so I have the full rules there with me on my phone.

Looking up points in the back would be a real pain. Luckily you can prod at the phone and they all pop up. Gets updated (eventually) with stuff like CA and FAQs too.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Fair enough. I use the enhanced edition codexes so I have the full rules there with me on my phone.

Looking up points in the back would be a real pain. Luckily you can prod at the phone and they all pop up. Gets updated (eventually) with stuff like CA and FAQs too.

Is that right? Seems like a pretty handy tool for gaming at least rather than having the full codex. Can you bookmark important pages?

Yes, but you hardly need to. It's broken down into chapters and they've got contents lists. So you can click through to the right unit easily. It's at least as easy as finding them in the paper book.

To be clear, it is the full codex. You have all the background, colour pics and stuff that a paper one would have. You can also spin some images round and things like that.

They take up quite a bit of space on my phone though, annoyingly, and cost as much as paper ones. I've got an ipad, which is an ideal way to look at the books, but it can't store all that many of them, unfortunately.

 godardc wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 godardc wrote:
+5 ? Maybe it's because if my meta, but big squads of gaunts, genestealers, necrons warriors and immortals, even full chaos or cultist squads are pretty common.
In a Marine vs Marine game I can see that being useless though

Thats largely the point. Yeah you'll potentially get it against infantry, but it will never trigger against large targets, or against any faction that isnt running 10-man squads of things. As a result, when compared to an always on ability like the IF prime CT, or a tailored successor chapter, its just not up to snuff.

How often does a knight or a tank get cover though? Not nearly as much as infantry. There is nothing in the successor tree remotely as good as extra hits for bolters on 6's. It is probably as good as any 2 successor traits. Does Kantor still give a +1 attack aura?

Yes he does !

Kantor’s aura is actually better now. Instead of affecting models within 6” he now affects models in units within 6”. That massively increases the range of the effect.

He’s also switching warlord trait to one that makes every CF model within 6” count as obsec, or double obsec if they have it already.

It’s true that the CF tactic doesn’t trigger all that often, but it’s extremely good when it does. +1 to hit tends to provide at least a 25% damage increase. Where you have penalties to hit, such as with auspex scan or against Plaguebearers, it gets even more powerful. I think my favourite use has been firing hellblasters against a unit of 10 blightlord terminators, though that doesn’t come up too often.

It’s odd that this CT gets criticised so much for being situational when so many other CTs are also situational. The RG CT has almost no effect against assault-focused armies for example, while the UM one does nothing against people who aren’t charging you. The non-situational ones like Salamanders are good, but tend not to benefit Primaris infantry all that much.

The bonuses that Crimson Fists get make them really great against hordes and vehicles. That’s a lot of the armies out there. As someone who’s played Crimson Fists since the first 8th edition book came out, I’m pretty happy with the state of them at the moment.

Anyway there’s no real need to argue about whose tactics are better. I think there’s a use for most of them.

 Smirrors wrote:
I am thinking of getting a Relic Deredeo as a centre piece for my army with its 5++ aura to give my IH airwing some early protection. With ironstone and duty eternal its only marginally weaker than a leviathan when it gets shot. Worthy idea?

I feel like the planes need that invul against a shooting army otherwise they are pretty fragile. I have seen a few lists run without it so I dont have any practical experience yet.

This could work. I think Deredeos are in a really good place now. I definitely think they’ll have a place in my Crimson Fist army. I’m thinking of getting a second one.

Heavy incinerators remain total trash, even for Imperial Fists. Imperial Fists can take some kind of gun that is not trash instead if they want.

Suppressors have more range and don't explode. They're also significantly cheaper per model and have twice as many shots if you're firing at smaller targets. They seem reasonably good.

Stalkers might be better than either, especially for Fists. All those shots buffed by the skyfire stratagem look like really good news. The main thing stopping me from getting one is that storm hawks probably do the job better than any of these. The stalker works much better as an objective holder though.

I was looking at using my Leviathan for my Crimson Fists. It does seem like a pretty awesome unit, especially as a target for the Tank Hunters stratagem. But I have to consider whether it's actually better than three stalkers, which are cheaper than it is. They have so much more range.

DanielFM wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Heavy incinerators remain total trash, even for Imperial Fists. Imperial Fists can take some kind of gun that is not trash instead if they want.

Suppressors have more range and don't explode. They're also significantly cheaper per model and have twice as many shots if you're firing at smaller targets. They seem reasonably good.

Stalkers might be better than either, especially for Fists. All those shots buffed by the skyfire stratagem look like really good news. The main thing stopping me from getting one is that storm hawks probably do the job better than any of these. The stalker works much better as an objective holder though.

I was looking at using my Leviathan for my Crimson Fists. It does seem like a pretty awesome unit, especially as a target for the Tank Hunters stratagem. But I have to consider whether it's actually better than three stalkers, which are cheaper than it is. They have so much more range.

I see people around here only favour units that are strictly better for the role with no thought about the rest. Maybe my place is in a more narrative oriented forum -_-
It's funny how I can show you with numbers an equivalent points value of Suppressors and Heavy Hellblasters can do the same damage to a certain (real, a Repulsor) vehicle profile, yet one is absolutely trash and the other get talked as reasonably good.
It's ok that you suggest Stalkers and Leviathans as substitutes. Everybody knows they are good and spam them in competitive lists.
I will give an opportunity to the Heavy Hellblasters and let you know (I don't know why, it sounds like I preach to a wall).
They fit a place in my battleplan (long ranged anti-tank infantry) that would be taken otherwise by Devastators (I don't do stunties anymore), Suppressors (stupid design) or Eliminators (I already have them, but as character killers).
If I see they disappoint me, they will go back to normal Hellblasters, no damage done or money spent

If you don’t lose any money, go ahead and test them. That’s fine.

Sorry if I come across badly. There are lots of units out there that don’t work. I don’t want to se GW rewarded for bad rules writing by you buying one of those units, then having to buy something else that isn’t awful.

To be clear though, they’re truly terrible. You’ve pointed out that they beat suppressors against T8 with no invulnerable save. Fair enough. Suppressors beat heavy hellblasters in literally all other situations. They’re also cheaper, faster, fly, and never blow themselves up. And suppressors aren’t even all that great.

DanielFM wrote:
Ok, just to bring some more value into my Heavy Hellblasters-as-antitank argument, I ran a spreadsheet with the most equivalent infantry anti-tank options with IF bennefits and no external buffs nor stratagems.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10dFE2XmjL1l6Zk1Xd_hCwlfy2tpdWUhPtHS5H1Mf1V0/edit?usp=sharing
In orange you can see the winner/ties for each vehicle stat category.
Main conclussions:
-Plasma Cannon Devastators sure pull their own weight while being the second cheapest option in this comparison. IF super doctrine does a lot for them.
-Plasma Inceptors are their equal, with the added bonus of not losing damage outside Devastator Doctrine (do also note that advantage for regular Hellblasters).
-The ever-so-praised Suppressors only win against T7 with 5+ or 4+ invulnerable saves.
-Heavy Bolter Centurions are great against T8 5++ or 4++. The same happens with Grav Centurions and T8 3+ or 2+ with no invulnerable. They are the most expensive by a hefty 30+ points, though

I didn't account for range (Plasma Inceptors are short ranged but come from Deepstrike, Grav Cannons are short ranged but would also have the Hurricane Bolters which I didn't bother to get into the calculations ) nor overheating (in a single shooting phase, overheating has no effect on damage output). Several considerations must be taken into account, as accesibility of overheating mitigation, number of models to control backline objectives, effectivity of stratagem use (Suppressors lose here by being 2 different units, Grav Centurions get their own stratagem at the cost of 1 additional point).

I know all of this is pretty moot, as people will tell me Leviathans/Relic Contemptors/Stalkers are way better. But 1) those can't do their job while contributing to hold objectives 2) I'm fed up of FW units throwing actual 40k units off balance by making them look worse (if I had my way they would be forbidden or heavily limited -as already heppens in some Spanish tournaments) and 3) people wanting a bit of variety can check the numbers and make an informed decision about how much are they shooting themselves in the foot by taking their prefered unit.

I don't think we've figured out what the best units are yet. There are a lot of factors at work here - many of them not revealed by maths.

I don't think Suppressors are a particularly awesome unit. They're ok. I think they make a good pick for a brigade where you want a cheap-ish fast attack unit that will accomplish something. They come out of this comparison poorly because you've got no targets <T7, so they're always wounding on at least a 4+. Even so they look ok I think. Relative to the others, it's notable that they're one of the cheapest models. They're quick and can deep strike if they want.

Ignoring overheating is not really reasonable in my opinion. It happens a lot, particularly to units like plasma inceptors. There are ways around it though, like if you're Crimson Fists and use the +1 to hit characters strat to target a knight. Failing that, they really want a captain nearby. Blowing up is a huge problem when targets have penalties to hit.

I did some sums of my own not long ago, looking at weapon options for Devastators. I went for a slightly more varied list of targets because I wanted to see how they'd do in less ideal scenarios. The plasma devastators came out pretty well in that situation too. Note I'm giving captain and lieutenant rerolls here. I think that's a reasonable assumption for these relatively static units.



I think the best weapons for Fists will be those that fire a decent number of shots with a decent chance to wound. Multi-shot plasma fits that description, but it's pretty rare. So Plasma devastators, as the only unit able to really spam heavy plasma cannons, come out looking very respectable. But so do most autocannon-type weapons. Things like heavy bolters and assault cannons are also good - their lower chance to wound and initial 1 damage being offset by having lots of shots and the IF super doctrine. They fall a bit flat against targets like riptides (and other monsters) which are tough but not vehicles.

I don't know if a Leviathan is a must take for Fists - probably not. But it has a very major virtue, shared with devastator centurions, which is that it's an awesome target for the Tank Hunters stratagem. Usually my instinct is to go for quite a bit of MSU fir my shooting units but the option to give those 20 storm cannon shots +1 to wound is hard to pass up - the thing (with captain and LT) averages 17 damage against a knight with rotated ion shields, or just kills it outright if it doesn't rotate.>

It does, I agree. This came out of a discussion over on B+C about which gun was more effective for devastators. I put the Deredeo in sort of as a control to look at whether devastators compared well to other stuff generally.

For what it's worth I think Fist Deredeos are pretty good. I had a theory that they'd achieve consistent damage against a lot of targets, and they do. In this comparison I've left the missiles off the roof because I think they're overcosted and you're likely to take the shield instead.

The Hellfire Palsma Carronade is probably worth considering too, which I didn't. 24" range is a major problem compared to the autocannons though, and the AP isn't necessarily all that relevant with so many invulnerables around. Overall I think the autocannons are still the best choice.

This is exactly why I think things like autocannon are what you want, rather than just going for 1-damage stuff. It’s why I included riptides in the calculations I did. Killing one of those with heavy bolters will take too long.

Plasma can definitely do a job. I like rapid fire hellblasters much more than heavy ones though. Coming out of an impulsor they look dangerous.

As a general rule though, plasma units tend to be glass hammers and/or need to get close to the enemy for best effect. And clearly they lose a lot of power against flyers and stuff with invulnerable saves, making them inconsistent. Right now I’d find it hard to recommend any plasma unit for a TAC list.

Azuza001 wrote:
Yeah for 71 pts you get 3 bikers, srg with a storm bolter, putting out 16 bolter shots and having 8 wounds at t5 moving 14" a turn. Price to performance bikes rock. I find the moment you start putting special weapons on them they suck because they become too point heavy for their effective use. I typically run 3 squads of 3 with a bike captain as a fast response team, getting where they need to and supporting the lines. Works very well.

Scout bikers actually get more shots for fewer points, thanks to having shotguns. They do only have a 4+ save but are a bit faster.

On the Impulsor, the thing that makes it good is being a fast, cheap unit that’s reasonably tough and has ok firepower. Iron Hands ones will be tough and Fist ones will be really quite shooty.

I’m not sure what the best gun to go on it is, but for my Fists I think it’ll be the AA stubbers. 6 shots doing 2 damage each, wounding most vehicles with fly on a 4+. 90 points for a vehicle with 17 shots within 12” sounds great.

The extra 2” off charges is really cool. You can use them as a screen because they’re very difficult to charge out of deep strike and it doesn’t hugely matter if they die anyway.

In my opinion they’re like a new, better, version of the dual AC razorback. The fly keyword in particular is worth loads.

I think the inquisitors look decent, but not auto-take. They’ve got the authority of the inquisition rule right. Slight shame they aren’t allowed to use any Primaris transports (they lack the Primaris keyword) but they’ll have uses.

I think Eisenhorn is probably the least useful. He’s basically not a particularly good beatstick. The pet daemonhost is fun but not actually very effective.

Cotaez is a great psyker, hampered by a not great discipline. But still makes a decent all round combatant and probably a decent use of his points.

Karamazov is a pretty effective fighter and comes with a proper gun, while on a very tough model with character protection. His LD11 bubble could be really handy if you were running an intercessor horde – though in that case you’re probably using an ancient to just be fearless.

I quite like Greyfax. Good denying, a little bit of character sniping and a great warlord trait. Anything that prevents the enemy from falling back is awesome. She’s unlikely to kill anything very much herself but locking a model in cc can be game-winning.

A couple of the strats are cool. Cyclonic torpedo has a pretty mad cost at 4CPs, but could be worth dropping on a Tau castle. Combined with something like the Orbital strike strat, an Impulsor and maybe the IF orbital strike warlord trait, lots of mortal wounds can be handed out if you see a lot of units in a blob. Otherwise getting CPs back if characters die nearby is a nice bonus and the warlord traits look worth having for 1CP.