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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Voss wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
That was AOS years ago, now AOS is very similar to 40k - actually worse in many ways, since terrain does nothing and there is even more mobility. AOS is now significantly more front-loaded than 40k, and the top lists are more ranged-focused as well, amazingly.


That's not particularly amazing. Ranged weapons were very curtailed in early AoS armies. Poor hit rolls, low damage, short ranges, etc, with only a few exceptions. Recently they've let ranged armies go nuts.


More ranged focus than 40k. Which is quite the amazing development given the history of the two games, and shows how off the rails AOS has gone recently.
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

And arguably how off the rails 40k has become as well.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Ordana wrote:
Altima wrote:
What if casualties were removed at the end of the round after each player had gone instead of immediately? Or some sort of split where infantry were removed immediately but vehicles/MC's were allowed to continue until they expired? Probably have to have an exception for close combat.

It would create a whole new slew of problems/contradictions and would result in a strange level of gaming the system, but it would somewhat solve the alpha strike issue in that people would get to use their toys for at least one round to retaliate.
Ive been wanting to try a game of 40k with Epics casualty rules for a while now. Unfortunately covid meant that idea has been on the shelf for a while.

Apocalypse has a similar system and, external balance aside, the core rules are at least not as pathetic as regular 40k.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut







Yeah the apoc system is 110% better and this is a solved problem in that game. (Through many ways, not just damage resolution).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/02 05:34:10


 
   
Made in dk
Khorne Veteran Marine with Chain-Axe






 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah the apoc system is 110% better and this is a solved problem in that game. (Through many ways, not just damage resolution).


Execpt the fact that no one really cares for that garbage specialist game, only thing its good for is being is being a theory simplifying 40k and makeing a damage phase is gonna solve anything. Super shooty armies are still gonna dominate, and melee/mixed list is still gonna be more passive the first round and still eat a damage phase. And basicly suffer just the same. However if armies and lists were more or less identical i defently see it working in terms of balance and getting rid of 2nd turn hangover.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/05/02 07:35:21


6000 World Eaters/Khorne  
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut







You know, I have played 4 games of Apoc - once as Slaanesh Daemons, twice as Imperial Guard, once as CWE, and I have not found that shooting armies dominate.

In fact, the best of my armies in Apoc is my Slaanesh Daemons so far, as the rest tensed to be indecisive tit-for-tat battles where there was very little "nuking" of units going on. Which is part of why Apoc is so fun.

My Slaanesh achieved decisive action where my other units didn't because they were melee, meaning they got board control very quickly (considering you can literally double move without losing any effectiveness, while shooting units cannot even fire after double moving).

The damage phase is not the only way to shut down alpha strikes. It is one way, but there are a LOT of other mechanics to do so as well. I can go into detail if you want but Apoc is far more than "40k but damage is at the end of the battle round".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/02 13:14:34


 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




yukishiro1 wrote:
Voss wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
That was AOS years ago, now AOS is very similar to 40k - actually worse in many ways, since terrain does nothing and there is even more mobility. AOS is now significantly more front-loaded than 40k, and the top lists are more ranged-focused as well, amazingly.


That's not particularly amazing. Ranged weapons were very curtailed in early AoS armies. Poor hit rolls, low damage, short ranges, etc, with only a few exceptions. Recently they've let ranged armies go nuts.


More ranged focus than 40k. Which is quite the amazing development given the history of the two games, and shows how off the rails AOS has gone recently.


Up until they redid the Slaanesh and DoK book I would have disagreed...but both of those armies saw massive nerfs to their melee options to the point that they are totally dependent on their (buffed) shooting shooting units so...yeah.

2500pts
2500
3000


 
   
Made in dk
Khorne Veteran Marine with Chain-Axe






 Unit1126PLL wrote:
You know, I have played 4 games of Apoc - once as Slaanesh Daemons, twice as Imperial Guard, once as CWE, and I have not found that shooting armies dominate.

In fact, the best of my armies in Apoc is my Slaanesh Daemons so far, as the rest tensed to be indecisive tit-for-tat battles where there was very little "nuking" of units going on. Which is part of why Apoc is so fun.

My Slaanesh achieved decisive action where my other units didn't because they were melee, meaning they got board control very quickly (considering you can literally double move without losing any effectiveness, while shooting units cannot even fire after double moving).

The damage phase is not the only way to shut down alpha strikes. It is one way, but there are a LOT of other mechanics to do so as well. I can go into detail if you want but Apoc is far more than "40k but damage is at the end of the battle round".


Fair enough, i thought it was damage resolution you only focussed on, because so many picks exactly just that. But with double moves ofc the playing field starts to even out. Now personally i havent tried it (i tried playing with damage resolution phase in 8th since some people wanted to give it a go in 40k, and they quickly didnt care for it ), only seen some introductionary games and maybe 2 batreps of the apocalypse game.

Regarldess GW makes it seem harder than it needs to be. Their balance team like Stu and the others got their head severly up their behinds, it really boggels me how often they make some obscure rule that is 200% aimed at fixing X problem, but does NOTHING whatsoever (meanwhile they FAQ nerf the factions that are allready biting the dust).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/02 20:53:04


6000 World Eaters/Khorne  
   
 
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