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Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Slayer-Fan123 wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also nobody is going to take the Sniper Rifle because it MIGHT hit a little better.


Personally, I feel like the Guard sniper rifle needs to change.

It's suppose to use hotshot powerpacks which in the hands of Scions means AP-2. So a Guard longlas should be S4 AP-2. Basically a one-shot Volley Gun that can ignore Look Out Sir and potentially cause Mortal Wounds on 6's.
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)


Scout sniper rifles claim the same, although AP2 wouldn't kill them either.

I like the idea of making Command Squads upgrades to officers. So the officers would be squqds again, rather than strictly individual characters.

It makes them unique from Veteran/Special Weapon Teams.
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

Just playing around with some ideas, how about adding equipment options to your units in a similar fashion to the "select your own Regimental Traits" system?

Each Imperial Guard detachment in your army may select one of the following equipment options, subject to any restrictions listed. Unless otherwise specified, upgrades can be applied to Infantry, Special, Heavy and Command Squads, as well as Company and Platoon Commanders, Commissars and Lord Commissars.

Carapace Armour: The standard Flak Armour is replaced by bulky layers of ceramite:
Every model in any unit can take Carapace armour for 2pts/model. A unit with this upgrade counts Ap-1 as Ap0.
May not be taken by regiments with the Catachan keyword.

Pathfinder: The unit eschews cumbersome heavy weapons in favour of precise sniper fire.
Infantry Squads with this upgrade may take an additional 2 Sniper Rifles instead of upgrading two models with a Heavy Weapon. Special Weapon Squads with Sniper Rifles may re-roll 1's to hit and wound with them if they haven't moved this turn.
May not be taken in units with the Tallarn keyword.

Chem-breathers: The regiment is known for their tenacity and stubbornness, although some suspect this is due to mind-altering narcotics delivered via standard-issue breather packs.
Every model in any unit may take Chem-breathers for 1pt/model. A unit with this upgrade ignores any penalties to Combat Attrition tests.
May not be taken by regiments with the Mordian keyword.

Hostile Environment Packs: HEP packs are expensive and rarely seen en-mass, but provide superior protection in environments contain toxic gas, pathogens, and atmospheric disturbances.
Every model in any unit may take HEP packs for 2pts/model. A unit with this upgrade ignores any negative modifiers to it's Movement stat. In addition they may add 1 to armour saves against weapons with the Blast trait.

Hunting Knifes: The regiment is well-trained in hand-to-hand combat, and have developed particular knife designs and fighting stances unique to their home planet.
Every model in any unit may take Hunting Knives for 2pts/model. A unit with this upgrade adds 1 to their Attack characteristic in the turn in which they charge, were charged, or made a Heroic Intervention.
Regiments with the Catachan keyword may take this upgrade for 1pt/model instead

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/12 10:19:45


   
Made in de
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






Just out of curiosity: why should the Tallarns not take snipers? Is there some fluff I missed?

~5750 build and painted 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Why would carapace armour only ignore AP-1? Carapace armour had always provided a 4+ save. That’s what Scions wear.
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




The guard sniper unit needs a complete re-working. Give it character targeting and deal Mortals on a 5+, make it s4 ap2, and d2. make it 42" heavy 1.
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

Pyroalchi wrote:Just out of curiosity: why should the Tallarns not take snipers? Is there some fluff I missed?


I pictured them as fast-moving armoured units, rather than ones which would dig-in and make sniper nests. I may be wrong, but was trying to put a restriction in there.

Jarms48 wrote:Why would carapace armour only ignore AP-1? Carapace armour had always provided a 4+ save. That’s what Scions wear.


Given how cheap Guard units are I thought this would be more suitable. Good point though that it's always been a 4+, no real reason to change it.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:The guard sniper unit needs a complete re-working. Give it character targeting and deal Mortals on a 5+, make it s4 ap2, and d2. make it 42" heavy 1.


Snipers already have character targeting, don't see why Guard snipers are suddenly better than Marine ones.

   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

Tallarn had snipers listed as a signature special weapon, so they absolutely do use them.


Commissars and Lord Commissars should not get regimental upgrades. They've gone super hardcore into making it clear that they don't match Commissars to worlds they hail from.
   
Made in gb
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






Why is everyone trying to give buffs to regular AM snipers when Ratlings exist? They have good BS, good stealth buffs, can deploy anywhere outwith 18" of an enemy model,can hide after sniping, and are 2 Power/25pts per unit of 5. Plastic Ratlings easy solve.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/12 13:06:50


 
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

Because while Ratlings exist, they're not Guardsmen?

I mean, you can proxy Ratlings with the cool Cadian/Catachan Snipers...but it ain't the same thing. And it's not like we did not have capable Guard Sniper rules from FW for the Elysian Detachment 99.

   
Made in gb
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






The AM army has a dedicated sniper unit. A basic Guardsman who takes a sniper rifle should not be better than that dedicated sniper unit.
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




 Gert wrote:
The AM army has a dedicated sniper unit. A basic Guardsman who takes a sniper rifle should not be better than that dedicated sniper unit.


Well seeing as how Tanith 1st and by extention Larkin are now table top units, the should be better than Ratlings. Ratlings are have many abilities that normal guard don't get. That's true, but Guard should have equal or better abilities when using sniper models, just by cost alone.
   
Made in gb
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






A Special Weapons Squad can take 3 SR at 40pts compared to a Ratling unit of 5 at 35pts.
The Ratlings have -1 Move, S, T, WS, Ld, and Armour Save. They get +2 to saves in cover and +1 BS on a Guardsman unit.
A SWS can benefit from Orders, Reg Doctrine, and more Strategems than Ratlings.
A Vostroyan SWS with SR's would have a range of 42" and for 1CP can get a flat +1 buff to hit rolls with the Firstborn Pride Strat.
A Cadian SWS with SR's would be able to reroll 1's if it didn't move (very likely) and if then ordered to Take Aim!, would reroll all failed hits.
SWS are fine the way they are. You just need to look beyond the basic profile and see what tactics you can employ using the tools a Codex gives you.
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

Additionally, special weapons operators in Guard are fluffed as being specialists. They're not just giving Anonymous Redshirt a sniper rifle and he shoots better.

The argument could be made that sniper rifles should be removed from the Special Weapons list for Guard, and I'll agree with it. The original Detachment 99 gave you "Veteran Sniper Teams" as an Elite choice. 1-3 teams of 2 models functioning like a Heavy Weapons Team, a spotter and a sniper, which you were allowed to deploy separately. They had Deep Strike if no Dedicated Transport or Infiltrate if you did not Deep Strike.

Putting Guard Snipers as a Veteran unit, that gets you 1-3 choices that get deployed individually as spotter/sniper teams gets them a role that Ratlings do not have. Especially if Spotters end up being a buffing element for artillery.

Also, lol @ Special Weapon Squads benefitting from Orders. They don't get voxes, so you're required to babysit them with an officer if you choose to do that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/12 14:12:04


 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




Tacoma, WA, USA

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Lasgun fuselage is a stupid idea. Just say you want BS3+ Infantry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also nobody is going to take the Sniper Rifle because it MIGHT hit a little better.
The point would be they aren’t, except when firing Lasguns as a group.

As for better Sniper Rifle accuracy, it is to balance the weapon upgrade with the other ‘free’ special weapons that are currently 5 points to the Sniper Rifles 2 points without altering the weapon that is used on other units.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/12 14:13:32


 
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

 Kanluwen wrote:
Additionally, special weapons operators in Guard are fluffed as being specialists. They're not just giving Anonymous Redshirt a sniper rifle and he shoots better.

The argument could be made that sniper rifles should be removed from the Special Weapons list for Guard, and I'll agree with it. The original Detachment 99 gave you "Veteran Sniper Teams" as an Elite choice. 1-3 teams of 2 models functioning like a Heavy Weapons Team, a spotter and a sniper, which you were allowed to deploy separately. They had Deep Strike if no Dedicated Transport or Infiltrate if you did not Deep Strike.

Putting Guard Snipers as a Veteran unit, that gets you 1-3 choices that get deployed individually as spotter/sniper teams gets them a role that Ratlings do not have. Especially if Spotters end up being a buffing element for artillery.

Also, lol @ Special Weapon Squads benefitting from Orders. They don't get voxes, so you're required to babysit them with an officer if you choose to do that.


I like the idea of a dedicated sniper unit. Might have to be two separate units however in a similar fashion to Sniper Drones if you plan on the individual sniper/spotter deployment.

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Jarms48 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also nobody is going to take the Sniper Rifle because it MIGHT hit a little better.


Personally, I feel like the Guard sniper rifle needs to change.

It's suppose to use hotshot powerpacks which in the hands of Scions means AP-2. So a Guard longlas should be S4 AP-2. Basically a one-shot Volley Gun that can ignore Look Out Sir and potentially cause Mortal Wounds on 6's.

Which nobody will still take over the other Special Weapon options because there are zero roles it can fill compared to the other ones. Hell I'd rather take a Grenade Launcher and that's REALLY outclassed by the others.

Sniper rifle only works when you can get it in mass (like with Ratlings) or the stat is over the top (like with Vindicares).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 alextroy wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Lasgun fuselage is a stupid idea. Just say you want BS3+ Infantry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also nobody is going to take the Sniper Rifle because it MIGHT hit a little better.
The point would be they aren’t, except when firing Lasguns as a group.

As for better Sniper Rifle accuracy, it is to balance the weapon upgrade with the other ‘free’ special weapons that are currently 5 points to the Sniper Rifles 2 points without altering the weapon that is used on other units.

Nobody is going to not fire all their Lasguns at the same target. That's GW logic with the new Melta dudes, and nobody is doing the math on them with one shot.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/12 14:30:09


CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

 Valkyrie wrote:

I like the idea of a dedicated sniper unit. Might have to be two separate units however in a similar fashion to Sniper Drones if you plan on the individual sniper/spotter deployment.

I think you've misunderstood.

The sniper/spotter thing was a single based unit. Each team of 2 could deploy individually however. I believe that Anphelion Project v2 made it so that the Spotter could grant a benefit(I want to say Ignores Cover or +1BS?) to the Sniper if the Spotter did not fire their Lasgun that round.

That whole concept is part of the big reasonings for why I've always pointed to for Guard HWTs getting the "deploy independently" bit in my wishlisting/suggestions though. "Horde armies" imply that there's a lot of targets on the field, not just a lot of bodies in squads. Having Guard becoming a "horde" that has a lot of individual targets for you to chew through would give them a kind of interesting place without necessarily messing around too much with things.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/12 14:41:17


 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Give Sniper rifles S5 ap2 d1 with the 6+ mortals, make grenade launchers ignore LoS, make Meltas S8 ap4 d6+2, and keep plasma the same. I love the idea of making command squads all commanders, because they can that cuts down on the All plasma/melta Scion death squads that were clogging up all my games in 8th.

Just limit them to specific weapons, they already invalidate Veteran squads and Special weapon squads.

Command squads should be 3 PLs and a CC, that can give orders or give a good large aura ability. Not a 4 man murder squad of hot plasma.
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

 Kanluwen wrote:
 Valkyrie wrote:

I like the idea of a dedicated sniper unit. Might have to be two separate units however in a similar fashion to Sniper Drones if you plan on the individual sniper/spotter deployment.

I think you've misunderstood.

The sniper/spotter thing was a single based unit. Each team of 2 could deploy individually however. I believe that Anphelion Project v2 made it so that the Spotter could grant a benefit(I want to say Ignores Cover or +1BS?) to the Sniper if the Spotter did not fire their Lasgun that round.

That whole concept is part of the big reasonings for why I've always pointed to for Guard HWTs getting the "deploy independently" bit in my wishlisting/suggestions though. "Horde armies" imply that there's a lot of targets on the field, not just a lot of bodies in squads. Having Guard becoming a "horde" that has a lot of individual targets for you to chew through would give them a kind of interesting place without necessarily messing around too much with things.


No I'm familiar with the Elysian unit, I just considered if we went down the route of separate units for the sniper/spotter. Perhaps they should remain a single 2W unit similar to HWT.

   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

There's no reason to have them as separate units for the sniper/spotter and I didn't think either of us suggested it?

I simply said that Spotters could get an artillery buffing bit...which isn't a bad idea, as it can be used to buff up the cost of the unit by mandating the Spotter taking a Vox-Caster.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/12 15:50:56


 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

I think having heavy weapon teams being lone bases would be quite problematic and just annoying.
Although Tau already do the same with their drones so it's not like that's stopped GW before.

The problem with current snipers is there's no room for movement. Space Marines already have snipers and they're S4 AP0, that profile won't change.

I like the idea of specialist sniper teams, you can justify a 2-man sniper rifle being slightly more powerful.
However, Ratlings already perform that role and I don't think it's good to have two very similar units doing essentially the same thing just slightly differently. It worked for D-99 because they didn't use Ratlings.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/14 08:56:55


 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




The eliminator or whatever their sniper primaris is, weapon profiles are WAY better than just S4 AP0.
   
Made in gb
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






I think kiro was referring to Scouts but yes Eliminators are exceptionally good units.
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

Oh I forgot about eliminators.
Any Primaris unit just doesn't exist in my brain, lol.

That's fairly consistent with what I said though. I'd put "Primaris shenigans" on par with two-man weapon teams for justification for better sniper rifles.

The biggest problem then is that Ratlings exist and I don't think two very similar units should perform essentially the exact same role.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



London

 Kanluwen wrote:

Sergeant Ripper Jackson for Catachans? She was a store opening model repurposed and given a Made to Order run.
That Catachan Colonel? He was a store anniversary model repurposed so independent shops could have a big ticket item.

"More love than a lot of other factions", PAH.


Oh drat I missed that!
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I think having heavy weapon teams being lone bases would be quite problematic and just annoying.

That would be the point to be honest. Guard don't need to be hundreds of models swarming the field to maintain the dynamic people want of a "horde army".

Having lots of individual elements would accomplish the same thing.
Guard Heavy Weapon Teams being able to "entrench" from their squad and become an individual unit reduces the footprint of the Guard unit but also leaves the HWT vulnerable.
Guard Heavy Weapon Squads being a "buy 1, get up to 2 extra units!" upon splitting off is not unreasonable or overly weird in this day and age.

Although Tau already do the same with their drones so it's not like that's stopped GW before.

Drones are a weird thing in that they effectively are wargear, not a unit feature.

The problem with current snipers is there's no room for movement. Space Marines already have snipers and they're S4 AP0, that profile won't change.

There's plenty of room for movement, the problem is that you're too focused on the "sniper" part.

I like the idea of specialist sniper teams, you can justify a 2-man sniper rifle being slightly more powerful.
However, Ratlings already perform that role and I don't think it's good to have two very similar units doing essentially the same thing just slightly differently. It worked for D-99 because they didn't use Ratlings.

Ratlings perform no role that Special Weapon Squads armed with Sniper Rifles couldn't fill out, going off of your logic. It's their special rules that make them different. The same thing can function for Sniper Teams.

It worked for D-99 as well because it wasn't just a sniper. It was the spotter as well. The sniper+spotter dynamic is a well-used trope for modern military fiction/video games. It's well-received in the context of Guard because it goes into a mechanic we already have: the weapons team. Having a two Guardsmen plus one weapon base is not unfamiliar or strange.
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

Yes, special weapon teams can perform a similar role to Ratlings. Arguably not as well though.
So why do special weapon teams need sniper rifles?

I already agree that two man sniper teams were interesting and can be again.
But just because two units achieve the same thing with slightly different special rules, that doesn't mean they're both necessary units.

But I know my KISS approach to wargames is unpopular with many people in the 40k community.
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

What you're missing is that special weapon squads don't need sniper rifles. They also don't take them! Hell, Infantry Squads don't need sniper rifles!

Removing those options and making sniper teams and ratlings the two options lets you work things in a proper divide. And even if you didn't give the spotters rules for interacting with artillery/indirect fire or whatever--the simple fact that it's a 2W model with a lasgun and a sniper rifle makes them different to Ratlings which are just a big blob o' snipers.

   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

Thats a distinction without a difference to me.
   
 
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