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mrtomski wrote:
Hi Guys

I've got my core list and bought most of the models.

I'm most worried about having enough anti tank.

In terms of high s weapons in my list i have:

4 Las cannons (mortis contemptor)
3 storm cannons (leviathan dread)
4 frag cannons

I'm also considering getting a thunder hammer captain.

What do people think? Is this enough high s damage to take out tanks etc? What would be good ways of getting more?

Anti-tank is a problem deathwatch have for sure. Also you can only have two storm cannons if I am not mistaken. Frag cannons are pretty solid anti-tank, but you'll need more than four. Is the point value 2k?

In my 2k list I ran last week, I ran three Veteran squads with 3 combi-meltas delivered by Razorbacks. They were the MVP of the match. I need more experience with them, but DW have the tools to deliver meltas with things like storm shields, obsec, and some great strats to improve them.

Not at all a large enough sample size. One match isn't enough to really suggest their widespread use. After all, some of these units are hard to put together without a ton of time/money. But if you're trying to do full DW, don't forget that melta is still a thing, and that DW have tools to mitigate the worst parts about it.

Anybody else try melta vets in the storm bolter meta? My build ended up being 3 combis, two storm shields, and a frag Cannon inside a razorback for a pittance more than the 5 Intercessor, 5 Hellblaster squad.

Why in the world would you spend points on any Combi-Weapon not a Combi-Plasma?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Why in the world would you spend points on any Combi-Weapon not a Combi-Plasma?

Why on earth would you take anything other than frag cannons, storm bolters and stormshield mooks?

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Why in the world would you spend points on any Combi-Weapon not a Combi-Plasma?

Why on earth would you take anything other than frag cannons, storm bolters and stormshield mooks?

Combi-Plasmas would be cheaper than Frag Cannons I guess. That's about the only reasoning I can think up.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Why in the world would you spend points on any Combi-Weapon not a Combi-Plasma?

Why on earth would you take anything other than frag cannons, storm bolters and stormshield mooks?

Combi-Plasmas would be cheaper than Frag Cannons I guess. That's about the only reasoning I can think up.

I want to say they're 15 points. For 25 points you get a much better gun. It's lethal to all targets in the game and makes charging you with an absolutely hard as nails thing to do. Even tanks charging into multiple frag cannons will lose some wounds.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Why in the world would you spend points on any Combi-Weapon not a Combi-Plasma?

Because the Vets don't need help dying. Mathhammer also shows they cause more damage than the plasma for AT.

Keep in mind we're talking mono DW solutions here, which last I checked are still a marine army, so there's really no point in making choices based on min max.

The melta was fun as hell, and the extra couple bolter shots were fantastic when hunting big characters. With knights hitting the stage near me, I can see these suicide melta squads putting in work.

Better than Plasma? Only at below 6"...

As far as antitank DW options go, I've just stripped a Xiphon and I'm stoked to add it to the armoury. It is exactly what DW need imo. Plus you know, jet-black interceptors screaming overhead is cool.

Xiphons are amazing as well. I'm convinced they'll eventually get nerfed like all FW pieces, though.

I'll struggle to fit the xiphon in my list and not sure I want to shell out on another fw model. Although it does look cool, I worry about the bs 3, as it would be hard to get rerolls.

Anyone had luck with a vanguard vet hammer squad?

I think with hellblasters, 4 Las, storm cannons, I have a solid fire base... but there is something missing for the added punch.

mrtomski wrote:
I'll struggle to fit the xiphon in my list and not sure I want to shell out on another fw model. Although it does look cool, I worry about the bs 3, as it would be hard to get rerolls.

Anyone had luck with a vanguard vet hammer squad?

I think with hellblasters, 4 Las, storm cannons, I have a solid fire base... but there is something missing for the added punch.

What are your captains up to?

Best loadout for Primaris Watch Captain?

I understand there might be more optimal HQ options but I'm not putting Primaris next to standard size Marines. My OCD forbids it from happening.

 TheMostWize wrote:
Best loadout for Primaris Watch Captain?

I understand there might be more optimal HQ options but I'm not putting Primaris next to standard size Marines. My OCD forbids it from happening.

Personally I'd still opt for the plasma pistol powerfist option. He's putting out a respectable amount of hurt in CQC and can make pew pew noises with his plasma pistol for 106 points I believe. Otherwise I'd go with a Primaris with a master crafted auto bolt rifle and power sword. He won't be as good in melee by a long shot, but he will offer respectable shooting at longer ranges with his gun for 98 points. Considering your shooting is already pretty solid i'd prefer to have a more combat capable leader for the extra points to ward off some attackers, but I could see opting for the shootier guy.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 TheMostWize wrote:
Best loadout for Primaris Watch Captain?

I understand there might be more optimal HQ options but I'm not putting Primaris next to standard size Marines. My OCD forbids it from happening.

Personally I'd still opt for the plasma pistol powerfist option. He's putting out a respectable amount of hurt in CQC and can make pew pew noises with his plasma pistol for 106 points I believe. Otherwise I'd go with a Primaris with a master crafted auto bolt rifle and power sword. He won't be as good in melee by a long shot, but he will offer respectable shooting at longer ranges with his gun for 98 points. Considering your shooting is already pretty solid i'd prefer to have a more combat capable leader for the extra points to ward off some attackers, but I could see opting for the shootier guy.

This was partly what I was thinking. A decent CC option to fend off models from intercessors. Guess I'll give both a try and see how it goes!

Yeah a hammer captain with catellan of the black vault and a jump pack with the beacon could be nasty. Dmg 4 hammer with 5 attacks rerolling 1s to hit, rerolling to wound with tactics , and +1 to wound strat. Use the beacon to reposition frag cannon team to your location and put a hurting on a target like a knight. Pop the strat that allows the captain to attack again and potentially do up to a max 40 dmg. You buff him with a Libby using veil of time and might of heros for the charge reroll/ attack first, and +1 S attack and toughness.

TheunlikelyGamer wrote:
Yeah a hammer captain with catellan of the black vault and a jump pack with the beacon could be nasty. Dmg 4 hammer with 5 attacks rerolling 1s to hit, rerolling to wound with tactics , and +1 to wound strat. Use the beacon to reposition frag cannon team to your location and put a hurting on a target like a knight. Pop the strat that allows the captain to attack again and potentially do up to a max 40 dmg.

The problem here is that Blood Angels do this exact thing, but better.

BA usually don't have the damage 4 hammer, since it gives away slay warlord for free.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

TheunlikelyGamer wrote:
Yeah a hammer captain with catellan of the black vault and a jump pack with the beacon could be nasty. Dmg 4 hammer with 5 attacks rerolling 1s to hit, rerolling to wound with tactics , and +1 to wound strat. Use the beacon to reposition frag cannon team to your location and put a hurting on a target like a knight. Pop the strat that allows the captain to attack again and potentially do up to a max 40 dmg.

The problem here is that Blood Angels do this exact thing, but better.

True but I wouldn't call it a problem. some people like myself only play pure armies. This is our option for a similar unit. Was also thinking the captain could shoot the tempest shell at something with his pistol on the way in for d3 mortals.

TheunlikelyGamer wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

TheunlikelyGamer wrote:
Yeah a hammer captain with catellan of the black vault and a jump pack with the beacon could be nasty. Dmg 4 hammer with 5 attacks rerolling 1s to hit, rerolling to wound with tactics , and +1 to wound strat. Use the beacon to reposition frag cannon team to your location and put a hurting on a target like a knight. Pop the strat that allows the captain to attack again and potentially do up to a max 40 dmg.

The problem here is that Blood Angels do this exact thing, but better.

True but I wouldn't call it a problem. some people like myself only play pure armies. This is our option for a similar unit.

In that case I see your point. I also like to play my factions pure, but struggle to justify taking an option that is entirely worse than the direct equivalent found in another book. Without the 3d6 charge though I do find it hard to justify taking a jump captain though. He won't get in combat turn one, probably won't get in combat turn two and even then he is not that killy. Also you probably wan't him around you're guys to buff them. However keeping him on the ground buffing and as a viable counter attack unit could work, yeah. Personally I'd skimp out on paying the points for the JP, but yeah I wouldn't say he would be bad in the role of protecting your shooty boys.

Martel732 wrote:BA usually don't have the damage 4 hammer, since it gives away slay warlord for free.

And Deathwatch wouldn't have a four damage hammer without making them the warlord either.

Bit confused about veterans, can they have a storm bolter AND a chainsword ?

Rogerio134134 wrote:
Bit confused about veterans, can they have a storm bolter AND a chainsword ?

Yes. Always swap out the pistol for a chainsword. You'll VERY rarely ever be in a position to use the pistol and it saves you from having to pay that stupid one point for it.

So all DW really loses is red rampage. DW has actual useful troops. More than makes up, imo.

Martel732 wrote:
So all DW really loses is red rampage. DW has actual useful troops. More than makes up, imo.

Compared to the blood angel captain you lose
Turn 1 charge, (Massive)
3d6 charge (Massive)
Psychic power support to buff your attacks,
stratagem to give you d3 additional attacks,
relic to ignore overwatch, (Massive)
Stratagem to give the guy a 6+ FNP and one more attack

What you gain
Re-roll ones to wound if you are attacking the force org slot that your whole army gets.
Special issue ammo bolt pistol

--

There really is no contest. The blood angel smash captain is king. If you are looking for a smash captain you will go to the blood angels every time.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

Rogerio134134 wrote:
Bit confused about veterans, can they have a storm bolter AND a chainsword ?

Yes. Always swap out the pistol for a chainsword. You'll VERY rarely ever be in a position to use the pistol and it saves you from having to pay that stupid one point for it.

Thanks, just putting together a squad and wasn't sure!

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
So all DW really loses is red rampage. DW has actual useful troops. More than makes up, imo.

Compared to the blood angel captain you lose
Turn 1 charge, (Massive)
3d6 charge (Massive)
Psychic power support to buff your attacks,
stratagem to give you d3 additional attacks,
relic to ignore overwatch, (Massive)
Stratagem to give the guy a 6+ FNP and one more attack

What you gain
Re-roll ones to wound if you are attacking the force org slot that your whole army gets.
Special issue ammo bolt pistol

--

There really is no contest. The blood angel smash captain is king. If you are looking for a smash captain you will go to the blood angels every time.

I was thinking the generic capt with no relics. People bring multiples a lot, and only one can do those things. They usually die the turn thereafter. I'm not sure how good the whole approach really is.

Martel732 wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
So all DW really loses is red rampage. DW has actual useful troops. More than makes up, imo.

Compared to the blood angel captain you lose
Turn 1 charge, (Massive)
3d6 charge (Massive)
Psychic power support to buff your attacks,
stratagem to give you d3 additional attacks,
relic to ignore overwatch, (Massive)
Stratagem to give the guy a 6+ FNP and one more attack

What you gain
Re-roll ones to wound if you are attacking the force org slot that your whole army gets.
Special issue ammo bolt pistol

--

There really is no contest. The blood angel smash captain is king. If you are looking for a smash captain you will go to the blood angels every time.

I was thinking the generic capt with no relics. People bring multiples a lot, and only one can do those things. They usually die the turn thereafter. I'm not sure how good the whole approach really is.

Even without relics the blood angel captain still works and you can chuck one every turn. And yeah they will die the turn after, but even then they soak up firepower that the rest of your army does not need to take. 5 wounds with a 3++ and 6+++ can take a few kickings.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
So all DW really loses is red rampage. DW has actual useful troops. More than makes up, imo.

Compared to the blood angel captain you lose
Turn 1 charge, (Massive)
3d6 charge (Massive)
Psychic power support to buff your attacks,
stratagem to give you d3 additional attacks,
relic to ignore overwatch, (Massive)
Stratagem to give the guy a 6+ FNP and one more attack

What you gain
Re-roll ones to wound if you are attacking the force org slot that your whole army gets.
Special issue ammo bolt pistol

--

There really is no contest. The blood angel smash captain is king. If you are looking for a smash captain you will go to the blood angels every time.

I was thinking the generic capt with no relics. People bring multiples a lot, and only one can do those things. They usually die the turn thereafter. I'm not sure how good the whole approach really is.

Even without relics the blood angel captain still works and you can chuck one every turn. And yeah they will die the turn after, but even then they soak up firepower that the rest of your army does not need to take. 5 wounds with a 3++ and 6+++ can take a few kickings.

Absolutely true - no contest on any of these points. That isn't to say the jump captain isn't a good option if you need that type of unit and can't find the points to fit it into your list otherwise. Sometimes quantity can be its own quality and you bring a couple of these thunder hammer/storm bolter guys that don't eat up as much CP, aren't relying on additional psykers, and don't require a whole other detachment to unlock. Obviously not the most efficient, but then again this is a marine army

Anybody tried the meltafist Termie captain?

Normal marines look awful next to primaris, just built a veteran squad and put them next to my intercessors.... Might have to go pure primaris

Whatever you are doing don't bring 10 man primaris squads if there are knights on the table. One of them will have the endless death to marines gun which in my last games this weekend was able to remove a unit per turn. And the other knights with battle cannons + whatever else they were shooting removed another one.

I ran 2 bats
1x watch capt
1x libby
1x primaris + aggressors
1x primaris + bolter inceptors
1x vet KT 2x shields, 2x frag cannons, 1x storm bolter (ds)

1x watch capt
1x libby
1x primaris + 3 aggs
1x primaris + 3 incept
1x vet kt, 5x storm bolters (ds)

1x BA SC
2x captian slammy
1x meph

In both games vs knights I lost 2 units of mixed primaris (aggressors + inceptors) both turn 1 and turn 2. Was effectively tabled by end of turn 3 (a couple characters running around here and there but nothing that was going to do me any good). Not enough range given the random deployment and insane mobility + range combo of those knights.

Also dark eldar shred them and then there's the ever present threat of eldar reapers. I was enthusiastic about DW making primaris usable but after this weekends debacle I'm seriously having second thoughts.

Not being able to deepstrike until turn 2, relying on smash captains and frag cannons to deal with 3+ knight lists and not having the range to threaten anything going 1st turn one turned my 2 DW battalion + BA into a punching bag against the netlist (not to disparage but just to say the lists were what you would see at the top table of a GT, maybe the players aren't as good but they sure do have all the hot models) in my local meta.

I managed to kill 1 knight and some armigers the first game and just the 1 knight in the second (had a second knight down to 4 wounds) but was effectively tabled after their third round. The third game v eldar was close and if it wasn't for some -4 to hit reflecting mortal wounds back at me harlequin shenanigans that I admittedly wasn't prepared for I probably would have won.

I'll probably refine a few things (second bat gets hellblasters instead of aggs and inceptors) and try again but the ease at which top tier armies remove primaris is frustrating.