Switch Theme:

Watch what you buy on ebay: TMP is warning of a recaster  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Using Inks and Washes






Here is a link to the article:

http://theminiaturespage.com/news/9150/

These things are always difficult, so just be careful and ask for additional pictures if necessary.

check this

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=44124&item=8826656737</A" ws cgi.ebay.com http:>

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=44124&item=140000982378

and check these as well, note the dates:-

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=44124&item=8822603713

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=44124&item=130000913302

There are many all metal minis up for sale, very little unboxed plastic and many of them are repeat sales.


2014 will be the year of zero GW purchases. Kneadite instead of GS, no paints or models. 2014 will be the year I finally make the move to military models and away from miniature games. 
   
Made in us
Most Glorious Grey Seer





Everett, WA

There was a guy doing this a few years ago with Epic Armageddon models. This is why I try to only buy plastics online - at least that way I know it's legit.

Reading's for morons who can't understand pictures.

 
   
Made in us
Plastictrees



Amongst the Stars, In the Night

It's one thing to cast up stuff for your own personal usage, but to recast and sell it is dispicable and the people that do so are no more than vermin to the hobby. Doubly so when it's the products of a tiny little little company like Shadowforge or Amazon, who already are working on razor thin margins.

OT Zone: A More Wretched Hive of Scum and Villany
The Loyal Slave learns to Love the Lash! 
   
Made in gb
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard




The drinking halls of Fenris or South London as its sometimes called

yeah maybe we should tell them to recast big companies like Gw stuff and sell to us real cheap.

R.I.P Amy Winehouse


 
   
Made in us
Honored Helliarch on Hypex





very NW IL USA

people have done that, and GW doesn't ask them nicely to please stop.

 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




Hey,
Posted By fullheadofhair on 07/30/2006 2:22 PM

note the dates


And the lack of unrecastable Slotta bases.


Playa

   
Made in gb
Mindless Spore Mine





"It's one thing to cast up stuff for your own personal usage, but to recast and sell it is dispicable"

So it's alright for you to deny a company it's income by recasting, as long as it's for your own personnal use???

Don't think so some how.

   
Made in us
Plastictrees



Amongst the Stars, In the Night

Posted By Durham_red on 07/31/2006 7:02 AM
"It's one thing to cast up stuff for your own personal usage, but to recast and sell it is dispicable">

So it's alright for you to deny a company it's income by recasting, as long as it's for your own personnal use???

Don't think so some how.


In which case you'd be wrong, at least in the US where current copyright law allows consmers to do whatever they want to products they've purchased so long as it's only for "personal use". That is it can not and must not be put up for sale, resale, traded, given as a gift, or anything similar that is not just "personal use". Even then, casting, particularly metal casting (but resin casting as well) is a labor and time intensive prospect and is generally not worth doing for personal use.

What your getting confused is that someone casting for personal use isn't denying a company it's income as no company has a "right" to someone's money for using their product however they see fit in the privacy of their own home (though they sure would like you to think they have that right). What they *do* have a right to is to prevent anyone from using their product/intellectual property for profit/gain. Hence personal use = ok, recasting = bad.

OT Zone: A More Wretched Hive of Scum and Villany
The Loyal Slave learns to Love the Lash! 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut



Westchester, NY

nyarlathotep667 sorry I think your splitting hairs here. While it is legal for you to recast for your personal use. If everyone did it the company would go under just as quickly as if they were casting for resale.

IMHO and my $.02, RB

Word Bearers--5000 W1 L1 D0
Grey Knights--7000 W13 L8 D1
Thousand Sons---W8 L3 D0
Adeptus Mechanicus--WLD
"We own the Night" 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
The Tyranny of Evil Men




Los Angeles

While it is legal for you to recast for your personal use. If everyone did it the company would go under just as quickly as if they were casting for resale.


And yet somehow, even with recasting legal for personal use, GW hasn't gone out of business--and if they do, the blame will rest squarely on the management--and as far as I know, recasting for personal use isn't a big issue for GW. The vast majority of gamers lack the time, willpower, money, or simply the balls necessary to go about recasting something.

And as far as Nyarly "splitting hairs," I think you're a little misguided. He's talking about whether or not the sale of counterfeit merchandise is permissible. That's not splitting hairs. Burning a DVD as a backup for when you destroy the original is a far cry from burning DVDs for all your friends.

"The last known instance of common sense happened at a GT. A player tried to use the 'common sense' argument vs. Mauleed to justify his turbo-boosted bikes getting a saving throw vs. Psycannons. The player's resulting psychic death scream erased common sense from the minds of 40k players everywhere. " - Ozymandias 
   
Made in ca
Charging Orc Boar Boy




SW, Ontario, Canada

This guy does do GW

I bought a bunch of Praetorians fomr weewarriors a year or so ago. There are pewter-ish but very brittle.

The OTZone - A More Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy
doveryay, no proveryay - Russian Proverb - Trust, But Verify. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Seattle, WA, USA

Where did I put that post... okey...

I won't debate morality, but legally, in the United States, you are bound by the 1976 Copyright Act, which provides the copyright holder with the exclusive rights to reproduce, distribute, perform, and display the protected work, as well as the right to prepare derivative works based on the underlying protected work (section 106). You are given some leeway by the Fair Use Doctrine (section 107) which sets forth the following four factors for determining whether a particular use is a fair use:
1) The purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes.
2) The nature of the copyrighted work.
3) The amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole.
4) The effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

So, if you make copies of a GW bit that would, say, 1) Be used for advertising your company or business (I guess giving away cast copies of bolters?), 2) Be used for gaming (casting a miniature that can be used to cure cancer wouldn't infringe), 3) I think GW has said 95% original, so you can use 5% of GW models in a cast gaming model, and 4) Take the place of a bit that you could otherwise purchase from GW or that could be conceived to compete with a GW-sold product.

Basically, if it's GW's intellectual property and you're duplicating it for game use it's illegal (in the United States, and in every place that has trade treaties with the United States, so basically everywhere), regardless of whether or not you're selling them.

I should be painting. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut



Alpharetta, GA

I do not support illegal recasting and selling of miniatures. That being said:

Rafi - I think one could use the 4 'factors for determining fair use' to say that recasting miniatures is legal. I don't see how your conclusion that it's illegal comes from this list of 4. It would appear that your personal opinion on the matter is used to make the jump from the 4 factors to saying it is illegal.

1) The purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit
educational purposes.

- I would make a cast for personal use. I would not resell it, give it away, show others how to do it. The act and product are 'non-profit'. I could also argue I'm casting the miniature to learn casting and using the process to educate myself. It would appear legal based on #1.

2) The nature of the copyrighted work.

- Why would you copy anything and not use it for it's intended purpose? Saying that casting a miniature and using it in a game would be illegal doesn't make sense. I'm able to make a copy of a CD or DVD and listen to it and watch it. Are you saying that I'm free to make a back-up copy of a CD but now allowed to listen to it? What am I supposed to do with the back-up, use it for a coaster?

3) The amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole.

- Again, I can copy a whole CD or DVD. What if I were to cast only Space Marine legs (as I seem to have way more torsos, arms, heads, and weapons in my bitz box)?

4) The effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

- This does not make it illegal. Say I buy 2000 points of Imperial Guard and decide that I want 2500 points worth. I don't want to buy any more but can cast some Guardsman for my own use. After the latest "price adjustment" I decide that the game is no longer worth what is being charged. I will never buy any more models. If I cast a few than GW isn't losing any of my money because I would never have purchased another model from them.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Seattle, WA, USA

Of course it's my opinion; it's the law. It's all about convincing a judge that your opinion on a law is the correct one. Heck, if you're good enough at it you don't even have to be right. Folks get all confused with fair use. The reason you're able to copy music and other recordable media is because it was determined that you've purchased the right to listen to that song when you want to so you should be able to port the song to whatever media you wish because if you've got two copies of a song it's not like you get twice as much of the song; you can only listen to one copy at a time. I suppose you could try to argue that you can make 5 copies of a space marine and only ever use one of the copies at any given time but I don't see many folks agreeing with that in a court of law. Beyond that it doesn't matter if you make 10 copies or 10 million; it's still illegal since you could purchase them from GW or from the secondary market (If I go into your house and steal something that you don't know you have did I steal it?). The only thing that changes are the penalties (which for this sort of thing would be almost nothing; that's right kids! Steal $500 from GW by IP infringement! Don't steal $10 from the 7-11!).

But hey, if you want to fight a C&D from GW, go to court, and try to convince a judge that you're legally permitted to copy GW's miniatures then more power to you. My opinion is that the judge would rule against you and would rule that copying GW's miniatures for game play does not constitute fair use, even if you already bought some.

I should be painting. 
   
Made in us
Plastictrees



Amongst the Stars, In the Night

As 2112 has explicitly pointed out, the very four factors of determining if fair use is allowed clearly shows that casting miniatures for personal use and personal use only is perfectly legal and allowable. as I've said repeatedly, personal use is just that, it *does not mean using the figures for any sort of personal gain, be they sold, traded, given away, used for advertisment or anything other than just personal use. Which *does* include gaming with them (so long as you aren't advertising a modelling/painting service while doing so).

There is no hair splitting here. Plenty of companies, even GW at one time, have shown people how to make castings of one sort or another of their products for personal use. What keeps companies from going under "if everyone did it" is that almost nobody does do it! Why? Because casting, be it metal or resin, is a time and labor intensive as well as expensive process, especially the initial set up and doubly so if you are going to do it right. Vaccuum chambers, pressure chambers, resin, RTV/latex, all these are expensive items. It's almost always far cheaper, easier and less time consuming to just go out and buy the darn things.

For example, it's perfectly legal to cast up a whole slew of bigger-ized marine torsos and legs, so long as they were for personal use only. Even still, the caster is going to be spending a considerable amount of time and it's probably just as "easy" to just convert all of the marines. On the otherhand someone could scratchbuild a few "40k sized" modern firearms and sell those castings to his hearts content.

OT Zone: A More Wretched Hive of Scum and Villany
The Loyal Slave learns to Love the Lash! 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Seattle, WA, USA

See, I'm not sure why you think that personal use is covered by the Fair Use Doctrine. If I want to build a 5000pt Savage Orc army and buy $20 worth of GW miniatures then go down to my friend's model railroad company and spin out the army it would be for personal use. But that use would directly contradict the fourth factor in the doctrine in that this use, if widespread, would harm the potential market of the original. In the words of the Supreme Court in Acuff-Rose Music, "when a commercial use amounts to mere duplication of the entirety of the original, it clearly supersedes the object of the original and serves as a market replacement for it, making it likely that cognizable market harm to the original will occur." Basically you have to ask yourself 'if everyone was doing it would GW suffer?' and the answer is yes. The reason few people do it is that the barriers to entry are quite high. Casting a few bitz here and there, using primitize (cheap!) GS molds and GW is not going to suffer even if everyone is making their own purity seals. (Well, unless the price for purity seals goes through the roof...) It's not the personal nature of the use that is the deciding factor here; it's the amount of harm done to GW.

I should be painting. 
   
Made in ca
Charging Orc Boar Boy




SW, Ontario, Canada

If GW wants to pay postage, I'll ship them a few of the sample praetorians.

The OTZone - A More Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy
doveryay, no proveryay - Russian Proverb - Trust, But Verify. 
   
 
Forum Index » News & Rumors
Go to: