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Your perception is being skewed by playing Death Guard, which is like a third of an army right now. CSM in general, especially the other three traitor legions, are doing quite well.

Arachnofiend wrote:
Your perception is being skewed by playing Death Guard, which is like a third of an army right now. CSM in general, especially the other three traitor legions, are doing quite well.

Possibly. Though in my game yesterday only 400 of the 2000pts were actually Death Guard . I used Chosen, Raptors, Rapiers, 3 Helbrutes, Bikes, sorcerer next to 3 min units of PMs to fill the troop slots. After turn two not much was left on the field.

Can you post your list and what you were up against? I don't think Death Guard should be doing that poorly. What was it in particular that was giving you issues?

Maybe he is not taking enough heavy firepower. Detachments makes it possible to skew towards heavy support or elite very easily. People can pack in a lot more heavy firepower legit into their lists these days.

Chosen (cannot hit anything turn 1), they need a rhino transport to at least get them into some kind of plasma range turn 2.

Raptors - ok. depends on their armament. can first strike

Hellbrutes - are not the best for long range firepower. If he fitted them out for balanced build or CC, then they contribute even less, if any to ranged firepower.

Bikes - good for bolters mainly. They are not a great platform points wise for heavy ranged firepower, unless you think bolters are good heavy ranged firepower.

Plague marines - same thing. Not good for any alpha first strike. They are mid ranged mainly.

Based on the mention of the units in his army list. He probably faced very shooty heavy armies and got shot off the board. In 8th edition, if you bring a "balanced" list vs a min maxed shooty list, you will get tabled very easily.

My list:
Sorcerer + Jump pack
Dark Apostle

2Helbrutes with Fist/Scourge
1 Helbrute Twin Las + Missile launcher

Raptors + 2Melta, 1Combimelta
Bikes 2Plasma, Combiplasma
Chosen: 5 Plasma, Combiplasma in Rhino
Plague Marines with 2 Flamer, Combiflamer in Rhino
2xPlague Marines with 2 Blight Launchers

3 Rapiers with Quad Heavy Bolter

He brought:
CCB
Ctan Nightbringer
2x10 warriors
Monolith
10 Lychguard
10 Flayed Ones
6Wraiths
Spider with the thing that allows him to deny the witch and repair claws
12 Scarabs

Problem one:
I couldn't kill the Monolith. He let it deep strike with the Lychguard inside, I brought it down to 2 LP with the Helbrute, Raptors and prescienced Chosen. He denied the witch on warptime so raptors didn't get in melta range. In the following round Lychguard came out and ate raptors, chosen and flamer Plague Marines.

Problem two:
The Ctan cut through the Helbrutes like nothing. Also the Necrons were pretty lucky with their 3++, the two helbrutes + Dark Apostle only killed one wraith.

Problem three:
Not enough firepower. Rapiers + blight launchers killed only two wraiths and there weren't other viable targets. Flamers + Bikes needed two rounds to kill the Flayed ones that wiped out 1 PM squad in turn 1.

The whole thing boils down to not having enough firepower. If you focused most of your firepower against the monolith (or in future an imperial knight, or a SR), and yet you fail to kill it, its alot of firepower wasted.

So you either have to ramp up more heavy firepower so that you Can kill something like a monolith in a short enough time, or you focus on killing the rest of the army and just ignore stuff like Monoliths, Storm ravens, Imperial knights and hope that that's a doable strategy. (Not always doable). In 8th edition, vehicles are harder to kill (especially some selected vehicles or titans). So, people are bringing a lot more heavy weapons to be able to handle them.

Yeah, that were my thoughts, too.
I also found my CSM to be much weaker in CC now. (Yeah I know there's Khorne Berzerkers, but they are a different army ).
When before I was able to finish off the last survivor of shooting with a charge, in this edition things seem to die only to dedicated CC units. Since Pms and Bikes dropped from 3 attacks on the charge to a measly one they lost their versatility.

You can increase the attacks of your bikes somewhat by swopping their bolt pistol for a chain sword. This increases their attack by 1.

Best is actually to equip your PM champion and your bike Champion with a killy weapon, like a power fist, or a power axe (if you are short of points). He can't single out your champion in your unit now, and your Champion has 1 more attack anyway. So, let your champion hold either a power fist or a power axe. The rest of your squad will just tank the CC hits while your champion is actually the one doing all the damage.

Yeah, so far I opted for the axe as the fist seems overly expensive to me on a platform with only two attacks.

I guess I'll have to try out Typhus and Terminators for some decent CC-action .

So looking into making a forgeworld order and doubting wether to get a leviathan or go for a renegade knight.

If you guys had to chose between

- 2x butcher array levi
- 2x shotty renegade knight

Which option do you guys think is better?

My main doubt here is that the knight still has 12 good CC attack while the levi dread is left empty handed

Well, a Leviathan costs over 300 points while that 2x shooty knight is going to cost over 500 points. So, its more of what you are willing to give up in your list for it.

Also, the bigger the points sunk into one model, the bigger the loss when said model is destroyed. Are the lists you are facing able to destroy a knight or a leviathan easily?

kaintxu wrote:
So looking into making a forgeworld order and doubting wether to get a leviathan or go for a renegade knight.

If you guys had to chose between

- 2x butcher array levi
- 2x shotty renegade knight

Which option do you guys think is better?

My main doubt here is that the knight still has 12 good CC attack while the levi dread is left empty handed

I'd vote Leviathan. Knights remain relatively mediocre in my mind, I haven't been overly impressed with any of their variants. The Leviathan with butcher arrays adds a lot more much needed firepower. I'm beginning to think that in 8th edition, units need to have a specific purpose, all-rounders seem to be at a serious disadvantage.

Leviathan question; the wording of their index page (and that of the contemptor) suggests only one of the siege claws may be exchanged for ranged weapons.
It explicity states one or both claws can become drills, but that one claw may become a big gun.

EDIT: FAQ has just been pointed out to me!

kaintxu wrote:
So looking into making a forgeworld order and doubting wether to get a leviathan or go for a renegade knight.

If you guys had to chose between

- 2x butcher array levi
- 2x shotty renegade knight

Which option do you guys think is better?

My main doubt here is that the knight still has 12 good CC attack while the levi dread is left empty handed

I'm still of the opinion that a couple (or more) Levis with Grav-Flux could be a really dangerous combo. Even just one of these guys will clean out Hordes easy: 10d3 shots vs a 20 man Gaunt unit, 14d3 shots vs a 30 man Boy unit and 22d3 shots vs a 50 man conscript unit. The range isn't great but they'd be a great support for a fast moving cc army.

To go into a little more detail into my preference for a leviathan or contemptor, people are running a lot of AT, and killing a knight in 1 turn is definitely not unheard of. The sheer number of points sitting in that knight is a pretty big liability in my mind. If something is gonna murk your leviathan, it's gonna have a pretty solid chance of killing off the knight as well.

And still talking dreadnoughts, I was thinking about getting a FW contemptor (I was going to take the osirian as I love the model) to go around with dual mele weapons.

Is he worth over lets say a DP with dual talons for CC?

kaintxu wrote:
And still talking dreadnoughts, I was thinking about getting a FW contemptor (I was going to take the osirian as I love the model) to go around with dual mele weapons.

Is he worth over lets say a DP with dual talons for CC?

I'd personally still go for the Daemon Prince: the Daemon Prince can't be targetted if it isn't the closest model, it moves further, it either has psychic abilities or becomes S8 with 9A on the charge and has an aura for re-rolls.

 mrhappyface wrote:

kaintxu wrote:
So looking into making a forgeworld order and doubting wether to get a leviathan or go for a renegade knight.

If you guys had to chose between

- 2x butcher array levi
- 2x shotty renegade knight

Which option do you guys think is better?

My main doubt here is that the knight still has 12 good CC attack while the levi dread is left empty handed

I'm still of the opinion that a couple (or more) Levis with Grav-Flux could be a really dangerous combo. Even just one of these guys will clean out Hordes easy: 10d3 shots vs a 20 man Gaunt unit, 14d3 shots vs a 30 man Boy unit and 22d3 shots vs a 50 man conscript unit. The range isn't great but they'd be a great support for a fast moving cc army.

re: the list before with 5 Leviathans, I'd still try and get dual Hellflamers on them since you don't really wan to be getting into combat and the grav-flux is only 18" range (I'm picturing going up against Tyranids here). That makes them about the same price as butcher cannon Leviathans, tough decisions but the extra points could go towards some exalted flamers or the changeling or whatever.


Both Leviathans and Knights are good. While a Knight can be taken out in one turn it does take a lot of firepower to do that. At 2000 points it's not impossible to fit a Knight and a Leviathan into the same list, I run 2 Death Guard lists at the moment, one has 3 Leviathans and the other has a Leviathan and a dakka Knight. Both lists have Typhus and 95/100 Poxwalkers. It's not really lost a game yet.

Anyone tried outrider detachment of bloat drones? Their flamer weapons are autohit and assault. So they can fly 10 inches, move assault d6, and still use their flamer weapons. They are pretty resilient too, with 10 wounds and DR.

Someone was saying nurgle herald makes them even better because it makes their flamer weapons Str 7. The issue is how to have the nurgle herald where you want it to. Probably need to summon the herald in. Personally, I think their flamer is better used against infantry and single wound types, so Str 6 or 7 makes little difference most of the time. The autohit makes it semi good against flying SR, but its just one damage each shot so you really need a lot if you want to bring down a SR with bloat drones.

I've been wanting to incorporate actual chaos space marines into my list for awhile now, and here is a useful way I'm thinking of doing it.

A Rhino filled with 5 CSMs and 5 berzekers. The CSM would be armed with plasma and combi plasma, berzerks could be outfitted with plasma pistols and/or chain axes and maybe a fist on the champion. The whole package would be in the 260 - 280 point range, so two or three of these could be easily fit in. Combine them all with a fast moving character, such as a winged prince or biker lord.

I am finishing up my Death Guard Rhino. Is ir better to go Combi-Bolter or Combi-Flamer? Why do you think so?

Thank you!

GorillaWarfare wrote:
I've been wanting to incorporate actual chaos space marines into my list for awhile now, and here is a useful way I'm thinking of doing it.

A Rhino filled with 5 CSMs and 5 berzekers. The CSM would be armed with plasma and combi plasma, berzerks could be outfitted with plasma pistols and/or chain axes and maybe a fist on the champion. The whole package would be in the 260 - 280 point range, so two or three of these could be easily fit in. Combine them all with a fast moving character, such as a winged prince or biker lord.

Here's a better way to do it. Instead of 5 normal CSM. use 5 havocs instead. Now you can have 4 havocs all armed with plasma, champion with combi plasma. Everytime you want to use normal CSM, see if you can just replace with havocs instead. Have a spearhead detachment and you can bring 5 units of heavy support. Not enough? have two spearhead detachments! lol There is little reason to bring normal CSM since havocs are just as cheap and have far better weapon options.

I still wonder about the viability of a "choppy" CSM unit. I don't think Havocs can replace their bolters with chainswords. Maybe a 10-man unit of CSM with 2 Meltaguns and chainswords on the whole unit, riding in a Rhino, could do some work. I dunno, Havocs might still be better since you can take more special weapons. The "choppy" CSM might have a niche use if you either don't have the points for Berzerkers or you aren't running World Eaters and want to fill out a Battalion detachment rather than a Spearhead (3 CP vs. 1 CP). I'm just spitballing here, maybe I just want normal CSM to work too much to see sense. Maybe we should wait for the CSM codex before trying to make basic CSM work.

Nope, a normal CSM squad isn't very choppy at all. Other than if you equip a powerfist on the champion (and that's just two attacks). The rest won't do much because of lower number of attacks, and their weapons have no rend.

Chosen can at least equip 4 special melee weapons and berserkers of course are really choppy with the whole squad being able to equip chain axes and their attack twice feature. I don't think there is any way you can raise the choppiness of a normal CSM squad to that of a berserker squad. (And you shouldn't be able to.)

Well the space marine strategems and chapter tactics are very good. Hopefully the chaos ones will be equally good (hahaha) which will justify taking chaos marines.

But people would probably end up taking cultists anyway

Actually, between normal CSM vs cultists as a troop choice, I think basic CSM is better because they have a much better save. Cultists die so easily even to normal bolter fire.

The issue is why even take troop choices if you can just use cult troops or elites or havocs instead. I know they are bringing back objective secured, but these days, a lot of games are over by turn 4. So, objective secured kinda matters a lot less now.

Thinking more about bloat drones. They form a decent screen for flying Daemon princes. They are one of the few units that can keep up relatively well because they are flying although they are fly 10 compared to DP's fly 12. (but its just 2 inches less).

I have a 10-man regular CSM unit with 2 plasma guns painted and ready to play... but I have a hard time getting space for them on any of my lists. To be honest I only bring them to the table because they are painted and most of my army is not. Berserkers are way better if you want to go full CC, Havocs are way better because of their equipment options, and cultists are way better as a troop choice if you want to fill a Batallion detachment and gain those 3 CP - sure their save and Leadership suck but you only want them to screen your characters and take objectives if they get to survive by any chance.

The only hope I see for them is GW's strategy to sell new models. The regular CSM box has been out for a while now, maybe they seize the opportunity to make them somehow better on the new Codex as an excuse to sell new models. Actually, what do you guys think GW is going to release along the Chaos Codex? I see new Berserkers and Emperor's Children boxes and characters since TS and DG have flashy new models. New Havocs would be really cool too and... Chaos Primaris?

Eldenfirefly wrote:
The issue is why even take troop choices if you can just use cult troops or elites or havocs instead. I know they are bringing back objective secured, but these days, a lot of games are over by turn 4. So, objective secured kinda matters a lot less now.

With ITC getting progressive missions back, objective secured matters even more now actually. Space Marine troops will have a huge advantage over other objective holders and now MUST be removed from objectives.

So I'm wracking my brains trying to think of a reason to put Troops into my list. I'm looking at the Battalion formation and licking my lips at those 3 CP's (and looking to toss all the fun stuff into other detachments for even more CP's) but I'm looking at chaos troop choices and shaking my head, My army is AL so demon troops are right out for me. I'm going cultist/reneguard heavy but the R&H troops choices suck balls. none of the chaos troops are attractive at all - marines are pants, cultists have weak options and militia/mutants are just a formation tax. I liked the old Bloody-Handed Reaver rule that made reneguard actual GEQ's but this has now gone the way of the Dodo.

I'm looking at Disciples to fill out my ranks instead of troops. For a reasonable price you get budget scions. They're barely more expensive than the significantly worse troop choices available. Is it worth dropping 2 CP's from a list to replace the crappy troop options with solid elite/HS options instead? I'm thinking of spamming MSU Disciple Command squads, with HB/plasmagun and chucking 3 squads in a transport (Valkyries if I can afford them or Chimera otherwise).

I'd be happy taking troops and maxing out CP's if any units were worth a damn but sadly they're not, unless the upcoming codex (or a much need re-write of the R&H list) fixes things. I'm anticipating having infiltrating marines and cultists for AL and that might change things but if we don't get those rules (you never know with GW) I'm left with wondering if 2 more CP's are really worth a huge drop in army efficiency?

No, they're not. What good are strategems or rerolls if your troops aren't effective enough to benefit from them?