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Well, hopefully that is a big step forward in solving the political nuclear problem that NK presents.
Assassinations?
Cross border kidnappings?
Sinking of SK ships?
Bombardment of SK island?
Firing missiles over Japan?
Need I go on?
Is that terrorism, or the acts of war? NK is still at war AFAIK.
If it's not a non-state actor perpetrated on a civilian target, it ain't quote unquote "Terror".
We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
Are the North Koreans fit enough to fight for more than 5 minutes though?
There was that article a few days ago about that North Korean defector, a soldier, and his intestines were riddled with large parasites
If that's the general state of your average North Korean infantryman, then I don't think the US military has much to worry about.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
There was that article a few days ago about that North Korean defector, a soldier, and his intestines were riddled with large parasites
If that's the general state of your average North Korean infantryman, then I don't think the US military has much to worry about.
True. They where the hardly in good shape if he was a example. And the army is meant to the pick of rations etc. Being a border guard too.Better supplied?
What state the units who not pick of the system might be in, or worse civilians.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
There was that article a few days ago about that North Korean defector, a soldier, and his intestines were riddled with large parasites
If that's the general state of your average North Korean infantryman, then I don't think the US military has much to worry about.
True. They where the hardly in good shape if he was a example. And the army is meant to the pick of rations etc. Being a border guard too.Better supplied?
What state the units who not pick of the system might be in, or worse civilians.
I'm surprised nobody else has done this, so I'll post a link.
I remember one military expert saying that the reason why they don't like US/South Korean exercises (which privately the NK generals accept as making total sense from a military perspective) is that the North Koreans have to reply in kind, and it costs them valuable ammunition and food.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/20 21:33:16
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
There was that article a few days ago about that North Korean defector, a soldier, and his intestines were riddled with large parasites
If that's the general state of your average North Korean infantryman, then I don't think the US military has much to worry about.
True. They where the hardly in good shape if he was a example. And the army is meant to the pick of rations etc. Being a border guard too.Better supplied?
What state the units who not pick of the system might be in, or worse civilians.
I'm surprised nobody else has done this, so I'll post a link.
I remember one military expert saying that the reason why they don't like US/South Korean exercises (which privately the NK generals accept as making total sense from a military perspective) is that the North Koreans have to reply in kind, and it costs them valuable ammunition and food.
That makes sense. They have limited resources and fuel.
America can burn ships fuel, aircraft kerosene by the ton and just replace it.
North Korea... No. They still have wood powered trucks.
They often used when... You Don, t have ernough oil.
It was same in ww2
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
There was that article a few days ago about that North Korean defector, a soldier, and his intestines were riddled with large parasites
If that's the general state of your average North Korean infantryman, then I don't think the US military has much to worry about.
The North Koreans have never really been in much of a position to fight, health concerns or no. Even during the Korean war, without maddive Chinese assistance they never would have survived. The same is true today, the NK army is no match for its adversaries, never has been, never will be.
Rather, the threat has always been that can can wreak great devastation onto South Korea in a very short time. When you have thousands of artillery pieces able to rain shells onto Seoul and its suburbs, it doesn't matter that your soldiers arent healthy, nobody is going to want to deal with that. Their entire defense strategy is basically to hold South Korea hostage, hoping nobody ever calls their bluff, because once that goes off, they're done.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
There was that article a few days ago about that North Korean defector, a soldier, and his intestines were riddled with large parasites
If that's the general state of your average North Korean infantryman, then I don't think the US military has much to worry about.
The North Koreans have never really been in much of a position to fight, health concerns or no. Even during the Korean war, without maddive Chinese assistance they never would have survived. The same is true today, the NK army is no match for its adversaries, never has been, never will be.
Rather, the threat has always been that can can wreak great devastation onto South Korea in a very short time. When you have thousands of artillery pieces able to rain shells onto Seoul and its suburbs, it doesn't matter that your soldiers arent healthy, nobody is going to want to deal with that. Their entire defense strategy is basically to hold South Korea hostage, hoping nobody ever calls their bluff, because once that goes off, they're done.
I don't disagree with this analysis, but if their average infantryman isn't up to the job, then is it not possible that their much vaunted mass artillery might be lacking as well?
Their guns might be old school, Cold War artillery, that's in dire need of maintenance, and therefore, not as effective as they should be.
Plus, US and South Korean military intelligence have to have some idea about where these guns are sited, what state they're in, and presumably, the US Air Force and Navy will have plans drawn up to take them out within minutes of war being declared...
Edit. I was watching Battle of The Bulge earlier, so my faith in US military intelligence is not 100%
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
There was that article a few days ago about that North Korean defector, a soldier, and his intestines were riddled with large parasites
If that's the general state of your average North Korean infantryman, then I don't think the US military has much to worry about.
The North Koreans have never really been in much of a position to fight, health concerns or no. Even during the Korean war, without maddive Chinese assistance they never would have survived. The same is true today, the NK army is no match for its adversaries, never has been, never will be.
Rather, the threat has always been that can can wreak great devastation onto South Korea in a very short time. When you have thousands of artillery pieces able to rain shells onto Seoul and its suburbs, it doesn't matter that your soldiers arent healthy, nobody is going to want to deal with that. Their entire defense strategy is basically to hold South Korea hostage, hoping nobody ever calls their bluff, because once that goes off, they're done.
I don't disagree with this analysis, but if their average infantryman isn't up to the job, then is it not possible that their much vaunted mass artillery might be lacking as well?
Their guns might be old school, Cold War artillery, that's in dire need of maintenance, and therefore, not as effective as they should be.
Plus, US and South Korean military intelligence have to have some idea about where these guns are sited, what state they're in, and presumably, the US Air Force and Navy will have plans drawn up to take them out within minutes of war being declared...
Edit. I was watching Battle of The Bulge earlier, so my faith in US military intelligence is not 100%
There are a gak ton of heavy guns though.
And we'll dug in. Even if they not accurate and some blow up or fail.
They could still do alot of damage in the time it takes them to scramble and attack the many hundreds of heavily armoured gun posts.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
Wel theres this. China probbly would not like it looking like they had no security and NK could do whatever though.
tried to kill a family member in China they claimed.
After his brother it seems believable.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/20 22:38:39
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
Nothing you listed involved NK sponsoring a terror group. NK isn't a state sponsor of terror. If you have any doubt about this, ask yourself why the Trump administration has labelled NK a state sponsor of terror - it is so they can enforce tighter sanctions on NK. This power exists so a country can pressure a nation in to abandoning its support for terrorism. But no-one at any point has even pretended that the US is trying to get NK to stop sponsoring any terror cells, because NK isn't sponsoring any terror cells.
No, it is so that tighter sanctions can bring NK to the negotiating table, to get them to give up their nuclear program. Nothing wrong with weakening NK to bring to the table, and prevent them building their nukes. But supporting that doesn't mean we should pretend it's really about terorrism.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/21 02:34:15
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
Nothing you listed involved NK sponsoring a terror group. NK isn't a state sponsor of terror. If you have any doubt about this, ask yourself why the Trump administration has labelled NK a state sponsor of terror - it is so they can enforce tighter sanctions on NK. This power exists so a country can pressure a nation in to abandoning its support for terrorism. But no-one at any point has even pretended that the US is trying to get NK to stop sponsoring any terror cells, because NK isn't sponsoring any terror cells.
No, it is so that tighter sanctions can bring NK to the negotiating table, to get them to give up their nuclear program. Nothing wrong with weakening NK to bring to the table, and prevent them building their nukes. But supporting that doesn't mean we should pretend it's really about terorrism.
Huh?
The assassination of Kim Jong-nam with fething VX nerve gas in fething Malaysia... THAT had clear terror motives. Both towards their ex-pat and other nations.
You seem to getting stuck on the whole "who NK sponsering?" and forgetting that NK used to be on this list.
You're getting into the weeds of things... all this does, is to put NK back on that US Treasure Department terror list that simply enables further banking sanctions.
whembly wrote: The assassination of Kim Jong-nam with fething VX nerve gas in fething Malaysia... THAT had clear terror motives. Both towards their ex-pat and other nations.
It was a criminal act by a criminal government, and one that deserves sanctions. But that doesn't mean NK is sponsoring terror cells, which is the charge here, that you've tried to pretend is true.
You seem to getting stuck on the whole "who NK sponsering?" and forgetting that NK used to be on this list.
I'm not forgetting one fething thing. NK was on that list for the same reason this is happening - because it's a way to increase sanctions in order to force NK to the table to give up their nuclear program. And as I already said, there's nothing inherently wrong with that, but supporting measures to force NK back to the table are totally different to pretending the justification behind it is actually true.
We can accept the realpolitik as worthy, without having to pretend the fiction used to get us there is valid. We can accept Santa Claus and his elves are watching is a good way to get kids to make their beds and clean their teeth, without having to pretend that Santa and his elves really are watching every kid all the time.
You're getting into the weeds of things... all this does, is to put NK back on that US Treasure Department terror list that simply enables further banking sanctions.
I literally just fething wrote that. You quoted me fething writing that;
"it is so they can enforce tighter sanctions on NK"
"it is so that tighter sanctions can bring NK to the negotiating table, to get them to give up their nuclear program"
feth.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
There was that article a few days ago about that North Korean defector, a soldier, and his intestines were riddled with large parasites
If that's the general state of your average North Korean infantryman, then I don't think the US military has much to worry about.
The North Koreans have never really been in much of a position to fight, health concerns or no. Even during the Korean war, without maddive Chinese assistance they never would have survived. The same is true today, the NK army is no match for its adversaries, never has been, never will be.
Rather, the threat has always been that can can wreak great devastation onto South Korea in a very short time. When you have thousands of artillery pieces able to rain shells onto Seoul and its suburbs, it doesn't matter that your soldiers arent healthy, nobody is going to want to deal with that. Their entire defense strategy is basically to hold South Korea hostage, hoping nobody ever calls their bluff, because once that goes off, they're done.
I don't disagree with this analysis, but if their average infantryman isn't up to the job, then is it not possible that their much vaunted mass artillery might be lacking as well?
Their guns might be old school, Cold War artillery, that's in dire need of maintenance, and therefore, not as effective as they should be.
Plus, US and South Korean military intelligence have to have some idea about where these guns are sited, what state they're in, and presumably, the US Air Force and Navy will have plans drawn up to take them out within minutes of war being declared...
Edit. I was watching Battle of The Bulge earlier, so my faith in US military intelligence is not 100%
There are a gak ton of heavy guns though.
And we'll dug in. Even if they not accurate and some blow up or fail.
They could still do alot of damage in the time it takes them to scramble and attack the many hundreds of heavily armoured gun posts.
These days you have firefinder radar and GPS-guided counter-battery artillery, it shouldn't come down to squaddies storming gun posts...
There was that article a few days ago about that North Korean defector, a soldier, and his intestines were riddled with large parasites
If that's the general state of your average North Korean infantryman, then I don't think the US military has much to worry about.
He stole a jeep, managed to sneak across the most heavily guarded border in the world while getting shot 5 times and survived, while suffering from parasites and malnutrition and all that. If that is the general state of your average North Korean soldier, then I am quite worried for the US. That guy is really though. Harsh living conditions create great soldiers. And what does it matter whether a truck drives on wood or on diesel? They will do their job in both cases. And rusty howitzer may be rusty, but it is still lethal. Never underestimate an opponent just because his equipment isn't cutting-edge. He still might be able to do a lot of damage. Especially since a lot of North-Korean equipment is Soviet-made, and Soviet stuff is well known for being able to function even after a lot of abuse and lack of maintenance. That is how it was designed.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/11/21 11:23:37
Well, hopefully that is a big step forward in solving the political nuclear problem that NK presents.
Assassinations?
Cross border kidnappings?
Sinking of SK ships?
Bombardment of SK island?
Firing missiles over Japan?
Need I go on?
What terrorist group is actually doing all of this, and how is North Korea sponsoring them?
?
NK government?
So there is no terrorist group?
Where is the definition that states a government is incapable of being a terrorist group? We've kind of been in a state of armed conflict with one such being for the last 16 years.
Where is the definition that states a government can be a terrorist group? Neither of these definitions exists in international law.
The default status of governments is governments. When a government does things like bombing people, assassinations and the like, these are warfare within or outwith the Geneva Code, or else technically illegal actions. For instance, the French Government sank a Greenpeace ship in New Zealand. That does not make the French Government a terrorist organisation. When the government breaks down, as in the Franco-Prussian War of 1870, it is the legal right of the people to take up arms and defend themselves against invaders. This does not make the people a terrorist organisation.
The above is why we talk about state-sponsored terrorism. It defines the situation in which an active government sponsors a terrorist organisation such as the Contras in Nicaragua.
Loathsome though the NK government is, they are not sponsoring those kind of activities.
Which is why Somalian divisions are sweeping the globe, taking all before them. Seriously, this thing about how really harsh living conditions make the best soldiers is nonsense. Point to the richest countries, with the best fed, best educated population, and that's where you'll find the best quality troops.
And what does it matter whether a truck drives on wood or on diesel? They will do their job in both cases. And rusty howitzer may be rusty, but it is still lethal. Never underestimate an opponent just because his equipment isn't cutting-edge. He still might be able to do a lot of damage. Especially since a lot of North-Korean equipment is Soviet-made, and Soviet stuff is well known for being able to function even after a lot of abuse and lack of maintenance. That is how it was designed.
The wood truck doesn't do its job anywhere near as well, how could you even claim that? Why do you think there are no woodgas vehicles in places with access to ample supplies of petrol and diesel? Fashion? It's because it's not as good.
Such vehicles are fine for maintaining the bare minimum trade activity that goes on within NK's borders, but if they were relied on supply a sustained war effort they'd be at breaking point almost straight aways, even without attacks by allied air forces.
And while sticking up for North Korean kit is admirably loyal to your motherland that supplied the stuff, I guess, it's also a bit silly. Because 50 year old Soviet military surplus can not actually compete with 21st century cutting edge hardware. That's a sentence I actually had to type out.
What would be a challenge for the US and allies would be trying to locate that many NK firing positions, and taking them out before NK was able to inflict extensive casualties on civilian centres in SK. But that's a product of the tactical environment and the wildly varying objectives of the two sides, it is not a product of their kit having anything near parity.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
Where is the definition that states a government is incapable of being a terrorist group?
I think the majority of people consider non-state actors to be the primary agents of terrorism, such as ISIS, AQ, IRA, etc vs state actors such as members of the regular armed forces. Something like Hezbollah vs the Iranian Army. I think US laws lets us claim that secret agents are "terrorists" if a government is acting in secret, and I guess that's how we are probably justifying the various inclusions of North Korea into the list of "State Sponsors of Terrorism". But even if we accept that a government can be a terrorist group, it's still stupid to include NK because they are not sponsoring anybody.
Iran is a state sponsor because they provide funding and training to Hezbollah. North Korea is not sponsoring a group of terrorists, North Korea is the one doing the actual stuff.
Edit: Now, I'm not saying that North Korea are good people or anything like that. Just saying that it seems silly to include them on this list. To me it feels like watching someone punch someone in the face, then charging the person that punched with "hiring someone else to punch someone for you".
We've kind of been in a state of armed conflict with one such being for the last 16 years.
We've been at war with the Country of AQ? I thought AQ and the likes not being a government and/or country is how we've been able to get away with not caring about the Geneva Convention?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/21 14:16:03
There was that article a few days ago about that North Korean defector, a soldier, and his intestines were riddled with large parasites
If that's the general state of your average North Korean infantryman, then I don't think the US military has much to worry about.
He stole a jeep, managed to sneak across the most heavily guarded border in the world while getting shot 5 times and survived, while suffering from parasites and malnutrition and all that. If that is the general state of your average North Korean soldier, then I am quite worried for the US. That guy is really though. Harsh living conditions create great soldiers.
And what does it matter whether a truck drives on wood or on diesel? They will do their job in both cases. And rusty howitzer may be rusty, but it is still lethal. Never underestimate an opponent just because his equipment isn't cutting-edge. He still might be able to do a lot of damage. Especially since a lot of North-Korean equipment is Soviet-made, and Soviet stuff is well known for being able to function even after a lot of abuse and lack of maintenance. That is how it was designed.
He was escaping from one of the most oppressive regimes on Earth. Of course he was going to take 5 or 6 bullets to the chest if need be. He had nothing to lose, and everything to gain.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
There was that article a few days ago about that North Korean defector, a soldier, and his intestines were riddled with large parasites
If that's the general state of your average North Korean infantryman, then I don't think the US military has much to worry about.
He stole a jeep, managed to sneak across the most heavily guarded border in the world while getting shot 5 times and survived, while suffering from parasites and malnutrition and all that. If that is the general state of your average North Korean soldier, then I am quite worried for the US. That guy is really though. Harsh living conditions create great soldiers.
And what does it matter whether a truck drives on wood or on diesel? They will do their job in both cases. And rusty howitzer may be rusty, but it is still lethal. Never underestimate an opponent just because his equipment isn't cutting-edge. He still might be able to do a lot of damage. Especially since a lot of North-Korean equipment is Soviet-made, and Soviet stuff is well known for being able to function even after a lot of abuse and lack of maintenance. That is how it was designed.
Hrm, harsh living conditions dont necessarily create great soldiers. I doubt such a North Korean soldier could carry as heavy of a kit for as great a distance at as great a speed as their South Korean or US counterparts. Their immune systems would be compromised and more susceptible to disease reducing fighting strength and increasing the strain on logistics. There's a reason armies dont starve their troops and infect them with parasites, it really doesnt make them tougher.
One will notice the Japanese army of WW2 was treated to similar conditions, and was thoroughly brutalized by both the US military and the Red Army, where even the most horrific of combats were painfully one-sided affairs after the initial 100 days successes.
Adversity has its place in training. Long term chronic health problems do not.
Though yes, underestimating opponents is never a good idea. But acknowledging the realities should also be something to be kept in mind.
There was that article a few days ago about that North Korean defector, a soldier, and his intestines were riddled with large parasites
If that's the general state of your average North Korean infantryman, then I don't think the US military has much to worry about.
The North Koreans have never really been in much of a position to fight, health concerns or no. Even during the Korean war, without maddive Chinese assistance they never would have survived. The same is true today, the NK army is no match for its adversaries, never has been, never will be.
Rather, the threat has always been that can can wreak great devastation onto South Korea in a very short time. When you have thousands of artillery pieces able to rain shells onto Seoul and its suburbs, it doesn't matter that your soldiers arent healthy, nobody is going to want to deal with that. Their entire defense strategy is basically to hold South Korea hostage, hoping nobody ever calls their bluff, because once that goes off, they're done.
I don't disagree with this analysis, but if their average infantryman isn't up to the job, then is it not possible that their much vaunted mass artillery might be lacking as well?
Their guns might be old school, Cold War artillery, that's in dire need of maintenance, and therefore, not as effective as they should be.
Plus, US and South Korean military intelligence have to have some idea about where these guns are sited, what state they're in, and presumably, the US Air Force and Navy will have plans drawn up to take them out within minutes of war being declared...
Edit. I was watching Battle of The Bulge earlier, so my faith in US military intelligence is not 100%
The artillery would almost certainly be destroyed in short order, and I'm sure many of the guns are either inoperable or unable to be used for one reason or another. But if even only a fraction are useable, thats still going to be more guns than at Verdun or the Somme, they could still inflict tens of thousands of casualties in a couple of days and put millions to flight and destroy potentially tens of billions of dollars of property in a couple of days. I doubt NK would be able to maintain offensive operations much longer than that, maybe a week at tops, but thats enough to do a lot of damage unfortunately.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
As well, while the North Korean artillery might be outdated by today's standards they're still a good 40 or 50 years more advanced than the ones at the Somme, as well.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
Which is why Somalian divisions are sweeping the globe, taking all before them. Seriously, this thing about how really harsh living conditions make the best soldiers is nonsense. Point to the richest countries, with the best fed, best educated population, and that's where you'll find the best quality troops.
They might have if they had many times the numbers they have, and had the weapons needed for waging modern war such as missiles, tanks and aircraft. It isn't being well-fed that makes the soldiers of richer countries better, it is being more numerous and having advanced weapons.
A soldier that grew up in a harsh environment will be more accustomed to hardships, hard labour, surviving on little food and surviving in difficult environments. Not to mention being more likely to come in contact with diseases and therefore having better resistances. But yeah, there is a tipping point. If conditions are so harsh people are basically starving, then people just get weakened instead of strengthened. But an appropriate amount of harshness makes people stronger. We see this all the time both in history and in the present day.
And what does it matter whether a truck drives on wood or on diesel? They will do their job in both cases. And rusty howitzer may be rusty, but it is still lethal. Never underestimate an opponent just because his equipment isn't cutting-edge. He still might be able to do a lot of damage. Especially since a lot of North-Korean equipment is Soviet-made, and Soviet stuff is well known for being able to function even after a lot of abuse and lack of maintenance. That is how it was designed.
The wood truck doesn't do its job anywhere near as well, how could you even claim that? Why do you think there are no woodgas vehicles in places with access to ample supplies of petrol and diesel? Fashion? It's because it's not as good.
Such vehicles are fine for maintaining the bare minimum trade activity that goes on within NK's borders, but if they were relied on supply a sustained war effort they'd be at breaking point almost straight aways, even without attacks by allied air forces.
I didn't claim that! Obviously a diesel truck doesn't perform as well as a wood truck. But both can get their job well enough that using one or the other isn't going to make a major difference. A truck is still a truck, no matter what it runs on. Wood trucks are sometimes used in Russia as well (especially in remote areas) and you don't really notice much of a difference with normal trucks.
The biggest disadvantages to wood gas is that the gasifier is really huge and heavy and takes up a lot of space and that the gasifier needs to run for a bit before you can go. Also, early wood gasifiers weren't efficient at all and needed constant attention to keep running. These things are why oil-based fuels have won out over gas-based fuels in general usage.
But in a long war, wood gas actually beats out diesel or other fuels eventually in terms of efficiency simply for the fact you are going to be running out of oil long before you are going to be running out of wood. That is why wood gasifiers suddenly became quite popular in WW2. Not that a war with North Korea would be a long war (unless China gets involved), but still.
And you are right that North Korea's truck capacity would be stretched to breaking point, but that is probably more due to them having relatively few trucks and trucks being targeted by US air strikes. Not so much due to the fact that some of their trucks run on wood gas.
sebster wrote: And while sticking up for North Korean kit is admirably loyal to your motherland that supplied the stuff, I guess, it's also a bit silly. Because 50 year old Soviet military surplus can not actually compete with 21st century cutting edge hardware. That's a sentence I actually had to type out.
I didn't say it could compete. It can not. It is 50 years old. It is not for nothing that the Soviet Union and Russia have always been constantly updating their weapon systems and designing new ones.
What I did say, is that those 50 year old guns and howitzers are still lethal. And that they can still do a lot more damage to a city like Seoul than anybody would like (well, except for the North Koreans I guess). Don't underestimate something simply because it is old. The difference in performance between a D20 howitzer and say, a M109 howitzer isn't all that big. Enough to want to upgrade if you can, but not enough to make the old gun suddenly not dangerous anymore. Especially when you are shooting at a target you can hardly miss.
sebster wrote: What would be a challenge for the US and allies would be trying to locate that many NK firing positions, and taking them out before NK was able to inflict extensive casualties on civilian centres in SK. But that's a product of the tactical environment and the wildly varying objectives of the two sides, it is not a product of their kit having anything near parity.
Agreed. But they do not need parity. They just need to do be able to inflict enough damage to make an attack on them too costly, and for that old weapons will do just fine.
I don't disagree with this analysis, but if their average infantryman isn't up to the job, then is it not possible that their much vaunted mass artillery might be lacking as well?
You don't need to be super physically fit to fire artillery. Their artillery is old, but old in this case means post WW2. And really all artillery advances since then have been almost all in the accuracy department. The guns themselves and the ammunition has not really changed much. US artillery rounds and North Korean rounds would be much the same as each other. The difference is we can put a 155mm shell within 10m of a target while North Korea might manage something worse. But that only matters with precision shooting, which is what the US has been focusing on for most of the last 50 years.
North Korea really just cares about a massive area bombardment, and for that their artillery is more than sufficient. The only real question is how much ammunition they have to sustain the bombardment. Even with scant resources, they've had 60 years to build up stockpiles.
A 60 year old 155mm Artillery piece is just as good for area bombardment as a modern 155mm artillery piece would be, assuming its been maintained correctly. Accuracy is not a concern. Plus, if you've had decades to zero in on a specific target you could match the accuracy of even a modern piece. The modern piece just zeros in on a new target faster, its not any more damaging once you get rounds on target.
Really what happens in the event hostilities break out again is the following.
North Korean artillery utterly devastates everything in range. Seoul gets pretty much leveled. Millions are dead from conventional and gas rounds. US air strikes neutralize the artillery quickly, but not in time to save the civilian population from getting devastated. The South Korean and US troops advance over the border and they will manage to roll over North Korean opposition due to the poor condition of their opponents. They'll be dug in bunkers, but they will run out of ammunition and food quite rapidly. It would likely be a slow process as drawing the battle out is to the US/South Korea's advantage as we can easily make sure North Korea cannot resupply their frontline with anything, and we can eliminate their artillery eventually with air/missile strikes. All North Korea will be able to do is kill civilians as they eventually starve to death.
This is discounting any Nuclear option North Korea uses. Any attempt to drop a bomb via aircraft would end in failure as anything that flies would get shot down immediately. While they likely do have a couple, as in 1 or 2, ICBMs with nuclear bombs, their options with that are limited. If they shoot at a South Korean target, they might actually be able to hit it. But aside from just raising the casualty rate for South Korea and the US, it wouldn't buy them anything as the US would simply flatten Pyongyang with a nuke in retaliation.
Either way, North Korea loses. But millions of South Koreans are killed. North Korea also likely sees most of its population die due to starvation and combat.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/11/21 18:18:05
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
whembly wrote: The assassination of Kim Jong-nam with fething VX nerve gas in fething Malaysia... THAT had clear terror motives. Both towards their ex-pat and other nations.
It was a criminal act by a criminal government, and one that deserves sanctions. But that doesn't mean NK is sponsoring terror cells, which is the charge here, that you've tried to pretend is true.
You seem to getting stuck on the whole "who NK sponsering?" and forgetting that NK used to be on this list.
I'm not forgetting one fething thing. NK was on that list for the same reason this is happening - because it's a way to increase sanctions in order to force NK to the table to give up their nuclear program. And as I already said, there's nothing inherently wrong with that, but supporting measures to force NK back to the table are totally different to pretending the justification behind it is actually true.
How is this, in any way different than what I described up thread?
We can accept the realpolitik as worthy, without having to pretend the fiction used to get us there is valid. We can accept Santa Claus and his elves are watching is a good way to get kids to make their beds and clean their teeth, without having to pretend that Santa and his elves really are watching every kid all the time.
If you think it's fiction now... was it fiction when they were on this list in the first place? IF the answer is yes, then your point stands. But, they were originally put on this list for a reason and dubya removed it in the hopes to garner some cooperation.
You're getting into the weeds of things... all this does, is to put NK back on that US Treasure Department terror list that simply enables further banking sanctions.
I literally just fething wrote that. You quoted me fething writing that;
"it is so they can enforce tighter sanctions on NK"
"it is so that tighter sanctions can bring NK to the negotiating table, to get them to give up their nuclear program"
feth.
[MOD EDIT - Rule 1 - Alpharius]
I think we're mostly in agreement with each other.
The divergence it seems is this nomenclature of the US Treasury's program called "State Sponsor of Terrorism™". Furthermore, it's accepted fact that the NK are working with other unsavory countries (ie, Iran) to advance their nuclear ambitions that easily fit this program's definition. Frankly, since we're at war with NK I find this objection of labeling a country that we're at war with as a sponser of terror, a US definition mind you, as somehow a dumb thing to do when all it really does is activate sanction measures that are already on the books in the US.
Now as to whether or not its good realpolitik... that remains to be seen.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/21 19:56:03
Which is why Somalian divisions are sweeping the globe, taking all before them. Seriously, this thing about how really harsh living conditions make the best soldiers is nonsense. Point to the richest countries, with the best fed, best educated population, and that's where you'll find the best quality troops.
They might have if they had many times the numbers they have, and had the weapons needed for waging modern war such as missiles, tanks and aircraft. It isn't being well-fed that makes the soldiers of richer countries better, it is being more numerous and having advanced weapons.
A soldier that grew up in a harsh environment will be more accustomed to hardships, hard labour, surviving on little food and surviving in difficult environments. Not to mention being more likely to come in contact with diseases and therefore having better resistances. But yeah, there is a tipping point. If conditions are so harsh people are basically starving, then people just get weakened instead of strengthened. But an appropriate amount of harshness makes people stronger. We see this all the time both in history and in the present day.
And what does it matter whether a truck drives on wood or on diesel? They will do their job in both cases. And rusty howitzer may be rusty, but it is still lethal. Never underestimate an opponent just because his equipment isn't cutting-edge. He still might be able to do a lot of damage. Especially since a lot of North-Korean equipment is Soviet-made, and Soviet stuff is well known for being able to function even after a lot of abuse and lack of maintenance. That is how it was designed.
The wood truck doesn't do its job anywhere near as well, how could you even claim that? Why do you think there are no woodgas vehicles in places with access to ample supplies of petrol and diesel? Fashion? It's because it's not as good.
Such vehicles are fine for maintaining the bare minimum trade activity that goes on within NK's borders, but if they were relied on supply a sustained war effort they'd be at breaking point almost straight aways, even without attacks by allied air forces.
I didn't claim that! Obviously a diesel truck doesn't perform as well as a wood truck. But both can get their job well enough that using one or the other isn't going to make a major difference. A truck is still a truck, no matter what it runs on. Wood trucks are sometimes used in Russia as well (especially in remote areas) and you don't really notice much of a difference with normal trucks.
The biggest disadvantages to wood gas is that the gasifier is really huge and heavy and takes up a lot of space and that the gasifier needs to run for a bit before you can go. Also, early wood gasifiers weren't efficient at all and needed constant attention to keep running. These things are why oil-based fuels have won out over gas-based fuels in general usage.
But in a long war, wood gas actually beats out diesel or other fuels eventually in terms of efficiency simply for the fact you are going to be running out of oil long before you are going to be running out of wood. That is why wood gasifiers suddenly became quite popular in WW2. Not that a war with North Korea would be a long war (unless China gets involved), but still.
And you are right that North Korea's truck capacity would be stretched to breaking point, but that is probably more due to them having relatively few trucks and trucks being targeted by US air strikes. Not so much due to the fact that some of their trucks run on wood gas.
sebster wrote: And while sticking up for North Korean kit is admirably loyal to your motherland that supplied the stuff, I guess, it's also a bit silly. Because 50 year old Soviet military surplus can not actually compete with 21st century cutting edge hardware. That's a sentence I actually had to type out.
I didn't say it could compete. It can not. It is 50 years old. It is not for nothing that the Soviet Union and Russia have always been constantly updating their weapon systems and designing new ones.
What I did say, is that those 50 year old guns and howitzers are still lethal. And that they can still do a lot more damage to a city like Seoul than anybody would like (well, except for the North Koreans I guess). Don't underestimate something simply because it is old. The difference in performance between a D20 howitzer and say, a M109 howitzer isn't all that big. Enough to want to upgrade if you can, but not enough to make the old gun suddenly not dangerous anymore. Especially when you are shooting at a target you can hardly miss.
sebster wrote: What would be a challenge for the US and allies would be trying to locate that many NK firing positions, and taking them out before NK was able to inflict extensive casualties on civilian centres in SK. But that's a product of the tactical environment and the wildly varying objectives of the two sides, it is not a product of their kit having anything near parity.
Agreed. But they do not need parity. They just need to do be able to inflict enough damage to make an attack on them too costly, and for that old weapons will do just fine.
There is some degree of merit in both sides of the argument. For example, Turkish UK troops endured the tough conditions of the Koren War much better than the "soft" US garrison troops that started in the conflict. The US Marines, though, also had a much higher toughness in actions such as winter retreat from the Chosun Reservoir. There definitely is some kind of influence of toughness from upbringing and training, but it can be taken too far. The average North Korean is several inches shorter than his South Korean counterpart, thanks to the effects of the major famine in the 1990s.
That said, modern high-tech western armies tend to replace men with machines. The North Korean army is a very large army. They even have universal conscription for women since 2015! Unfortunately, the ability to pack more men into a given area often is merely a way of packing more targets into the area of effect of area effect weapons such as artillery barrage, napalm, heavy machine-gun fire, and the like.
There is some degree of merit in both sides of the argument. For example, Turkish UK troops endured the tough conditions of the Koren War much better than the "soft" US garrison troops that started in the conflict. The US Marines, though, also had a much higher toughness in actions such as winter retreat from the Chosun Reservoir.
We can't even agree on toughness within the US armed forces, let alone any foreign forces!
