How are Grey Knights Cheese?

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**daedalus**

Oh God, really guys?

We've had a (Grey Knights/Matt Ward) (are/aren't/might be) (overpowered/underpowered/cheese/the suck/waffles) thread on average every other week since the damn Codex was released. So far every last thread has been a repeat of the same arguments offered in the one before it.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Vaktathi wrote:
Stormtrooper520 wrote:I really hate when people call the GKs cheese when a Guard mech list can blast them away. Anything that excels at range can really take them down.
Just because mech IG can blast them doesn't mean other armies can deal with them, and GK's can make armies very similar to mech IG. GK's can fit in 6 squads of troops with 3 meltas each in Chimeras with Coteaz and 3 Psyrifle dreads in 1000pts with points to spare.

Except that's 1087 points. Try again.

**Vaktathi**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
Stormtrooper520 wrote:I really hate when people call the GKs cheese when a Guard mech list can blast them away. Anything that excels at range can really take them down.
Just because mech IG can blast them doesn't mean other armies can deal with them, and GK's can make armies very similar to mech IG. GK's can fit in 6 squads of troops with 3 meltas each in Chimeras with Coteaz and 3 Psyrifle dreads in 1000pts with points to spare.

Except that's 1087 points. Try again.

Eh, so I was off by a bit, you could make it fit. Either way, still comparable highly comparable to IG and doesn't invalidate the point in any way.

DK

I think...imho...that i can take any army...and with enough time find a way to wipe out any built army...its when you have certain units most people always want to use thats when you cant defeat an army you have to adapt too

**Joey**

Vaktathi wrote:
Necroshea wrote:
I really don't see why people complain so much about vendettas. Yes, they are cheap, bringing 3 TL Lascannons for 130 pts, but they have AV 12 and their base puts them so far in the air that they'll NEVER get a cover save from most terrain. Honestly I think the Doom is far worse than the Vendetta.
As someone who owns 3 vendettas, I'll explain a bit.

The vendetta allows one to take significant long range firepower in an FoC slot that really isn't about providing that capability, keeping those HS slots open for pie-plates and more big guns.

Additionally, the Scout ability gives it a lot of flexibility and some very powerful turn 1 defensive capability (hey I get a 4+ cover save turn 1 from my scout move!)

I think if it were moved to HS instead of FA you'd see most complaints about it disappear as you wouldn't get the long range AT plus the pieplates to follow up the vendetta popping transports.

3 TL lascannons does NOT equal instant death, especially against AV14.
3 shots, 1.5 hits, twinlinked so 0.75 more hit =2.25 AP rolls
there's a 1 in 3 chance of a glancing or penetrating hit, so 0.75 will glance or penetrate, I can't be bothered doing the maths for damage penetration rolls but it doesn't look that good to me.
So after your Vendetta will be squatting in the open in front of enemy lines on turn 1 or 2, usually with some serious anti-tank fire coming your way.

**Vaktathi**

Joey wrote:
3 TL lascannons does NOT equal instant death, especially against AV14.

Where did I say it did or anything about AV14 at all?

3 shots, 1.5 hits, twinlinked so 0.75 more hit =2.25 AP rolls
there's a 1 in 3 chance of a glancing or penetrating hit, so 0.75 will glance or penetrate, I can't be bothered doing the maths for damage penetration rolls but it doesn't look that good to me.

AV14 isn't what the Vendetta is stellar against, (though it's one of the best units at that range), what it's great at is popping transports, MC's and medium tanks from across the board for a very low cost while still able to transport troops and play lots of deployment shennanigans.

So after your Vendetta will be squatting in the open in front of enemy lines on turn 1 or 2, usually with some serious anti-tank fire coming your way.

yes, and that's why they don't totally dominate the way many make them out to, but with the auto-4+ cover turn 1 from Scout, and the sheer cost effectiveness of the AT provided coupled with the range at which many armies can't adequately reply, it does make it a bit silly, especially for a FA unit instead of HS.

**Joey**

Vaktathi wrote: Where did I say it did or anything about AV14 at all?

AV14 isn't what the Vendetta is stellar against, (though it's one of the best units at that range), what it's great at is popping transports, MC's and medium tanks from across the board for a very low cost while still able to transport troops and play lots of deployment shennanigans.

If you want to "pop" transports, autocannons are 5p for a veteran squad, with orders to make them twin-linked. Plus the enemy has to kill the entire squad before they get to the gun, and it's BS4 to boot.

Vaktathi wrote:
yes, and that's why they don't totally dominate the way many make them out to, but with the auto-4+ cover turn 1 from Scout, and the sheer cost effectiveness of the AT provided coupled with the range at which many armies can't adequately reply, it does make it a bit silly, especially for a FA unit instead of HS.

I'd rather have a FA unit with a template attack that wounded on 2+ and was AP3.

**Brother SRM**

Zweischneid wrote:
Lascannons on devastators are not stupidly overpriced in comparison to well-written Codexes who don't hand out cheese like there's no tomorrow (e.g. those ineptly written pieces of junk that include Long Fangs or Ravagers). AV11 doesn't matter as the low cost of Ravagers (much like Long Fangs)., the lack of serious FoC competition due to horrid internal balance and the utter lack of cross-unit synergies allows DE to mindlessly spam that stuff, making up fragility with target saturation. Landraiders don't survive most games either. It's a non issue as Ravager put out 50% more shots a turn than a LC-Landraider at litte over 1/3 the price, better target saturation and an irrelevant weakness that doesn't in any way impede a Ravagers abiltiy to full-fill its role of de-meching an opponent in the early turns of a game.

But you are right. DE do not equal Space Marines, other than perhaps Space Wolves. These are simply cheesily written Codexes. Overpowered/Underpriced isn't even the worst of it. What's so sad about these is that they insult a gamers intelligence by straightjacketing into far too easy, far too straight forward, far too reliable, far too brainless spam-strategies that gut the game of any last inkling of subtelty or finesse that it may have once had before the coming of Phil Kelly.

They are stupidly overpriced. Nobody in their right minds would pay the 230 points minimum to take those four lascannons, especially considering a Land Raider with two twin linked lascannons and the ability to split fire is only a few points more, or a lascannon predator is slightly cheaper. Are those cheesy too? Tau can put out strength 10 twin linked shots! They're obviously an overpowered cheesy army as well.

A Ravager is AV11 and open topped. If your army doesn't have a gun that can stop that, then I don't know what to tell you. How is being fragile as all hell an "irrelevant" weakness? Heavy bolters can kill these things, stun them, shake them, blow off guns, or even wreck them because they're open topped. Dark Eldar are remarkably well balanced, and will absolutely crumble under any sort of decent firepower. What army do you play, by the way, that gives you such a hard time fighting Dark Eldar? If you say Imperial Guard, Space Marines, Orks, Grey Knights, Tau, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, or Eldar, I can give you a comprehensive list of things that can eat Dark Eldar vehicles for breakfast.

**TheAngrySquig**

Zweischneid wrote:
But you are right. DE do not equal Space Marines, other than perhaps Space Wolves. These are simply cheesily written Codexes. Overpowered/Underpriced isn't even the worst of it. What's so sad about these is that they insult a gamers intelligence by straightjacketing into far too easy, far too straight forward, far too reliable, far too brainless spam-strategies that gut the game of any last inkling of subtelty or finesse that it may have once had before the coming of Phil Kelly.

As a DE player I can personally confirm that they are not brainless. It is very easy to accidentally do something if you play SM and get away with it, but if you play DE the same mistake could crush your whole army. The one thing I will concede as cheese is the Razorwing flocks. Up to 50 wounds and rending attacks for 210 points

**Ashiraya**

You can say orks are cheese, with their 100+ WS4 S4 attacks on the charge from a single squad, eldar with their Wraithlords and Fire Prisms, Sm with PK, Lysander and sternguards in a droppod, and so on...... what is the point of this tread?

**Luke_Prowler**

Nothing, because you went and necro'd a dead topic.

DK

Ppl want to feel better bout losing to GK

**Vaktathi**

Joey wrote:
If you want to "pop" transports, autocannons are 5p for a veteran squad, with orders to make them twin-linked. Plus the enemy has to kill the entire squad before they get to the gun, and it's BS4 to boot.

They're 10 actually. And a single Autocannon, even BS4 and TL'd for 80pts at cheapest, isn't the most cost effective transport popping unit, and they can only get the order to reroll if they aren't in a chimera.

Vaktathi wrote:
I'd rather have a FA unit with a template attack that wounded on 2+ and was AP3.

Well, more power to you, but being able to reach across the board and one-round a Wraithlord or pop a tank, or abuse the scout/outflank ability with melta/demo charge troops on board, etc can generally make a much bigger impact in most games, especially when the rest of the army kills infantry, even heavy infantry, just fine and usually from across the board.

**daedalus**

Luke_Prowler wrote:Nothing, because you went and necro'd a dead topic.

Three days does not usually a dead thread make. I mean, I'm no Mod or anything, but really, it's a little excessive to call threadomancy on something less than a week old.

Having that been said, people REALLY need to calm down about new armies.

**Vaktathi**

daedalus wrote:
Having that been said, people REALLY need to calm down about new armies.

Eh, it's been out for coming up on 7 months here IIRC, it's not really that *new* anymore. At this point people have had a chance to take it around its paces and see what its about.

**Luke_Prowler**

daedalus wrote:
Luke_Prowler wrote:Nothing, because you went and necro'd a dead topic.

Three days does not usually a dead thread make. I mean, I'm no Mod or anything, but really, it's a little excessive to call threadomancy on something less than a week old.

Having that been said, people REALLY need to calm down about new armies.

I ussually consider a "dead topic" as one that's nearing the second page.

I do honestly wish someone would up and make a proper review of the codex rather than have this topic pop up over and over.

**daedalus**

Vaktathi wrote:
daedalus wrote:
Having that been said, people REALLY need to calm down about new armies.
Eh, it's been out for coming up on 7 months here IIRC, it's not really that *new* anymore. At this point people have had a chance to take it around its paces and see what its about.

I guess that's a valid point. Can we pretend I said "Flavor of the month marine" instead of new?

**nosferatu1001**

Why are you sticking melta acolytes in chimera? Stic them in psybacks - fortitude and BS4 tl > multilas

**Wulfen Andy**

The power creep has turned into an exponential rise with the GK. I have been studying into the differnces between Space Wolves (my army) and Grey Knights (my fourth army) and the power creep is insane. How the flinking blip can you allow a unit to use astral aim and shoot without seeing other units?

This list just goes on......

**daedalus**

Wulfen Andy wrote:The power creep has turned into an exponential rise with the GK. I have been studying into the differnces between Space Wolves (my army) and Grey Knights (my fourth army) and the power creep is insane.

Oh? There are a lot of differences. I think that saying that there is an exponential (as if you could measure that) difference between SW and GK is kind of hyperbole. In what ways do you think that...

How the flinking blip can you allow a unit to use astral aim and shoot without seeing other units?

...oh. THAT'S what you're worried about? This is 5th edition, man, you ALWAYS get the shot, they ALWAYS get the cover save. I've seen about 10-20 times in the years I've been playing that there were actually situations that a unit was completely denied the opportunity to shoot at another unit due to complete LOS blocking terrain. This is including tournament settings. I guess it's overpowered in the sense that it comes up more than the amphibious rule does, but, on the other hand, you're paying a premium for the weapons in a purgation squad also.

This list just goes on......

...does it?

**nosferatu1001**

What, like Hive Guard? Who can do it without a psychic check?

**Sasori**

I don't thin I've ever seen anyone take Purgation squads over Psyriflemen anyway.

**gman1401**

I can attest to their cheese

I am not the best or most avid gamer. I spend a majority of my hobby related time painting. However, I did play Orks for about 2 solid years and got good with them. Besides that army though, I have never been able to really smack an opponent, let alone win, with barely any other army I tried out. That is of course, until I started playing GK

. They're great but VERY cheese if you play anything involving a Draigowing or Coteaz spam and I've heard the Crowe setup isn't half bad either...

**Che-Vito**

nosferatu1001 wrote:What, like Hive Guard? Who can do it without a psychic check?

Nos, that is one of a handful of wonderful units...in a Codex that is comparatively subpar anymore.

**nosferatu1001**

No, the point was that stating Astral Aim is cheese, when it is a) on a poor unit that is outclassed by psyriflemen in essentially every way and b) requires a psychic check, so you have a chance of actually killing mdoels in order to actually do it - is a poor argument.

**SGTPozy**

Grey Knights are still cheesy, even in 2015.

**DaKKaLAnce**

SGTPozy wrote:
Grey Knights are still cheesy, even in 2015.

3-4 years later.....

**Verviedi**

SGTPozy wrote:
Grey Knights are still cheesy, even in 2015.

You bumped a FOUR YEAR dead post.
That is the biggest necro I've ever seen.

**Xenomancers**

Wow. Gk weren't unbeatable even then. In fact I lost more games than I won even with brand new 5th edition GK. So lets recap - GK now have 1 thing and 1 thing only that makes them competitive on their own. Dreadknights. Nothing else in the book is comparable to what vanilla marines get for the price.

Sterngard are superior to strike squads
Centurians are superior to paladins
Storm talon is superior to storm raven (marines can take this also anyways)
Tigurius is superior to all GK psykers
And 10 times the nitch options that Gk have.
and ofc...drop pods
If not for draigo auto gates. GK units wouldn't even be considered for competitive play.

**SGTPozy**

Xenomancers wrote:
Wow. Gk weren't unbeatable even then. In fact I lost more games than I won even with brand new 5th edition GK. So lets recap - GK now have 1 thing and 1 thing only that makes them competitive on their own. Dreadknights. Nothing else in the book is comparable to what vanilla marines get for the price.

Sterngard are superior to strike squads
Centurians are superior to paladins
Storm talon is superior to storm raven (marines can take this also anyways)
Tigurius is superior to all GK psykers
And 10 times the nitch options that Gk have.
and ofc...drop pods
If not for draigo auto gates. GK units wouldn't even be considered for competitive play.

Yes, but SM are the second best army so as a mid tier army you shouldn't be as broken as they are.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Verviedi wrote:
SGTPozy wrote:
Grey Knights are still cheesy, even in 2015.

You bumped a FOUR YEAR dead post.
That is the biggest necro I've ever seen.

DaKKaLAnce wrote:
SGTPozy wrote:
Grey Knights are still cheesy, even in 2015.

3-4 years later.....

I know it took a while but better late than never, right?