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There's a kid at my hobby club that uses a Gorkamorka truck to transport his nobs BEHIND a real ork truck holding boys, and I find it absolutely stupid. Is it seriously legal?

Yes, it is technically legal. Yes, he is being a tool.

The Gorkamorka trukk was also the regular 40K Ork trukk for quite a few years.

The rules don't require you to update your models to the newest version. So yes, it's perfectly legal to use the smaller trukk, and screen it with the newer one.

Given how fragile Trukks are, it doesn't really seem like that big a deal. Particularly since, thanks to the magic of perspective, if he was using a full size trukk for his Nobs, he would generally still be able to hide it behind the Boyz' trukk.

What pretre said. It's legal, but the size disparity is SO great that this is one of the few instances where many players object to the old model. Some large tournaments actually require it to be replaced by or treated as the current model size.

It is also perfectly legal to not play him because he is modeling for advantage.

Gorkamorka trukks are abusive and have no place as trukks in 5th edition and I am a ork player who has 50k+ of orks and almost every ork vehicle ever made.

The grace period is over, it is time to update your trukks and battlewagons fellas. No reason to have skateboards and 12"x24" tanks on the table.

My tool comment was mostly for specifically hiding it behind a larger truck. If he just had a mix, that's understandable.

I have a mate who has a few old ones and a few new ones, but he never tries the hiding trick. A real sportsman, that. And we both would probably just not play (again) vs someone who actually uses this for advantage.

nkelsch wrote:It is also perfectly legal to not play him because he is modeling for advantage.

Modeling for advantage does not apply. He's using a legal and unaltered model... no modeling has happened. He bought it, let him use it... if your army falls based on two Trukks, I don't think the fault is the ork player's.

Also what if the guy is just starting out and that's all he can afford at this time. Wouldn't we be the tools for saying "in not gonna play you because you don't have the newest model". That guy would quickly be asked to leave my FLGS. 'Friendly' being the key word.

nkelsch wrote:Gorkamorka trukks are abusive and have no place as trukks in 5th edition and I am a ork player who has 50k+ of orks and almost every ork vehicle ever made.

The grace period is over, it is time to update your trukks and battlewagons fellas. No reason to have skateboards and 12"x24" tanks on the table.

Glad you can afford it. I have a new Trukk that pieces snap off when my cat sneezes and 3 older Trukks that I dump out of a sack and have lasted forever. I paid for and painted my older Trukks, and I don't pull no shenanigans. I'll play with my perfectly legal Trukks as long as I feel like.

nkelsch wrote:It is also perfectly legal to not play him because he is modeling for advantage.

Gorkamorka trukks are abusive and have no place as trukks in 5th edition and I am a ork player who has 50k+ of orks and almost every ork vehicle ever made.

The grace period is over, it is time to update your trukks and battlewagons fellas. No reason to have skateboards and 12"x24" tanks on the table.

Yes, you're right. There is an officially sanctioned GW upgrade period after which you must replace your older models with newer ones because.... oh, wait. No, no there isn't. At all.

insaniak wrote:The Gorkamorka trukk was also the regular 40K Ork trukk for quite a few years.

The rules don't require you to update your models to the newest version. So yes, it's perfectly legal to use the smaller trukk, and screen it with the newer one.

Given how fragile Trukks are, it doesn't really seem like that big a deal. Particularly since, thanks to the magic of perspective, if he was using a full size trukk for his Nobs, he would generally still be able to hide it behind the Boyz' trukk.

This is true, if he had 2 models the same size, the model hiding behind the front would still be hidden! Doesn't make alot of difference. He could use the same technique!

I have only one Trukk (as I haven't bought any new models since I started playing again (busy trying to paint up my old ones!) and only have the old one.

...unless your opponent has a valkyrie, vendetta or a storm raven, or has placed any model on a higher level of a ruin. In all those cases, a model hiding behind another of the same size would be visible.

In any case, those gorka morka trukks are citadel space ork trukks, and thus legit models for any Warhammer40k game. TO are free to enforce any rules they wish, including forcing everyone to wear funny hats.

Rule of Cool can be a factor in reverse, though, even in friendly games. If I've got the choice between playing against someone with unappealing models which may be giving them a tactical advantage, or someone else, all other factors being equal I know which is more appealing.

Even back when the Gorkamorka trukk was the only official model I knew a number of Ork players who thought it was too small and converted all theirs to be bigger. Most of the Ork players I've encountered since the new model use the new model, and have retired the old ones or converted them to buggies.

Agreed. You are perfectly within your right to use that model for as long as you want and I am perfectly within my right to ask you to count it as a normal sized model or not play you.

Jidmah wrote:...unless your opponent has a valkyrie, vendetta or a storm raven, or has placed any model on a higher level of a ruin. In all those cases, a model hiding behind another of the same size would be visible.

In any case, those gorka morka trukks are citadel space ork trukks, and thus legit models for any Warhammer40k game. TO are free to enforce any rules they wish, including forcing everyone to wear funny hats.

didn't think about that!

I like the idea of wearing funny hats, I might make that a house rule

Mannahnin wrote:Rule of Cool can be a factor in reverse, though, even in friendly games. If I've got the choice between playing against someone with unappealing models which may be giving them a tactical advantage, or someone else, all other factors being equal I know which is more appealing.

Even back when the Gorkamorka trukk was the only official model I knew a number of Ork players who thought it was too small and converted all theirs to be bigger. Most of the Ork players I've encountered since the new model use the new model, and have retired the old ones or converted them to buggies.

That old trukk isn't much more ugly than the current buggy. Would you refuse to play someone because he didn't convert his buggies from deff koptaz?

Lobukia wrote:

nkelsch wrote:It is also perfectly legal to not play him because he is modeling for advantage.

Modeling for advantage does not apply. He's using a legal and unaltered model... no modeling has happened. He bought it, let him use it... if your army falls based on two Trukks, I don't think the fault is the ork player's.

Exactly! Of course, my Trukks (when finished) will be twice the length of a normal one. Rule of Cool will get me by though.

Jidmah wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Rule of Cool can be a factor in reverse, though, even in friendly games. If I've got the choice between playing against someone with unappealing models which may be giving them a tactical advantage, or someone else, all other factors being equal I know which is more appealing.

Even back when the Gorkamorka trukk was the only official model I knew a number of Ork players who thought it was too small and converted all theirs to be bigger. Most of the Ork players I've encountered since the new model use the new model, and have retired the old ones or converted them to buggies.

That old trukk isn't much more ugly than the current buggy. Would you refuse to play someone because he didn't convert his buggies from deff koptaz?

The appeal isn't purely aesthetic. The appeal is also the fact that it is a tactical modelling advantage and the player clearly knows it.. If someone assembled all of his buggies with deffkoptas so that they were flat on the ground and only stuck up about 0.5" or found all of the kneeling sculpts for his army so that he could get cover for all his models easier, it would be much the same.

I understand avoiding modelling for advantage but I refuse to spend money to model for a disadvantage.

Besides in many scenarios its a disadvantage to have a little truck. So it REALLY REALLY doesn't make a difference. I'd much rather spend the money on buying other cool models than replacing ones that I already have and are way more reliable than the new trucks

vercingatorix wrote:I understand avoiding modelling for advantage but I refuse to spend money to model for a disadvantage.

Besides in many scenarios its a disadvantage to have a little truck. So it REALLY REALLY doesn't make a difference. I'd much rather spend the money on buying other cool models than replacing ones that I already have and are way more reliable than the new trucks

When is it a disadvantage? I guarantee the advantage of not getting shot at outweighs any disadvantages of a tiny trukk.

And if you don't want to buy a new one, that's cool, I understand frugality. I'm sure you have a pretty rockin' bits box (as most ork players do), bulk that bad boy out a bit so it better matches the profile of a 'real' trukk.

Heck, half the reason to play orks is not to just use stock models...

Examples:

Mannahnin wrote:What pretre said. It's legal, but the size disparity is SO great that this is one of the few instances where many players object to the old model. Some large tournaments actually require it to be replaced by or treated as the current model size.

nkelsch wrote:The grace period is over, it is time to update your trukks and battlewagons fellas.

If they do this consistently, for all armies, then I have no issue with that. You have the old chimeras? Old hellhounds? Old rhinos? (They're smaller than the new ones. Don't you still use old rhinos Mannahnin?) Old marines, for that matter. Yeah, let's make this hobby more expensive by forcing everyone to completely replace any models that GW decided to redo.

No, on second thought, screw that. If someone bought a model from GW, they have a right to use it. Even if that gives them an advantage.

nkelsch wrote:
Gorkamorka trukks are abusive and have no place as trukks in 5th edition

You think the old ones are too small? I think the new ones are too big. The trukks are AV 10 and nearly the size of a battlewagon. They're bigger than rhinos. 5th ed cut their speed by 25%, every other army got a discount on their transports, but trukks cost more than they did in the old codex. They lost the ability to take any save at all (used to be able to take armour plates for a 6+ save), got the price of red paint and grot riggers doubled, and now have to exist in a metagame where everyone is packing a million ways to kill light vehicles.

There's a reason that you don't see competitive trukk rush armies. It's because they're not. Orks have a handful of reasonable builds, and none of them feature more than one trukk, usually kept in reserve or hidden by wagons. If you could still move fast enough to get to terrain that could hide you, like you could in 4th ed, then maybe I'd be more on board with the 'that trukk is too small' mentality. But in 5th, where there is no area terrain to hide behind, and you're moving 18" because fast isn't as fast if you're not a skimmer means you're caught in the open more often than not. No . Let them use the small trukks; realistically, it isn't going to make them any better.

nkelsch wrote:
and I am a ork player who has 50k+ of orks and almost every ork vehicle ever made.

Well, I guess that means you were able to afford to upgrade all yours. There are a lot of gamers who don't have that luxury.

Redbeard wrote:If they do this consistently, for all armies, then I have no issue with that. You have the old chimeras? Old hellhounds? Old rhinos? (They're smaller than the new ones. Don't you still use old rhinos Mannahnin?) Old marines, for that matter. Yeah, let's make this hobby more expensive by forcing everyone to completely replace any models that GW decided to redo.

If you re-read what M said, you'll see that he was talking about the size of the size disparity. It is huge. We're talking difference between RT Avatar and new Avatar huge. We're not saying completely replace your army but at least make some effort to update your minis and if you're not doing that, at least don't try to gain advantage by the fact you have the old minis. This guy has both and clearly is using the old ones to his advantage.

Nice wheelz

pretre wrote:
Heck, half the reason to play orks is not to just use stock models...

Or, it used to be. Before everyone got their panties in a bunch and started whining that any deviation from normal must be an advantage. I did a battlewagon conversion for adepticon last year, where I was very careful to maintain the width and length of the new kit, but put wheels on it that raised it another inch off the ground, making it even harder to hide behind something. I got nasty comments from opponents that I must have done that for an advantage, in spite of not having anything I was hiding behind it.

The attitude of other players sure takes a lot of fun out of doing cool stuff.

Also, as someone that runs old rhinos sometimes, I would clearly give you the benefit of the new profile if you asked for it.


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Redbeard wrote:I got nasty comments from opponents that I must have done that for an advantage, in spite of not having anything I was hiding behind it.

The attitude of other players sure takes a lot of fun out of doing cool stuff.

Wait, so other players are dicks sometimes? No way.

I'm sure we can agree that there is a difference between a conversion that looks cool and is unique and simply using a smaller model and putting no work into it.

pretre wrote:
If you re-read what M said, you'll see that he was talking about the size of the size disparity. It is huge. We're talking difference between RT Avatar and new Avatar huge.

No, I saw that. And it is a big disparity. I just disagree that it is all that important.

We're not saying completely replace your army but at least make some effort to update your minis and if you're not doing that, at least don't try to gain advantage by the fact you have the old minis. This guy has both and clearly is using the old ones to his advantage.

I have to replace enough of my armies due to GW's rules changes. I've got thousands of points of chaos models that are no longer legal (Emperor's Children terminators and bikes that cannot be WYSIWYG anymore, looted ork tanks that you cannot use anymore, and so on). I'll be damned if I have to replace models that still have a place in the codex because you think they're giving me an advantage. With a non-competitive unit to boot.

Don't even know why this is an issue. Its AV10 and the most it can ever get is a 4+ cover save. All you have to do is blow up the trukk. Don't you have any weapons greater or equal to strength 5? Hell basic infantry weapons can glance it on a 6.

Redbeard wrote:I have to replace enough of my armies due to GW's rules changes. I've got thousands of points of chaos models that are no longer legal (Emperor's Children terminators and bikes that cannot be WYSIWYG anymore, looted ork tanks that you cannot use anymore, and so on). I'll be damned if I have to replace models that still have a place in the codex because you think they're giving me an advantage. With a non-competitive unit to boot.

That's kind of the way of the hobby. We all have tons of models that don't work the way they used to or aren't WYSIWYG anymore. I'm sorry that you have more, but that's the way of it. Part of playing games is making sure that your army functions in the current book.

I strongly doubt that you have stock gorkamorka trukks in your army, but if you did, I would ask you to bulk them out or at least count them as the correct size in our games.


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gpfunk wrote:Don't even know why this is an issue. Its AV10 and the most it can ever get is a 4+ cover save. All you have to do is blow up the trukk. Don't you have any weapons greater or equal to strength 5? Hell basic infantry weapons can glance it on a 6.

if you can't draw LOS to the trukk, you can't blow it up, is the point. The OP wrote that the player was hiding it completely behind another trukk. Something that would be pretty hard to do with a real sized trukk.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, note that both M and I mentioned 'counting the models as the correct size' during the game several times as an option. If the guy can't / won't replace them, he can certainly count them as the correct size if LOS issues come up to be fair to his opponent.

Even today, you can get those gorka morka trukks dirt cheap of ebay, mostly because they are also dirt ugly. Last time I had an eye on one, it went cheaper than a new trukk which had brocken-off bits.

I strongly doubt that you have stock gorkamorka trukks in your army, but if you did, I would ask you to bulk them out or at least count them as the correct size in our games.

So, where is that "correct size" noted? Asking your opponent to do so would be just as ridiculous as him asking you to count all your models as twice as tall for no reason whatsoever.
If your opponent offers you to count them that way, that's good sportsmanship, but it's not something you can force them to do.