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Just for a laugh I once browsed Stormfront to see what crap lurked within, and along with the ludicrous "JEWS CONTROL THE MEDIA!!!" and "BLACKS MAKING KIDS GAY!!!" posts, I noticed a whole sub forum devoted to...

...The Lord of the Rings?

Seriously, what the feth? I know Tolkien was a professor of Anglo-Saxon mythology and history, but that's where the similarities to the cluster of bigoted arseholes that is Stormfront ends.

What. The. Hell?

Some people are delusional enough to think that Tolkien, and the Lord of the Rings, were written with racist intent.

Dwarves, in this line of thinking, are stereotypical greedy jews (which wasn't his intent at all, although it's easy for one to draw the conclusions by looking at stereotypes). Dark-skinned people are in the service of Sauron (which isn't actually true... the reinforcement to Pelennor Fields for example included dark-skinned people from the southern part of Gondor).

Yeah, tons of nutbags out there. I once saw a conspiracy theorist on DemocraticUnderground claim that the Jews were responsible for sinking the Titanic because ice cannot possible penetrate steel, and then conducted an "experiment" with cinder blocks, chicken wire, and kerosene to prove that 9/11 was an inside job by the Bush admin.

The internet is an outlet for these crazies. All you can do is laugh and shake your head at the same time.

Oh dear...

And there was me regaining some faith in humanity...

Melissia, I need a hug...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

djones520 wrote:
Yeah, tons of nutbags out there. I once saw a conspiracy theorist on DemocraticUnderground claim that the Jews were responsible for sinking the Titanic because ice cannot possible penetrate steel, and then conducted an "experiment" with cinder blocks, chicken wire, and kerosene to prove that 9/11 was an inside job by the Bush admin.

The internet is an outlet for these crazies. All you can do is laugh and shake your head at the same time.

What. The. Feth.

Tolien certainly had no affiliation with the nazi party. Here's his letter to the german gov regarding the german translation of the his books and if he was of jewish ancestry

25 July 1938
20 Northmoor Road, Oxford

Dear Sirs,

Thank you for your letter. I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend by arisch. I am not of Aryan extraction: that is Indo-Iranian; as far as I am aware none of my ancestors spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related dialects. But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people. My great-great-grandfather came to England in the eighteenth century from Germany: the main part of my descent is therefore purely English, and I am an English subject — which should be sufficient. I have been accustomed, nonetheless, to regard my German name with pride, and continued to do so throughout the period of the late regrettable war, in which I served in the English army. I cannot, however, forbear to comment that if impertinent and irrelevant inquiries of this sort are to become the rule in matters of literature, then the time is not far distant when a German name will no longer be a source of pride.

Your enquiry is doubtless made in order to comply with the laws of your own country, but that this should be held to apply to the subjects of another state would be improper, even if it had (as it has not) any bearing whatsoever on the merits of my work or its sustainability for publication, of which you appear to have satisfied yourselves without reference to my Abstammung.

I trust you will find this reply satisfactory, and

remain yours faithfully,

J. R. R. Tolkien

Only one serious reply here

 youbedead wrote:

25 July 1938
20 Northmoor Road, Oxford

Dear Sirs,

Thank you for your letter. I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend by arisch. I am not of Aryan extraction: that is Indo-Iranian; as far as I am aware none of my ancestors spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related dialects. But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people. My great-great-grandfather came to England in the eighteenth century from Germany: the main part of my descent is therefore purely English, and I am an English subject — which should be sufficient. I have been accustomed, nonetheless, to regard my German name with pride, and continued to do so throughout the period of the late regrettable war, in which I served in the English army. I cannot, however, forbear to comment that if impertinent and irrelevant inquiries of this sort are to become the rule in matters of literature, then the time is not far distant when a German name will no longer be a source of pride.

Your enquiry is doubtless made in order to comply with the laws of your own country, but that this should be held to apply to the subjects of another state would be improper, even if it had (as it has not) any bearing whatsoever on the merits of my work or its sustainability for publication, of which you appear to have satisfied yourselves without reference to my Abstammung.

I trust you will find this reply satisfactory, and

remain yours faithfully,

J. R. R. Tolkien

OMG.

Tolkien actually knows what an Aryan is? In 30's? EDIT: Also, didn't know Indo-Iranian was actually in use in the 30's I thought it was more recent than that XD

Kool Points would be awarded, but Tolkien already has a mountain of them so it would be kind of pointless.

Tolkien was a philologist by trade-- he studied language, the history of language, etymology, etc.

So he definitely would know terms like that.

Now that I did not know. That actually makes a massive amount of sense considering the style the Lord of the Rings was written in. Kind of flowery but not purple. A guy who knows language could definitely pull that off.

Visiting Stormfront is the real facepalm, especially if you are from the UK.
The government already has a right to a full transcript of all websearches conducted by persons in the UK, and watch certain websites for activity, Operation Orb is a good example of this.
This would be ok, were it not that we live in a society where blanket assumptions are often made by those in authority. Turn up often enough at a website like that and authorities might wonder why you are doing so, and by and large they don't stop to think you are researching. According to the current doctrine people don't research, they visit sites to sate baser desires, so anyone known to visit Stormfront is therefore likely to be a far right extremist. You might not get a chance to convince anyone otherwise, and this might effect you if you go for certain job positions.
Turning up at a far right extremist site to research is similar to what Pete Townsend did researching paedos. It might be logical, but its still grossly unwise, it could come back to haunt you. One or two visits is likely safe, but I wouldn't stretch beyond that. I would like to visit Stormfront because it is important to know what people think and do, however I dare not visit so heavily monitored site as that, not with our dogmatised police service.

 LordofHats wrote:


OMG.

Tolkien actually knows what an Aryan is? In 30's? EDIT: Also, didn't know Indo-Iranian was actually in use in the 30's I thought it was more recent than that XD

Well he was an active professor at one of the worlds most prestigious universities. That should be enough.
Furthermore he was a linguistic scholar, and linguistics is heavily linked to anthropology, where a people group comes from and whom they connect to came from helps understand the origin and structure of their language.
All told it would be very unlikely indeed that Tolkien would have had to look anything up before replying as he did. His comment about Jews has been oft quoted and misquoted. Tolkien didnt' envy Jews, he hated the Nazi policy of anti-semitism and wanted to make a carefully worded F-U to the Third Reich.

 LordofHats wrote:
Now that I did not know. That actually makes a massive amount of sense considering the style the Lord of the Rings was written in. Kind of flowery but not purple. A guy who knows language could definitely pull that off.

Really the books were just a way to show the brand new language he came up with

Tolkien needs no more cool points, I regard to this day LOTR as still being the best book I have ever read, I loved it when I was 15, and I loved it even more when I read it again some 12 years later.

I guarantee it is the only book with singing in that I will ever enjoy.

 mattyrm wrote:
Tolkien needs no more cool points, I regard to this day LOTR as still being the best book I have ever read, I loved it when I was 15, and I loved it even more when I read it again some 12 years later.

I guarantee it is the only book with singing in that I will ever enjoy.

The story was great. The writing was atrocious. I read those books once, I cannot reread them. Tolkein created a true work of art, but I wish he had a ghost writer.

Why was the writing atrocious?

If the entire point of a book is to be entertaining, and it is, whats the problem!?

My missus says things like that because she is a bit pretentious, she loves Ulysses, but hates LOTR, but the former was boring as feth and the latter was all kinds of awesome!

That being the case, who cares if scholars deem it "atrocious" anyway!?

djones520 wrote:

The story was great. The writing was atrocious. I read those books once, I cannot reread them. Tolkein created a true work of art, but I wish he had a ghost writer.

Heretic. The language is beautiful.

I do understand that there is a generation gap problem with it, people don't understand proper English anymore, whether from the UK or abroad. At least you have some excuse being a Yank. Reading Tolkien is very natural to me, it may be partly indecipherable to some, but its silky smooth prose to others.

I can see Tolkien's prose as being a bit of a struggle at times, but that's it. The writing was beautiful. One of those authors who not only understands the mechanics of the craft but the language, which isn't something you typically get in popular writing (its one of the 'reasons' Americans these days don't even get considered for a Noble in literature).

The only criticism I would have about the writing is that it could be too detailed at some points. How many pages of "hobbits are walking around, the sun is bright, oh look mushrooms *insert page about how to cook the mushrooms* they are the best friends ever and are walking around some more while the sun is bright....etc etc etc" do you need.

But I do love the books.

When I first read LOTR it was a bit thick for me, lots of details and the like and required a serious amount of effort to focus in on. Albeit I was eight or nine so that's probably understandable. Even then though I did not have any problem with his prose. I am apparently rare in this regard amongst my peer group, later on in my junior year of high school (15-16 years old) it took us half a year to chew through Nathaniel Hawthorne's "The Scarlet Letter" which is incredibly, minutely thin to the point that I'd consider it for a short hop of an airline flight or a lazy afternoon, but nothing more extended. Meanwhile my class's brains were hurt by Old English in any form thus drawing the book out to the point of being ludicrous.

TLR Tolkein's a literary god, Portions of the American populace may as well be illiterate.

Yeah I can agree on the overly long descriptions like, I remember one page where he writes about 6 paragraphs about how nice some hills are.. and I thought "Ok mate the countryside is nice, now for feths sake..lets get back to some stabbing!"

Tolkein was old-school "Gosh aren't you fellows rather swarthy" racist.

Stormfront are lonely pyschopath shooting up a school racist.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 d-usa wrote:
The only criticism I would have about the writing is that it could be too detailed at some points. How many pages of "hobbits are walking around, the sun is bright, oh look mushrooms *insert page about how to cook the mushrooms* they are the best friends ever and are walking around some more while the sun is bright....etc etc etc" do you need.

Find something shiny to chase after.

 Testify wrote:
Tolkein was old-school "Gosh aren't you fellows rather swarthy" racist.

Discrimination against orcs?

If that is an issue this country is even more fethed that I realised.

 Orlanth wrote:

 Testify wrote:
Tolkein was old-school "Gosh aren't you fellows rather swarthy" racist.

Discrimination against orcs?

If that is an issue this country is even more fethed that I realised.

No, orcs are the industrial working class.

LOTR is pretty racist against the Haradrim and other "dark people" though, there's no denying.

Inb4 someone quotes the bit where sam and frodo are in Ithilian and Sam wonders about the dead Haradrim's motives.

 Testify wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
The only criticism I would have about the writing is that it could be too detailed at some points. How many pages of "hobbits are walking around, the sun is bright, oh look mushrooms *insert page about how to cook the mushrooms* they are the best friends ever and are walking around some more while the sun is bright....etc etc etc" do you need.

Find something shiny to chase after.

I'm not understanding the criticism here, sorry?

I was just trying to say that at times it just seems like there is too much fluff to read through. It does allow you to paint a pretty vivid and detailed picture with your mind though.

Actually the FOOD is valid criticism that LOTR and Brian Jacques's Redwall books must be saddled with. Goddess forsake that is a lot of delicious grub, and it's rather difficult to read through some of the various feasts in either series without having the urge to do the kind of cooking that involves multiple large water fowl.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Actually the FOOD is valid criticism that LOTR and Brian Jacques's Redwall books must be saddled with. Goddess forsake that is a lot of delicious grub, and it's rather difficult to read through some of the various feasts in either series without having the urge to do the kind of cooking that involves multiple large water fowl.

The redwall cookbook http://www.amazon.com/The-Redwall-Cookbook-Brian-Jacques/dp/0399237917 makes the feasts much more entertaining

Great. Now I'm hungry again, and thanks to Scout is Hungry (search it on youtube, it is hilarious) I have images of Frodo waltzing into the Prancing Pony and declaring "I'm gonna EET some FUH-KING FOOD!"

I read LOTR, the Hobbit and the Silmarillion at least once every year or two, and it is, without a doubt, one of the only novels that can bring me to tears, which normally I am too emotionally stunted to shed, but man, when frodo leaves the grey havens, and sam is just all upset and all these people he has come to love are leaving and they won't ever come back, and he has to make do with the normal life of a hobbit after this epic, soul wrenching adventure, but its the life he's always wanted. man. that always gets to me. :/

 Testify wrote:

No, orcs are the industrial working class.

No they are not, thats revisionist rubbish. Tolkien himself said there was no allegory in Lord of the Rings.

 Testify wrote:

LOTR is pretty racist against the Haradrim and other "dark people" though, there's no denying.

Dark as in not-light, not dark as in ethnic.

Tolkien uses the darkness and light concepts strongly, magic is connected to colour, hence why wizards had specific coloured robes. Sauron and Morgoths power was Black as in unholy, dark and devoid of light, not negroid. The alliance of the West's primary power was White meaning light and purity not caucasian.

Swarthy refers to a look and mannerism not necessarily an ethnicity. Besides even dark doesnt always mean evil, Legolas was a Dark Elf, he was born from among the Avari, those who did not make the journey to live in Valinor under the light of the Trees.

 youbedead wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Actually the FOOD is valid criticism that LOTR and Brian Jacques's Redwall books must be saddled with. Goddess forsake that is a lot of delicious grub, and it's rather difficult to read through some of the various feasts in either series without having the urge to do the kind of cooking that involves multiple large water fowl.

The redwall cookbook http://www.amazon.com/The-Redwall-Cookbook-Brian-Jacques/dp/0399237917 makes the feasts much more entertaining

....Welp from the description "Heavy on butter and cream" I think I might be gaining a pound or two from this! Now if only there was a LOTR cook book my nerd cooking library would be complete.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

 youbedead wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Actually the FOOD is valid criticism that LOTR and Brian Jacques's Redwall books must be saddled with. Goddess forsake that is a lot of delicious grub, and it's rather difficult to read through some of the various feasts in either series without having the urge to do the kind of cooking that involves multiple large water fowl.

The redwall cookbook http://www.amazon.com/The-Redwall-Cookbook-Brian-Jacques/dp/0399237917 makes the feasts much more entertaining

....Welp from the description "Heavy on butter and cream" I think I might be gaining a pound or two from this! Now if only there was a LOTR cook book my nerd cooking library would be complete.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Lord-Rings-Cookbook-ebook/dp/B005JQ9FSI