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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/22 21:51:03
Subject: Re:Remaining living witnesses of the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy
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Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator
Croatia
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No matter how "that situation " was silly - it still counts as atempt of peaceful resolution...
and Magnus admited that he putted spies into the SW - so I'm wondering were both of them been played....
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ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/23 00:57:17
Subject: Re:Remaining living witnesses of the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy
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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot
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DeffDred wrote:There is a DA space marine that was alive durring the heresy.
During a battle with the World Eaters he is thrown from the swirling mass of assault crafts and lost to his legion.
He has no choice but to wait for help while floating in space and noone ever comes.
He passes out and wakes up 10,000 years later at the edge of the Eye of Terror.
He is then discovered by a fallen and the two have some interesting conversations.
How? And in which novel? If he passed out, his armor/ hibernation organ thingy would only keep him alive for a short while
I think at most 6 years. ( random number, most certainly not 10,000) though it could be a mystical miracle in 40k
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Seeing a squad of veterens swoop in in a Vendetta, secure the area, deliver that math assignment, and extract within 2 minutes would be freaking sweet.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/23 01:44:10
Subject: Remaining living witnesses of the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy
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Daemonic Dreadnought
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There are some of those Thunder Warriors who survived their purge. Can't remember which book it is but their leader apparently has knowledge of genetics that rival the Emperor's and gets his hands on some geneseed during the heresy. They might still be alive.
I remember now, Outcast Dead
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/23 01:55:42
Gods? There are no gods. Merely existences, obstacles to overcome.
"And what if I told you the Wolves tried to bring a Legion to heel once before? What if that Legion sent Russ and his dogs running, too ashamed to write down their defeat in Imperial archives?" - ADB |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/23 02:47:03
Subject: Remaining living witnesses of the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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Lynata wrote: n0t_u wrote:Lynata wrote:Grey Templar wrote:Dante is NOT 1,100 years old. He's been Chapter Master for 1,100 years. Nobody knows exactly how old he is(although he is surely the oldest)
The 6E rulebook specifically says 1.100 years of age, though.
So as soon as he was born they popped him into some power armour and pushed him in front of the Blood Angels? 
I think it's more likely that either one of the two numbers was a mistake. Where is the Chapter Master thing from? It could be Grey Templar simply mis-remembering ... or if it is out of some novel, just one author mixing things up again.
Its a quite from Lysander, in the BA codex IIRC.
It says he cannot remember a time when Dante was not Chapter master of the Blood Angels. And Lysander was stuck in the Warp for 1,000 years and is around 400 actual years old.
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/23 03:26:14
Subject: Re:Remaining living witnesses of the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy
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Hallowed Canoness
Ireland
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Alright, so I've tracked some more sources down to get to the bottom of this. For starters, Dante's age is already given with ~1.100 in 2nd Edition:
"One of the peculiarities of the Flaw is that it has vastly increased the lifespan of those who survive, so it is not uncommon for Blood Angels to live for a thousand years. Indeed, the current Commander of the Chapter, has lived for nearly 1,100 years."
-- 2E C:Angels of Death
For comparison, here is the 6E rulebook quote:
"Commander Dante is said to be 1100 standard Terran years of age and his vast service record fills entire libraries with material."
Now then, next I went to the 5E Space Marine Codex, where I found this:
"In the latter years of M40, the Strike Cruiser Shield of Valour was lost to the Warp, taking Lysander and a good portion of the 1st Company with it. [...] Nearly a thousand years later the Shield of Valour re-entered normal space in outer orbit of Malodrax, an Iron Warriors stronghold on the western fringes of the Eye of Terror."
Note how it says nearly a thousand years, which means we have some room to manoeuver. This space is further increased by the first part mentioning " latter years of M40" ( http://www.thefreedictionary.com/latter), for we actually have the exact date the Shield of Valour appeared again: 964.M41.
Now, given that Space Marines - in spite of their nimbus - actually die from time to time, it seems that becoming a Chapter Master within two or three centuries is quite possible (indeed for other Chapters it would be mandatory, given that even Space Marines have a lifespan of "only" a few hundred years). So, given the aforementioned fluff I would summarise that Dante must have become Chapter Master shortly before the Shield of Valour disappeared, and has held this position ever since, whereas the exact time Lysander's vessel was trapped in the Warp would be somewhere around ~700-900 standard years. Contradiction averted!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/23 07:14:52
Subject: Remaining living witnesses of the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy
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Powerful Pegasus Knight
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So if you can't remember when something wasn't the case, that means it has been the case your entire lifetime?
No. The statement simply says that if there was a BA chapter master in Lysanders time in real space before Dante. Lysander can't remember him.
...and that's taking the statement literally when it is more than possible Lysander romanticising. i.e. "Dante has been around for so long I forget who the last guy was'.
No silly time dilation explanation needed.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/08/23 07:18:24
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/23 13:25:07
Subject: Remaining living witnesses of the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy
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Hallowed Canoness
Ireland
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That's a good point. I suppose it would be more clear if we knew when exactly Lysander made that statement.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/23 13:45:28
Subject: Remaining living witnesses of the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy
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Irradiated Baal Scavanger
Australia
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As one of the earlier posts say in Angels of Darkness by Gav Thorpe there is a surviving Dark Angel from during the Heresy called Astelan who goes into stasis.
Spoiler alert:
In the book also implies Luther is still alive. So that's two right there
First post. Hey everyone!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/23 14:11:24
Subject: Remaining living witnesses of the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy
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Lethal Lhamean
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How about the Sanguinor? Not that I expect it to speak to anyone much, though.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/23 14:12:26
Subject: Re:Remaining living witnesses of the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy
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Dakka Veteran
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The most pure form of documentation on the big E and the HH would most likely be held by Trazyn. Dude loves history and that includes imperial history. I'd also think a number of older dark eldar that survived Vects purge remember the Emperor and the HH.
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"AM are bunch of half human-half robot monkeys who keep tech working by punching it with a wrench And their tech is so sophisticated that you could never get it wrapped it out" thing a LITTLE to seriously. It also goes "Tau tech is so awesome I wish I was Tau and not some stupid Human" thing.
-Brother Coa Sig'd For the Greater Good |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/23 14:24:14
Subject: Re:Remaining living witnesses of the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy
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Angry Blood Angel Assault marine
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Are the Space Marines in the HH books supposed to be immortal or not? I seem to remember reading that none have lived long enough to test the theory really, but the lifespan of marines if they're not immortal seems to vary a lot between sources...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/23 14:37:37
Subject: Re:Remaining living witnesses of the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy
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Powerful Pegasus Knight
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redbristles wrote:Are the Space Marines in the HH books supposed to be immortal or not? I seem to remember reading that none have lived long enough to test the theory really, but the lifespan of marines if they're not immortal seems to vary a lot between sources...
It's up for debate. In Horus Rising it explicitly states marines are immortal and live until they die in battle. However in A Thousand Sons Ahriman says in the dialogue, like you say, that none have lived long enough to know if they are immortal or not.
The only other place marine lifespan is hinted at is in one of the BA codexes where it says Blood Angels live longer than other marine chapters. Which implies Marines do have a finite lifespan.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/08/23 14:43:14
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/23 15:30:51
Subject: Remaining living witnesses of the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy
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Implacable Skitarii
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Glorioski wrote:So if you can't remember when something wasn't the case, that means it has been the case your entire lifetime?
No. The statement simply says that if there was a BA chapter master in Lysanders time in real space before Dante. Lysander can't remember him.
...and that's taking the statement literally when it is more than possible Lysander romanticising. i.e. "Dante has been around for so long I forget who the last guy was'.
No silly time dilation explanation needed.
BTW, there's these friendly smiling an' waving g ray guys with mindwiping fetish.
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Without passion we'd be truly dead. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/23 18:11:37
Subject: Re:Remaining living witnesses of the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy
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Mutating Changebringer
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Decio wrote: DeffDred wrote:There is a DA space marine that was alive durring the heresy.
During a battle with the World Eaters he is thrown from the swirling mass of assault crafts and lost to his legion.
He has no choice but to wait for help while floating in space and noone ever comes.
He passes out and wakes up 10,000 years later at the edge of the Eye of Terror.
He is then discovered by a fallen and the two have some interesting conversations.
How? And in which novel? If he passed out, his armor/ hibernation organ thingy would only keep him alive for a short while
I think at most 6 years. ( random number, most certainly not 10,000) though it could be a mystical miracle in 40k
The book Eye of Terror. Published in 1999. Perhaps one of the strangest 40k books out there.
I think he survives hibernation so long because he is in vacuum (literally, the story says his armour vented all air and froze him within) but also it hints he was guided by the powers of chaos to the rose cluster.
I recommend this book only because of all the silly stuff in it. Navigators walking around unguarded, Rogue Traders selling Wraithguard, Astartes fighting in space without helmets ect.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/23 18:45:19
Subject: Re:Remaining living witnesses of the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy
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Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine
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To get back to part of the OP question. Would anyone oppose the current version of the "Imperial Truth"?
I don't think so. I think if any of the loyal primarchs came back/woke up they would be angry at how things are, but they would understand that it has to be this way to prevent another civil war and to keep people in line.
There is a great short story by John French called "The Last Remembrancer" which details Dorn interrogating a remembrancer that witnessed the turn of Horus from loyalist to traitor. Dorn is left wondering if the Imperial Truth ever existed.
The current Imperium is awful, but it sort of works.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/23 18:49:56
Subject: Re:Remaining living witnesses of the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy
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Potent Possessed Daemonvessel
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DarthMarko wrote:No matter how "that situation " was silly - it still counts as atempt of peaceful resolution...
and Magnus admited that he putted spies into the SW - so I'm wondering were both of them been played....
It was not an attempt to communicate, because they were wrong about him being a TS plant. Completely and utterly wrong. Why not use standard channels? Especially when you find the planetary defenses powered down and the way to the planet wide open? Why just assume that your brother is the devil and wants to destroy you, when he really could care less? Magnus never admitted to planting spies in the Wolves' ranks. He wouldn't need to, given his scrying capabilities.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/23 22:20:09
Subject: Re:Remaining living witnesses of the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy
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Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator
Croatia
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Omegus wrote: DarthMarko wrote:No matter how "that situation " was silly - it still counts as atempt of peaceful resolution...
and Magnus admited that he putted spies into the SW - so I'm wondering were both of them been played....
It was not an attempt to communicate, because they were wrong about him being a TS plant. Completely and utterly wrong. Why not use standard channels? Especially when you find the planetary defenses powered down and the way to the planet wide open? Why just assume that your brother is the devil and wants to destroy you, when he really could care less? Magnus never admitted to planting spies in the Wolves' ranks. He wouldn't need to, given his scrying capabilities.
See how one sided you are
Now tell me something that they were good and honest...without offence - read TS again
And I would like your clarification of that ...
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/08/23 23:14:23
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/24 02:26:48
Subject: Re:Remaining living witnesses of the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy
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Hallowed Canoness
Ireland
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Glorioski wrote:redbristles wrote:Are the Space Marines in the HH books supposed to be immortal or not? I seem to remember reading that none have lived long enough to test the theory really, but the lifespan of marines if they're not immortal seems to vary a lot between sources...
It's up for debate. In Horus Rising it explicitly states marines are immortal and live until they die in battle. However in A Thousand Sons Ahriman says in the dialogue, like you say, that none have lived long enough to know if they are immortal or not.
The only other place marine lifespan is hinted at is in one of the BA codexes where it says Blood Angels live longer than other marine chapters. Which implies Marines do have a finite lifespan. "Space Marines live extended lifetimes - if they do not fall in battle, they can easily live two or three times longer than a normal man, and sometimes far longer."
-- 6E Rulebook p181, 'Forces of the Imperium'
There you have it. Sounds like this would be somewhat on par with what Rejuvenation Treatments can do for rich and/or influential Imperial officials. Makes kind of sense, too, when it's the same technology and the Astartes just have it kind of "built-in" (like, for example, some gland that produces a drug).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/24 05:58:20
Subject: Remaining living witnesses of the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy
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Noble Knight of the Realm
United Kingdom, England, Manchester
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Surely there has got to be some Custodes still around since they only Guard the Emperor and don't get involved in off world conflicts.
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Chapter Master of Vigilia Mortis
www.battle-brothers.net
------
[b]Eternal Crusade Forum
Project: Thinking of creating HH 1st Company Imperial Fist Templars |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/24 17:37:43
Subject: Re:Remaining living witnesses of the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy
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Powerful Pegasus Knight
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Lynata wrote:Glorioski wrote:redbristles wrote:Are the Space Marines in the HH books supposed to be immortal or not? I seem to remember reading that none have lived long enough to test the theory really, but the lifespan of marines if they're not immortal seems to vary a lot between sources...
It's up for debate. In Horus Rising it explicitly states marines are immortal and live until they die in battle. However in A Thousand Sons Ahriman says in the dialogue, like you say, that none have lived long enough to know if they are immortal or not.
The only other place marine lifespan is hinted at is in one of the BA codexes where it says Blood Angels live longer than other marine chapters. Which implies Marines do have a finite lifespan. "Space Marines live extended lifetimes - if they do not fall in battle, they can easily live two or three times longer than a normal man, and sometimes far longer."
-- 6E Rulebook p181, 'Forces of the Imperium'
Ah looks like they finally put that debate to rest then.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/24 19:32:17
Subject: Re:Remaining living witnesses of the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy
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Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine
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Glorioski wrote: Lynata wrote:Glorioski wrote:redbristles wrote:Are the Space Marines in the HH books supposed to be immortal or not? I seem to remember reading that none have lived long enough to test the theory really, but the lifespan of marines if they're not immortal seems to vary a lot between sources...
It's up for debate. In Horus Rising it explicitly states marines are immortal and live until they die in battle. However in A Thousand Sons Ahriman says in the dialogue, like you say, that none have lived long enough to know if they are immortal or not.
The only other place marine lifespan is hinted at is in one of the BA codexes where it says Blood Angels live longer than other marine chapters. Which implies Marines do have a finite lifespan. "Space Marines live extended lifetimes - if they do not fall in battle, they can easily live two or three times longer than a normal man, and sometimes far longer."
-- 6E Rulebook p181, 'Forces of the Imperium'
Ah looks like they finally put that debate to rest then.
But...that's just for current marines. The gene seed that they carry has been degrading for 10,000 years. I think it's a case of a copy not being as good as the original. With the loss of technology and knowledge, the marines that are produced in the 41st millennium are not as good as the ones that were made in the 31st.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/24 20:25:33
Subject: Remaining living witnesses of the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy
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Powerful Pegasus Knight
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That's a bit far fetched. I'd rather just go with what Ahriman says, that at the time of the great crusade they hadn't lived long enough to know if they were immortal or not.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/26 19:22:25
Subject: Remaining living witnesses of the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy
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Been Around the Block
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In the blood angels codex it mentions that some of their dreadnoughts have been alive since the horus heresy.
There is also the character in the salamanders book, numerous chaos marines, and Bjorn.
And the remembrancer in prospero burns! He stays in stasis except to recite the tales from the heresy.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/26 19:25:02
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/27 00:05:33
Subject: Remaining living witnesses of the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy
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Homicidal Veteran Blood Angel Assault Marine
Massachusetts
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Actually the BA Codex mentions that the dreadnoughts themselves are from as far back as the heresy, not their occupants.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/27 13:57:34
Subject: Remaining living witnesses of the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy
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Hallowed Canoness
Ireland
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Interesting. Can Marines entombed into a Dreadnought still die of old age? I've read that they are put on stasis except when needed, which would naturally prolong their "expiration", but if they see sufficient combat perhaps the occupant has to be exchanged for a new guy from time to time?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/27 14:01:47
Subject: Re:Remaining living witnesses of the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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Not really, the sarcophogas uses stasis technology to preserve the body.
And if it would eventually die naturally, it hasn't happened yet to my knowledge. All dreadnought deaths are as a result of enemy action.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/27 14:02:28
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/27 14:04:31
Subject: Remaining living witnesses of the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy
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Powerful Pegasus Knight
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I'm sure I read somewhere Bjorn has had to have increasingly longer periods in stasis because of age.Which suggests they do have an expiration date when entombed in a dreadnought.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/27 14:08:05
Subject: Re:Remaining living witnesses of the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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I believe thats a requirement for his mental health, not his physical health.
Which leads to the actual expiration reason for a dreadnought. They go crazy and have to be put down, their body could last a long time but their mind just loses it.
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/27 14:17:57
Subject: Remaining living witnesses of the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy
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Powerful Pegasus Knight
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All he asked was...
Lynata wrote:Interesting. Can Marines entombed into a Dreadnought still die of old age?
I don't know why it being physical or mental would make any difference to that.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/27 15:26:24
Subject: Re:Remaining living witnesses of the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy
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Hallowed Canoness
Ireland
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Grey Templar wrote:Not really, the sarcophogas uses stasis technology to preserve the body.
Yeah, but wouldn't they have to be put out of stasis to do battle?
I was under impression that stasis freezes everything, including your brain and its activity.
If not ... hell, I don't want to know what a tortured soul a certain Primarch has to be by now.
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