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Hi, looking for RAW RAI and HYWPI interpretations of this one.

What happens when an assault vehicle is wrecked by shooting in the opponents shooting phase? As I read the RAW they can assault in the opponents assault phase immediately following, but not in their own. That seems daft, so I think RAI and HIWPI is assault is ok on their own turn. Thoughts?

No assaulting at all RAW.
Can't assault in your opponents turn.
Can't assault in their next assault phase.

rigeld2 wrote:
No assaulting at all RAW.
Can't assault in your opponents turn.

Please provide a rules reference for this, the assault vehicle rules state

BRB wrote:Passengers disembarking from Access Points on a vehicle with this special rule can charge on the turn they do so, even on a turn the vehicle was destroyed

That seems to give permission to charge in the opponents turn RAW. Where is that permission negated?

rigeld2 wrote:
Can't assault in their next assault phase.

Agreed, RAW, because of the above wording.

So I conclude as my original statement assault on opponents turn, not your own is RAW, assault on your own (not your opponents) is RAI and HIWPI.

Drager wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
No assaulting at all RAW.
Can't assault in your opponents turn.

Please provide a rules reference for this, the assault vehicle rules state

BRB wrote:Passengers disembarking from Access Points on a vehicle with this special rule can charge on the turn they do so, even on a turn the vehicle was destroyed

That seems to give permission to charge in the opponents turn RAW. Where is that permission negated?

BRB page 20 wrote:Choose a unit in your army that is declaring a charge and nominate the enemy unit(s) it is attempting to charge.

Context of that rule is that "your army" refers to the army owned by the player whose turn it currently is.
Assault Vehicle doesn't get around that restriction. Unless you can find a way to choose a unit in your opponents turn.

Drager wrote:So I conclude as my original statement assault on opponents turn, not your own is RAW, assault on your own (not your opponents) is RAI and HIWPI.

I'd say it is impossible to derive RAI currently, considering that the word choice in Assault Vehicle USR does look deliberate. They could have just written "can charge after disembarking" and left the "on the turn they do so" off if they wanted that. And it would have been less complex rule. Compare it to FMC Grounding rules where not losing Swooping status just looks like writers omission.
Well, it will get FAQ'd, one way or another.

I'd say it is impossible to derive RAI currently, considering that the word choice in Assault Vehicle USR does look deliberate. They could have just written "can charge after disembarking" and left the "on the turn they do so" off if they wanted that. And it would have been less complex rule. Compare it to FMC Grounding rules where not losing Swooping status just looks like writers omission.
Well, it will get FAQ'd, one way or another.

May be it's a compensation for overwatch(enemies shooting on the assault army's turn)...

rigeld2 wrote:

Drager wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
No assaulting at all RAW.
Can't assault in your opponents turn.

Please provide a rules reference for this, the assault vehicle rules state

BRB wrote:Passengers disembarking from Access Points on a vehicle with this special rule can charge on the turn they do so, even on a turn the vehicle was destroyed

That seems to give permission to charge in the opponents turn RAW. Where is that permission negated?

BRB page 20 wrote:Choose a unit in your army that is declaring a charge and nominate the enemy unit(s) it is attempting to charge.

Context of that rule is that "your army" refers to the army owned by the player whose turn it currently is.
Assault Vehicle doesn't get around that restriction. Unless you can find a way to choose a unit in your opponents turn.

What about interceptor and shooting? Very similar wording.

Drager wrote:
What about interceptor and shooting? Very similar wording.

Not at all. Interceptor specifically allows the action in the enemy's movement phase. I don't see specific allowance to work in the enemy's Assault phase in the Assault Vehicle wording.

"Can charge on the turn they do so" What other phase do you charge in?

Drager wrote:
"Can charge on the turn they do so" What other phase do you charge in?

thats an interesting point. you can charge on the turn you disembark even if the vehicle is destroyed, sounds like permission to charge in your opponents assault phase.

INTERCEPTOR:
At the end of the enemy Movement phase, a weapon with the Interceptor special rule can be fired at any one unit that has arrived from reserve within its range and line of sight. tf this rule is used, the weapon cannot be fired in the next turn, but the firing model can shoot a different weapon if it has one.

so here a specific instance defining when a player can shoot in another players turn.

ASSAULT VEHICLE
Passengers disembarking from Access Points on a vehicle with this special rule can charge on the turn they do so, even on a turn that the vehicle was destroyed.

same thing as well. you can charge on a turn your vehicle is destroyed.

Turn being defined by player turn, RAW specifically says passengers assault on the turn they disembark from the vehicle, even on turns its destroyed. it gives a specific moment when a unit disembarking can declare a charge, specific trumps general rules correct?

This is exactly the same as 5th edition stating a model can assault after running if it has Fleet. This didnt allow you to assault after disembarking from a rhino, as the "cant" trumpts the "must". Here you cannot assault in your opponents turn - the rules specify you assault on your player turn - so this does not give you permission to do so.

Or, more appropriately, you may be able to charge, but only have permission to declare a charge on your turn.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
This is exactly the same as 5th edition stating a model can assault after running if it has Fleet. This didnt allow you to assault after disembarking from a rhino, as the "cant" trumpts the "must". Here you cannot assault in your opponents turn - the rules specify you assault on your player turn - so this does not give you permission to do so.

Or, more appropriately, you may be able to charge, but only have permission to declare a charge on your turn.

There is no rule saying you can't assault in your opponents turn, the only reason you normally can't is because there isn't permission for it built into the basic rule structure, that permission is granted by the assault vehicle rule though so you do have permission in that specific instance.

Drunkspleen wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:This is exactly the same as 5th edition stating a model can assault after running if it has Fleet. This didnt allow you to assault after disembarking from a rhino, as the "cant" trumpts the "must". Here you cannot assault in your opponents turn - the rules specify you assault on your player turn - so this does not give you permission to do so.

Or, more appropriately, you may be able to charge, but only have permission to declare a charge on your turn.

There is no rule saying you can't assault in your opponents turn, the only reason you normally can't is because there isn't permission for it built into the basic rule structure, that permission is granted by the assault vehicle rule though so you do have permission in that specific instance.

Read the assault rules.
Show permission to declare a charge in your opponents turn, regardless of the assault vehicle rules potentially allowing it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Drager wrote:
"Can charge on the turn they do so" What other phase do you charge in?

Your assault phase.

Just like the rues say.

Nothing in the assault vehicle rules overrides the main assault rules.

This is just plain silly.

The phrase in question "..can charge on the turn they do so, even on a turn that the vehicle was destroyed" is intended if the vehicle with one hull point left takes a dangerous terrain test, fails it, becomes immobilized and loses its last HP and wrecks. That unit may still assault.

You cannot charge in your opponents assault phase unless something in your codex specifically says so.

dufus0001 wrote:
This is just plain silly.

The phrase in question "..can charge on the turn they do so, even on a turn that the vehicle was destroyed" is intended if the vehicle with one hull point left takes a dangerous terrain test, fails it, becomes immobilized and loses its last HP and wrecks. That unit may still assault.

You cannot charge in your opponents assault phase unless something in your codex specifically says so.

well RAW says assault vehicle passengers can charge the turn they disembark, even if the vehicle wrecks.

was this RAI? no of course not. RAI was for passengers to be able to assault in their next assault phase, overriding the disembarking rules. the problem arises that one needed to specify what type of turn it speaks of. (assault vehicle needs to specify game turn instead of player turn and it works just fine)

It makes no sense that an Ork Trukk immobilizes going in, passengers disembark, and they assault normally but in contrast, if you glance it to death, the same orks cannot simply just jump out and charge you the next turn. so its obviously not intended to override dangerous terrain immobilize results (because it really wasn't that big of an issue, just bad luck if you happened to roll a 1) but meant to override disembarking rules (ones where trukks go down regular bolter fire now).

Paitryn, what you don't seem to understand is that you need permission to override every restriction. For example, normally you cannot assault when you Deep Strike. Boss Zagstruk overrides that. If his unit were to Run in the Shooting phase on the turn they come in, they would also need something to override the restriction on assaulting after running.

Normally you cannot assault after disembarking a vehicle. Assault Vehicle overrides that one restriction. Where do you get permission to override the restriction on assaulting in the other player's turn?

rigeld2 wrote:

Drunkspleen wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:This is exactly the same as 5th edition stating a model can assault after running if it has Fleet. This didnt allow you to assault after disembarking from a rhino, as the "cant" trumpts the "must". Here you cannot assault in your opponents turn - the rules specify you assault on your player turn - so this does not give you permission to do so.

Or, more appropriately, you may be able to charge, but only have permission to declare a charge on your turn.

There is no rule saying you can't assault in your opponents turn, the only reason you normally can't is because there isn't permission for it built into the basic rule structure, that permission is granted by the assault vehicle rule though so you do have permission in that specific instance.

Read the assault rules.
Show permission to declare a charge in your opponents turn, regardless of the assault vehicle rules potentially allowing it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Drager wrote:
"Can charge on the turn they do so" What other phase do you charge in?

Your assault phase.

Just like the rues say.

Nothing in the assault vehicle rules overrides the main assault rules.

You may not like the RAW but in this case it's very specifically allowed.

Dozer, what you don't seem to understand is that you need permission to override every restriction. For example, normally you cannot assault when you Deep Strike. Boss Zagstruk overrides that. If his unit were to Run in the Shooting phase on the turn they come in, they would also need something to override the restriction on assaulting after running.

Normally you cannot assault after disembarking a vehicle. Assault Vehicle overrides that one restriction. Where do you get permission to override the restriction on assaulting in the other player's turn?

 Dozer Blades wrote:
You may not like the RAW but in this case it's very specifically allowed.

Cite the specific allowance that allows charging in the enemy turn.
The assault vehicle rules don't state that they override the restriction that exists by it being the enemies turn.
They only override the restriction put in place by disembarking.

Edit: and you must not know me very well. I love the RAW.

It's rather silly but you cannot assault after your vehicle is wrecked in your subsequent assault phase. There is an exception for Assault Vehicles--in which case they can assault the turn in which it was wrecked--but the restriction still kicks in the next turn.

I'm very much convinced that RAI is not that case--but something you would want to talk over with your opponent before the game starts. I allow my opponents to assault the next turn after their Assault Vehicle is wrecked.

And I agree that's a valid way to read the intent. I'm not sure it's correct, but it's valid.

Happyjew wrote:
Dozer, what you don't seem to understand is that you need permission to override every restriction. For example, normally you cannot assault when you Deep Strike. Boss Zagstruk overrides that. If his unit were to Run in the Shooting phase on the turn they come in, they would also need something to override the restriction on assaulting after running.

Normally you cannot assault after disembarking a vehicle. Assault Vehicle overrides that one restriction. Where do you get permission to override the restriction on assaulting in the other player's turn?

"Passengers disembarking from Access Points on a vehicle with this special rule can charge on the turn they do so, even on a turn that the vehicle was destroved."

highlighted in bold. Zagstruck says you can assault the turn you deepstrike if you dont shoot in the shooting phase. Both are examples of permission to do something on a turn they are normally not allowed to do.

Turn is defined by player turn and not game turn, therefore they can charge the turn they disembark if the opposing player shoots the vehicle and destroys it in the shooting phase. The assault vehicle rule simply says you can charge the turn you disembark, not that it has to be Your turn, but just the turn they do so. Again turn is defined by player turn, not game turn.

I will go on record to say that I would never play it this way, its purely for the sake of argument, But RAW states they can assault in the opposing turn (if forced to disembark) but not in their turn (under disembarkation rules). The RAW was obviously written with game turn in mind vs player turn, but the writer used turn generically and therefore caused the confusion. Had assault vehicles ruled game turn instead of just turn, then none of this mess would be about.

The sentence you quoted only overrides the disembarking rules. You still haven't shown a rule that overrides the restriction that exists because it's not your turn.

rigeld2 wrote:
The sentence you quoted only overrides the disembarking rules. You still haven't shown a rule that overrides the restriction that exists because it's not your turn.

It specifically says I can charge the turn I disembark, EVEN ON THE TURN THE VEHICLE IS DESTROYED (caps for empasis). The caps section puts forth a specific instance in which i can assault that would normally not be allowed by the rules (as the turn my vehicle is destroyed is the opposing player turn not mine). as for the restriction:

Quote me the restriction, because honestly, I don't find one. Not even in the basic rules. The Assault phase section lays down no such restriction. (as it makes the assumption you can only charge in your assault phase) There is no phrase i find that says "unit may not assault in the opposing players turn" anywhere. The turn section lays out sequences, but also that it is "usually" done this way and has a big brick about execptions.

the assault vehicle rule granted me the ability to charge the turn i disembark, but no rule restricts me from not doing so in the opposing player turn. if you can find me a specific rule, I will be glad to retract my argument on the matter.

The assault phase rules tell you to choose units to make assault moves.
The context of those rules is the current players turn.

Remember, in a permissive rule set you must have permission to charge in your opponents turn. You don't. You have a rule overriding the disembarking restriction even on the turn the vehicle was destroyed.

Hey Paitryn--here's how it flows;

Page 9:
"Whenever a rule refers to 'a turn' it always means 'player turn' unless it specifically refers to a 'game turn'"

Page 79:
"After disembarking, models can shoot, counting as having moved, or choose to Run in their subsequent Shooting phase, but cannot declare a charge in their subsequent Assault phase"

Page 80:
"Wrecked. The passengers must immediately disembark in their usual manner (see page 79), save that they must end their move wholly within 3" rather than 6"."

Page 33:
"Assault Vehicle. Passengers disembarking from Access Points on a vehicle with this special rule can charge on the turn they do so, even on a turn that a vehicle is destroyed"


Scenario 1:
So, let's say you move your Land Raider up and a Necron player strips it of hull points making a wreck.

Disembark per the page 80 rule.
Your opponent continues his turn.
During my turn, I cannot declare a charge with my Terminators--as the vehicle was not destroyed this turn (Remember, it's always Player unless the rule says Game). Thus, I still suffer the disembarked restriction per page 79.


Scenario 2:
So, let's say you dash your Dark Eldar Raider forward and fail a difficult terrain test--making the vehicle a wreck.

Disembark per the page 80 rule.
Normally I would suffer the restricted disembarkation rules per page 79----HOWEVER
The Assault Rule kicks in, as this is the turn (Player turn) in which it was destroyed--which allows me to declare a charge.




Now is this intent? Nope--I'm as sure as I can be it is not. Is it RAW? Unfortunately, yes. Do I allow my opponents to assault after they disembark from an Assault Vehicle if it was wrecked last turn? Yep! But if someone wanted me to play it RAW and I lost my Assault Vehicle, I would be forced to agree that it was RAW.

But I do have permission to charge in my opponents turn. See the part where it says "even on a turn the vehicle is destroyed?"

Again, since my vehicle gets destroyed on my opposing players turn, I disembark, the rules say I can charge that turn. I really don't see how it cant grant permission due to the fact that turn is defined by the player turn and the turn my vehicle is destroyed is my opposing players turn and not my own. That wording is permission to do so if I ever heard it.

I'll agree that you normally cannot charge in the opposing player turn, however the rule specifically mentions a scenario in which I can.

You can charge when you disembark: agreed, that seems normal.

Even on the turn the vehicle is destroyed: Huh? I cant charge the turn the vehicle is destroyed normally because its my opposing players turn, how does this apply? It just gave me permission to do something I could not do under normal rules circumstance.

It could imply immobilized from difficult terrain, sure, but 1 hp loss is generally not going to wreck the vehicle. And if it were to imply that, the rules set is entirely too specific of an instance when it doesn't fix its own inherit problems. (such as not being able to assault in your own assault phase.)

While I agree this isnt RAI, my RAW interpretation seems to differ when it comes to how the rule is worded. The last part of the ruleset is completely unneccessary because assault vehicles rule you can charge after disembarking, exploding vehicles state you disembark so the two go hand in hand. So by adding in the section, they added a specific set of circumstances in which a player can charge when normally not allowed to even by assault vehicle rules.

I'm well aware of the permissive ruleset, but at the same time my RAW interpretation seems to permit that. Again, never intend to actually play it that way, but for sake of argument I like to play devil's advocate sometimes.

You're attempting to override 2 restrictions on assaulting (not your turn, disembarking) with one sentence that doesn't spell that out.

They included that phrase as a specific change from 5th edition where if your assault vehicle popped you could not assault.

Again, Assault Vehicle only ever deals with removing the disembark restriction and never addresses the fact that you are not given permission to declare an assault in your opponents turn.

 AgeOfEgos wrote:
Hey Paitryn--here's how it flows;

I'm aware of that scenario (one I have yet to see even occur- you only lose one HP for getting immobilized), but thats just one interpretation. It simply states that on a turn the vehicle is destroyed i can charge. that also includes opposing turns. again wording is unnecessary, but its there to argue about.