Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Yes, because in the middle of a speech about the public good and its importance to private industry he would clearly go and make the ad absurdum point that no one built anything ever, except government.
This might make some logical sense if Obama had any record of actually trying to nationalize industry, or otherwise being an actual socialist. He hasn't, though, and it's just a ridiculous contention that is being deliberately dishonest.
whembly wrote: I just took umbrage to that comment... and the whole context of it made it worst.
Oh, so you think you built everything in your life yourself with no help from anyone else?
How the hell is it offensive to say "you had help from society"? You did. Trying to claim otherwise is delusional.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/08/30 16:00:52
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
In many ways, yes. If you fail a business venture, society suffers from that. If you have a horrible upbringing and commit criminal acts, society suffers from that. Just as society benefits from your success (usually). And in many cases, people are glad to lay the blame on society-- often to try to get away from accepting their own responsibility-- even as they're trying to avoid giving credit and taking responsibility for all the success they've had, even if it's wholly unmerited and based mostly on luck alone.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/30 16:05:24
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
whembly wrote: I just took umbrage to that comment... and the whole context of it made it worst.
Oh, so you think you built everything in your life yourself with no help from anyone else?
How the hell is it offensive to say "you had help from society"? You did. Trying to claim otherwise is delusional.
So... if I fail at whatever I do... does society "share" that?
In most modern societies: yes.
That is why you have social protection programs like welfare, global healthcare and unemployment payments, so that society "shares" the burden from your personal failures.
Frazzled wrote: SEC actions are public. Do you have any proof of SEC actions against Romney or Bain related to whatever the hell you are supposedly accusing him of?
A reminder if you lie here you may open yourself to legal liability. Just a reminder.
It's not an accusation, Romney is just a lying sack of
Romeny states that he left Bain in 1999 to keep from being blamed for costing many people their jobs, and robbing them of their pensions. He then tells the SEC that he is the sole stockholder, ceo and cheif executive of bain until 2002, while still getting a paycheck from bain.
No one is accusing him of lying to the government, they're just pointing out that he is lying.
Because he either lied to the government (a felony) or he's lying to us. Either way, how can you take anything he says seriously when he's a proven liar?
And we are also just supposed to take his word he's paying his taxes.
A vote for Romney is a vote that its ok to lie to the american people.
Because he either lied to the government (a felony) or he's lying to us. Either way, how can you take anything he says seriously when he's a proven liar?
And we are also just supposed to take his word he's paying his taxes.
A vote for Romney is a vote that its ok to lie to the american people.
Careful now. This cuts both ways
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
Melissia wrote: In many ways, yes. If you fail a business venture, society suffers from that. If you have a horrible upbringing and commit criminal acts, society suffers from that. Just as society benefits from your success (usually). And in many cases, people are glad to lay the blame on society-- often to try to get away from accepting their own responsibility-- even as they're trying to avoid giving credit and taking responsibility for all the success they've had, even if it's wholly unmerited and based mostly on luck alone.
I don't "owe" society anymore than they "owe" me.
I've paid my TAXES that goes to social services and infrastructure, and that's fine. Isn't that what we're supposed to do?
But let me be concise here:
My successes areMINE.
My failures are MINE.
Whatever disadvantage I may have, I will NOT blame others... I will work HARDER.
Everyone, should have the same opportunity to achieve whatever it is they want.
And I don't want the supervision and sanctimony of the central planners (<--- government).
Obama and the current Democatic parties (and some Republicans to be fair) are not Communist or Socialist... they're STATIST.
It's like this old email chain that goes around during the presidential elections (haven't seen it yet, but its around) and it goes like this:
A young woman was about to finish her first year of college. She considered herself to be a very liberal Democrat, but
her father was a staunch Republican. One day she was challenging her father on his beliefs and his opposition to high
taxes and excessive welfare programs. He stopped her and asked how she was doing in school.
She answered that she had a 4.0 GPA, but it was really tough. She had to study all the time and never had time to go
out and party. She didn't have time for a boyfriend and didn't really have many college friends because of spending all
her time studying. On top of that, the part-time job her father insisted she keep left absolutely no time for anything else.
He asked, 'How is your friend Mary?' She replied that Mary was barely getting by. She had a 2.0 GPA, never studied,
but was very popular on campus, didn't have a job, and went to all the parties. She was always complaining about not
having any money, but didn't want to work. Why, she often didn't show up for classes because she was hung over.
Dad then asked his daughter why she didn't go to the Dean's office and request that 1.0 be taken off her 4.0 and given
it to her friend who only had a 2.0. That way they would both have a respectable 3.0 GPA. Then, she could also give
her friend half the money she'd earned from her job so that her friend would no longer be broke. The daughter angrily
fired back, 'That wouldn't be fair. I worked really hard for my grades and money, and Mary just loafs. Why should her
laziness and irresponsibility be rewarded with half of what I've worked for?' The father slowly smiled and said,
'Welcome to the Republican Party'."
So he said he left Bain to keep from being blamed for robbing them of their pensions? It would be interesting to see the clip of him leaving Bain to avoid blame for robbing them of pensions.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Frazzled wrote: So he said he left Bain to keep from being blamed for robbing them of their pensions? It would be interesting to see the clip of him leaving Bain to avoid blame for robbing them of pensions.
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
whembly wrote: I just took umbrage to that comment... and the whole context of it made it worst.
Oh, so you think you built everything in your life yourself with no help from anyone else?
How the hell is it offensive to say "you had help from society"? You did. Trying to claim otherwise is delusional.
So... if I fail at whatever I do... does society "share" that?
In most modern societies: yes.
That is why you have social protection programs like welfare, global healthcare and unemployment payments, so that society "shares" the burden from your personal failures.
I reject this premise.
It's one thing to have social safety nets. Those are fine as gak happens and EVERYONE pays something into this... because we're a wealthy/generous society. Not because we're "supposed" to do it.
whembly wrote: I just took umbrage to that comment... and the whole context of it made it worst.
Oh, so you think you built everything in your life yourself with no help from anyone else?
How the hell is it offensive to say "you had help from society"? You did. Trying to claim otherwise is delusional.
So... if I fail at whatever I do... does society "share" that?
Are the unemployment numbers high because everybody is lazy, or are they high because business people failed?
So yes, society does "share" that.
-Your employees loose their jobs.
-City/County/State gets less sales tax because your business failed.
-City/County/State/Federal gets less payroll tax because your business failed.
-Every business you purchased supplies from suffers because your business failed.
-Their employees now suffer and their city/county/state/federal taxes are reduced because your business failed.
-Your business is now vacant, decreasing the property values of the other buildings and offices around it, so they suffer because your business failed.
-If you now collect unemployment, then everybody pays you because your business failed.
If I was an employee of anybody who says that, I would quit and let him continue to build his success on his own, since clearly I am not a factor in it.
Frazzled wrote: So he said he left Bain to keep from being blamed for robbing them of their pensions? It would be interesting to see the clip of him leaving Bain to avoid blame for robbing them of pensions.
go back a few pages.
Please show me the clip where he specifically said he bailed on Bain to avoid blame for robbing them of pensions. I'll wait. I have a book.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
never made that claim, but it is further proof of why america is deservedly ranked 37th in health care.
Your 110% sure he lied on paying taxes but your unsure if he was responsible for Mrs Soptic death. Yet you point out our healthcare. So since she wasn't covered by medical insurance due to the factory closing is it or is it not Romney fault.
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
Its a bank book for a company. Very boring. On the positive I have Gates of Fire on my Christmas list. Sounds like a love story.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
never made that claim, but it is further proof of why america is deservedly ranked 37th in health care.
Your 110% sure he lied on paying taxes but your unsure if he was responsible for Mrs Soptic death. Yet you point out our healthcare. So since she wasn't covered by medical insurance due to the factory closing is it or is it not Romney fault.
Relevance? You brought her up, state your case. What does she have to do with anything about how Romney is a proven liar and a hypocrite?
Its a bank book for a company. Very boring. On the positive I have Gates of Fire on my Christmas list. Sounds like a love story.
I don't think books that are mandatory reading at Marine School are love stories, sounds good.
Frazzled's kind of love stories.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Out of respect for all the funny things that Ronald Reagan said and the warm affection he had for the UK, I voted Republican non US citizen Plus, it adds some balance to the poll.
Spoiler:
I'd prefer my payment to be in the form of plastic minis. Some flames of war British paratroopers (late war) will suffice
And I'm reading a lot of American history right now.
Apparently, a bunch of guys didn't like being taxed, so they fought a war and defeated some redcoats. Afterwards, THEY started taxing people, so another bunch of guys decided to fight back, but the bunch of guys decided to fight the other bunch of guys, and the other bunch of guys won and got their taxes passed into law except they were bluecoats and not redcoats. Very confusing
Anyway, roll on november.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
whembly wrote: I just took umbrage to that comment... and the whole context of it made it worst.
Oh, so you think you built everything in your life yourself with no help from anyone else?
How the hell is it offensive to say "you had help from society"? You did. Trying to claim otherwise is delusional.
So... if I fail at whatever I do... does society "share" that?
Are the unemployment numbers high because everybody is lazy, or are they high because business people failed?
So yes, society does "share" that.
-Your employees loose their jobs.
-City/County/State gets less sales tax because your business failed.
-City/County/State/Federal gets less payroll tax because your business failed.
-Every business you purchased supplies from suffers because your business failed.
-Their employees now suffer and their city/county/state/federal taxes are reduced because your business failed.
-Your business is now vacant, decreasing the property values of the other buildings and offices around it, so they suffer because your business failed.
-If you now collect unemployment, then everybody pays you because your business failed.
You're missing my point.
EVERYONE pays into these social services via taxation. So EVERYONE can use the services when the gak hits the fan.
But society isn't the one spilling blood, guts, sweat and private resources to ensure that a business is successful.
Society provides the framework to allow a potential business to thrive. Which therefore due to this increased business the society itself reaps the benefits.
If I was an employee of anybody who says that, I would quit and let him continue to build his success on his own, since clearly I am not a factor in it.
Wait... so, you didn't want a paycheck from your employer? Because, if you provided services for free, then yes, I'd leave that employer too.
Funny there's mention of that fact that my failures are mine too...
Relevance? You brought her up, state your case. What does she have to do with anything about how Romney is a proven liar and a hypocrite?
See how far your conviction goes against Romney. If your accusing him of not paying taxes for ten years then he's a felon is he not. By my perception your not far off from calling him a murderer yet.
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
Apparently, a bunch of guys didn't like being taxed, so they fought a war and defeated some redcoats. Afterwards, THEY started taxing people, so another bunch of guys decided to fight back, but the bunch of guys decided to fight the other bunch of guys, and the other bunch of guys won and got their taxes passed into law except they were bluecoats and not redcoats. Very confusing
Yes, they felt that being British subjects they were entitled to the same liberties as other British subjects (i.e. in the metropolitan). When these were declined they chose instead to call themselves "Americans".
Unnessesarily extravegant word of the week award goes to jcress410 for this:
jcress wrote:Seem super off topic to complain about epistemology on a thread about tactics.
whembly wrote: I just took umbrage to that comment... and the whole context of it made it worst.
Oh, so you think you built everything in your life yourself with no help from anyone else?
How the hell is it offensive to say "you had help from society"? You did. Trying to claim otherwise is delusional.
So... if I fail at whatever I do... does society "share" that?
Are the unemployment numbers high because everybody is lazy, or are they high because business people failed?
So yes, society does "share" that.
-Your employees loose their jobs.
-City/County/State gets less sales tax because your business failed.
-City/County/State/Federal gets less payroll tax because your business failed.
-Every business you purchased supplies from suffers because your business failed.
-Their employees now suffer and their city/county/state/federal taxes are reduced because your business failed.
-Your business is now vacant, decreasing the property values of the other buildings and offices around it, so they suffer because your business failed.
-If you now collect unemployment, then everybody pays you because your business failed.
You're missing my point..
I thought your point was that society doesn't share your failures, so I pointed out how society does suffer if you fail.
But I think you made it pretty clear that you think that:
1) Every successful business is only successful because of you.
2) Employees are just there to collect a paycheck and don't make a business successful, they are just doing what they are paid to do.
3) Even though society and government had nothing to do with your success, they better be there to pick up the pieces if you fail because that is their job.
