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nosferatu1001 wrote:
I see you havent read the Errata then, as they have changed what "Daemon Weapon" is defined as.

You are making an implicit leap that the "instead of +1" has any meaning rules wise anymore. It doesnt.

Stop with the insults, as they make responding tedious.

No insults were given. Please don't create strawmen to distract from the fact that you are wrong.

FAQ says:
Page 93 – Daemon Weapons, Daemon Weapon (Lords with no
Mark of Chaos).
Replace the last sentence with the following profile:
Range S AP Type
- +1 2 Melee, Daemon
Weapon,Two-handed

Your "changes" don't exist. Unless you want to actually quote the changes that makes your point. Unless you can't because, as I said, they don't exist.

It saying instead can also be an argument in favor of him being ap3 as it means that the weapon is explicitly different. There is no reason typhus would have his own entry about his force weapon while abby would not if things change.

Manreaper is a unique weapon. It has special rules. They needed to specify that it got its Mark of Nurgle AND the other special rules.

Drach'nyen is nothing but a Daemon weapon, Talon of Horus is nothing but a Lightning Claw. BUT, the combination of the two give him his benefits. There is nothing to change since his weapons are still what they are.

 Captain Antivas wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I see you havent read the Errata then, as they have changed what "Daemon Weapon" is defined as.

You are making an implicit leap that the "instead of +1" has any meaning rules wise anymore. It doesnt.

Stop with the insults, as they make responding tedious.

No insults were given. Please don't create strawmen to distract from the fact that you are wrong.

FAQ says:
Page 93 – Daemon Weapons, Daemon Weapon (Lords with no
Mark of Chaos).
Replace the last sentence with the following profile:
Range S AP Type
- +1 2 Melee, Daemon
Weapon,Two-handed

Your "changes" don't exist. Unless you want to actually quote the changes that makes your point. Unless you can't because, as I said, they don't exist.

I didnt create a strawman, as i did not create an easily defeated argument and then defeat it> Id avoid using terms you dont understand, it doesnt help your argument.

You avoided quoting the new Daemon Weapon rule, didnt you. Abaddon is not defined as a Lord, so guess what - he doesnt follow the rules for a Lord. Care to present some rules saying the contrary, or will you just concede now?

 Captain Antivas wrote:
Manreaper is a unique weapon. It has special rules. They needed to specify that it got its Mark of Nurgle AND the other special rules.

Drach'nyen is nothing but a Daemon weapon, Talon of Horus is nothing but a Lightning Claw. BUT, the combination of the two give him his benefits. There is nothing to change since his weapons are still what they are.

Are you saying that Drach and the Talon arent unique weapons? They have rules beyond the normal daemon wepaon rules in conjunction. That means they need their own ruleset. This is a permissive rules game. That means that since Drach and the Talon have different rules form the normal daemon weapon, they need explicit permission to be Ap2. Do they have it? No. Therefor you dont get to be AP2.

 Captain Antivas wrote:
Manreaper is a unique weapon. It has special rules. They needed to specify that it got its Mark of Nurgle AND the other special rules.

Drach'nyen is nothing but a Daemon weapon, Talon of Horus is nothing but a Lightning Claw. BUT, the combination of the two give him his benefits. There is nothing to change since his weapons are still what they are.

Please find rules stating that the Talon is a LC. Oh wait, you are still making rules up.

It is a unique power weapon, as Abaddon is NOT a Chaos Lord without a mark of chaos; he is NOT a Chaos Lord at all, rules wise.
Try again

Does this mean you are implying that the death screamer is also ap2? If so why was this not mentioned in the Faq.

Abbadons weapon is still a power weapon, which still has to follow all the rules for power weapons in the BrB.

It has its own unique rules that are in the codex, yes granted, but these rules still have to follow the unusual power weapon rule in the BrB. Due to deamon weapons being power weapons unless otherwise stated in the Faq, which abbadons deamon weapon is not. It is stated to be a power weapon.

Just to add from the english Faq:

Q:Is abbadons Deamon sword Drach'nyen a power weapon and, if
the d6 roll for his extra attacks is a 1, does the weapon rebel
as described on page 93?
A: Yes to both questions

So there you have it, its a power weapon which means ap3 for Mr Abbadon.

Abby's rules specify that he has a DW, and that the DW gives double strength instead of the normal +1. The normal +1 is due to it being an unmarked daemon weapon. Unmarked daemon weapons are AP2.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I didnt create a strawman, as i did not create an easily defeated argument and then defeat it> Id avoid using terms you dont understand, it doesnt help your argument.

How does it feel to be accused of something you didn't do? Yeah, so please don't do it to me.

You avoided quoting the new Daemon Weapon rule, didnt you. Abaddon is not defined as a Lord, so guess what - he doesnt follow the rules for a Lord. Care to present some rules saying the contrary, or will you just concede now?

There is no new Daemon Weapon rule. Or are you referring to:
Daemon Weapon: This weapon gives its wielder +D6 Attacks in
close combat. Roll the dice at the beginning of each Fight subphase
the wielder is in close combat. If the result is a 1, the
model may not make any Attacks in this sub-phase and suffers
one Wound with no armour saves allowed.

This changes nothing because Abaddon is a Chaos Lord. Only Chaos Lords have Marks, and he has all of them. How exactly is he not a Lord? Not to mention, I ask again. Where does he get his +1 str from then?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
Are you saying that Drach and the Talon arent unique weapons? They have rules beyond the normal daemon wepaon rules in conjunction. That means they need their own ruleset. This is a permissive rules game. That means that since Drach and the Talon have different rules form the normal daemon weapon, they need explicit permission to be Ap2. Do they have it? No. Therefor you dont get to be AP2.

The weapons are what they are. He has a special rule that says he gets extra stuff. The weapons remain unchanged.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Captain Antivas wrote:
Manreaper is a unique weapon. It has special rules. They needed to specify that it got its Mark of Nurgle AND the other special rules.

Drach'nyen is nothing but a Daemon weapon, Talon of Horus is nothing but a Lightning Claw. BUT, the combination of the two give him his benefits. There is nothing to change since his weapons are still what they are.

Please find rules stating that the Talon is a LC. Oh wait, you are still making rules up.

It is a unique power weapon, as Abaddon is NOT a Chaos Lord without a mark of chaos; he is NOT a Chaos Lord at all, rules wise.
Try again

The fact that he gets to re-roll failed wounds, and it looks like a lightning claw. Its called reading between the lines. You should try it sometime. Like I said, basic English comprehension. And, he is a Chaos Lord. You have no rules quote that he is not. Unless you are claiming he is a Sorcerer or a Daemon Prince?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 GimlisonofGloin wrote:
Does this mean you are implying that the death screamer is also ap2?

No I am not. Why would I be? Where did you get that? Or did you miss the part where I specifically said it, being the weapon for the Lords with the MoT, is the only Daemon Weapon that is NOT AP2?

This changes nothing because Abaddon is a Chaos Lord. Only Chaos Lords have Marks, and he has all of them. How exactly is he not a Lord? Not to mention, I ask again. Where does he get his +1 str from then?

If we use this logic and combine all the marks he has, then it must mean that Abbadon also has poison, 2d6 extra attacks and instant death rules. Why not just say that he shoot with it aswell so he can benefit from the Tzeentch mark.

Because the rule specifically says he gets +1 str from his weapon, which is an ability given from the Unmarked Daemon Weapon. Only Lords can get Daemon Weapons, so he must be a Lord. Your way would be breaking the rules. He combined the Marks, but his rule says he counts as having no Mark in terms of his Daemon Weapon.

Just to point out the Faq question once again.

Q:Is abbadons Deamon SWORD Drach'nyen a POWER WEAPON and, if
the d6 roll for his extra attacks is a 1, does the weapon rebel
as described on page 93?
A: Yes to both questions

I think this clears it up, its a Deamon weapon with the rules for a power sword, so ap3, not ap2.

It is a Daemon Weapon with rules for a power weapon? Are you serious? That makes no sense whatsoever. Daemon weapons have their own rules, one of which is that it IS A POWER WEAPON. Once again, where does Abaddon get his +1 str from?

Not to mention the only weapon that rebels is A DAEMON WEAPON. Your illogical and fallacious arguments defy your valiant attempt to be right.

Please make every effort to keep this polite if not friendly, folks.

Leave personal comments and criticisms out if you want to retain your ability to post.

 Captain Antivas wrote:
Daemon weapons have their own rules, one of which is that it IS A POWER WEAPON.

You said it your self, it is a power weapon. As a power weapon it must follow the rules from the BrB, unless stated in the Faq, which it is not.

Once again, where does Abaddon get his +1 str from?

He does not get +1str, he gets double str.

Your illogical and fallacious arguments defy your valiant attempt to be right.

If all you can do is insult people about a disagreement then maybe you should not be posting on a discussion forum. Please treat people with some respect and do not insult their intelligence,

Antivas, you dont read between the lines when you are debating RAW. That is how you create arguments that are just plain wrong. The talon is not a l-claw, and the sword has rules that are different from every other daemon weapon. This means that THEY ARE NOT THE SAME. DIFFERENT MEANS NOT THE SAME. Contrary to popular belief, things that are different are in fact, not the same. It means they need a whole new instruction manual. You cannot say a carrot is a carrot and a hemlock is a carrot because you will end up dead. Hemlock is not a carrot, it is poison. Just because Drach/Talon walk like a daemon weapon does not mean they talk like one. Find where it specifically says Drach/Talon is ap2 otherwise it isint.

 GimlisonofGloin wrote:
You said it your self, it is a power weapon. As a power weapon it must follow the rules from the BrB, unless stated in the Faq, which it is not.

It is a Daemon Weapon. You follow the rules for Daemon Weapons. Codex>BRB.

He does not get +1str, he gets double str.

"Daemon Weapon that doubles his Strength (to Strength 8, as shown in his profile) instead of the normal +1"

Where does the Normal +1 come from?

If all you can do is insult people about a disagreement then maybe you should not be posting on a discussion forum. Please treat people with some respect and do not insult their intelligence,

No one insulted your intelligence. I said that your arguments are fallacious and illogical. I never once said YOU were, but the arguments you are putting forth are. Contrary to popular belief there is a difference.

It says it by telling us that...

A) It's a daemon weapon
+
B) It gives him double strength instead of the usual +1.

There is only one kind of daemon weapon which gives +1 strength, so the implication there is clear. It otherwise follows the rules for that DW, except for the specified exception of the different strength modifier. This leaves in place the Two Handed property, the struggle for control rule, the d6 bonus attacks, and the AP2.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
Antivas, you dont read between the lines when you are debating RAW. That is how you create arguments that are just plain wrong. The talon is not a l-claw, and the sword has rules that are different from every other daemon weapon. This means that THEY ARE NOT THE SAME. DIFFERENT MEANS NOT THE SAME. Contrary to popular belief, things that are different are in fact, not the same. It means they need a whole new instruction manual. You cannot say a carrot is a carrot and a hemlock is a carrot because you will end up dead. Hemlock is not a carrot, it is poison. Just because Drach/Talon walk like a daemon weapon does not mean they talk like one. Find where it specifically says Drach/Talon is ap2 otherwise it isint.

You have to read between the lines to understand the meaning of the words. My arguments are not wrong, they are supported by rules that you refuse to accept. Like I said, the weapons are not the source of the special rules. Even if you want to argue that the Talon is not a l-claw it is still not the source of his special rule. His special rule comes from the two weapons together. The combination of these two artefacts gives him the power, not the artefacts themselves. There are 5 types of Daemon Weapons, not 6. 5. No Mark, MoT, MoK, MoS, MoN. Not a 6th magical one.

His special rule comes from the two weapons together.

This. Right here. It is no longer a normal daemon weapon. No daemon weapn is 2 weaopns put togeather. It has its own special stuff. If there is any crux in your argument (and there are lots, belive me), this is the biggest.

His daemon weapon does things other daemon weapons do not. Since there is no longer a "Daemon Weapon" blanket rule, you must individually define everything identified as a daemon weapon, otherwise they fall to other PW interpretations.

Typhus has his own "Special" daemon weapon. It has its own special rules and was specially defined. Abbadons needs to have the same for anthing special to apply other than whats black and white in the codex.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:

His special rule comes from the two weapons together.

This. Right here. It is no longer a normal daemon weapon. No daemon weapn is 2 weaopns put togeather. It has its own special stuff. If there is any crux in your argument (and there are lots, belive me), this is the biggest.

His daemon weapon does things other daemon weapons do not. Since there is no longer a "Daemon Weapon" blanket rule, you must individually define everything identified as a daemon weapon, otherwise they fall to other PW interpretations.

Typhus has his own "Special" daemon weapon. It has its own special rules and was specially defined. Abbadons needs to have the same for anthing special to apply other than whats black and white in the codex.

No, just no. The two weapons do not combine to make a super awesome Daemon Weapon. They are wielded separately and when he wields them together, one in each hand, he gets a bonus. He has two weapons, not one. One is a Daemon Weapon, the other is not.

Again, where does the +1 str come from?

Antivas, the +1 stregnth is irrelivant because its rules are DIFFERENT!!!! When 1 thing changes, unless otherwise stated, everything changes. Why does every other daemon weapon other than the tzeench, (even character specific) have a new entry and abby does not? Because he is the same. He has a special weapon and just because his weapon has a rule that the normal one dosent, that dosent mean they are the same. It means they are....

Wait for it......

DIFFERENT!

And in refrence to your question about the +1, its because no one knew what mark to use because abby had them all.

 Mannahnin wrote:
It says it by telling us that...

A) It's a daemon weapon
+
B) It gives him double strength instead of the usual +1.

There is only one kind of daemon weapon which gives +1 strength, so the implication there is clear. It otherwise follows the rules for that DW, except for the specified exception of the different strength modifier. This leaves in place the Two Handed property, the struggle for control rule, the d6 bonus attacks, and the AP2.

But the unmarked Deamon weapon does not allow for a re-roll to wound, which would suggest it has unique rules, of its own, that have nothing to do with the normal Deamon weapon rules.


Besides if we were to read between the lines and look at the model, it would suggest that it is impossible for him to hold in two hands, as his LC (talon) would prevent him from doing so.

If we look in between the lines and look at his model his armor wouldnt allow him to move so he would be a useless stationary model too

 GimlisonofGloin wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
It says it by telling us that...
A) It's a daemon weapon
+
B) It gives him double strength instead of the usual +1.

There is only one kind of daemon weapon which gives +1 strength, so the implication there is clear. It otherwise follows the rules for that DW, except for the specified exception of the different strength modifier. This leaves in place the Two Handed property, the struggle for control rule, the d6 bonus attacks, and the AP2.

But the unmarked Deamon weapon does not allow for a re-roll to wound, which would suggest it has unique rules, of its own, that have nothing to do with the normal Deamon weapon rules.

Whence do you, then, derive that he has +1d6 attacks, and that on a roll of 1 he does not attack but insteaf suffers a wound?

 Captain Antivas wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I didnt create a strawman, as i did not create an easily defeated argument and then defeat it> Id avoid using terms you dont understand, it doesnt help your argument.

How does it feel to be accused of something you didn't do? Yeah, so please don't do it to me.

Except you did level insults directed at me, by claiming i had never read the rules - which you then went on to partially quote.. I, on the other hand, did not create a strawman.

 Captain Antivas wrote:

There is no new Daemon Weapon rule. Or are you referring to:
Daemon Weapon: This weapon gives its wielder +D6 Attacks in
close combat. Roll the dice at the beginning of each Fight subphase
the wielder is in close combat. If the result is a 1, the
model may not make any Attacks in this sub-phase and suffers
one Wound with no armour saves allowed.

Yes, you see that special rule they have given to all Daemon Weapons? Under Type? Called Daemon Weapon? Not sure how you missed it.

 Captain Antivas wrote:
This changes nothing because Abaddon is a Chaos Lord

Please find a rule stating Abaddon is a Lord. He is not listed under Chaos Lord in the unit entry, and nowhere in the rules you claim I have never read is he stated to be a Chaos Lord, so by what RULE are you claiming he is a chaos Lord?

Page and paragraph, otherwise you have conceded.

 Captain Antivas wrote:
. Only Chaos Lords have Marks,

Apparently you cannot read the codex, as Daemon Princes and Sorcerors also have marks. If you disagree please give a page reference proving that the entries i can see in my codex, which i have owned since 2007 dont exist....

 Captain Antivas wrote:
and he has all of them.

No, he has the MoCA, which is not the 4 individual marks. Try again.

 Captain Antivas wrote:
How exactly is he not a Lord?

Because Chaos Lord is a specific Unit, and he is neither listed under the Chaos Lord entry nor do his rules state he is a Chaos Lord. If you disagree please provide a RULE page and para stating otherwise

Something you have singularly failed to do so far.

 Captain Antivas wrote:
Not to mention, I ask again. Where does he get his +1 str from then?

He doesnt, as he isnt a Chaos Lord without a Mark of Chaos. He isnt a chaos lord AT ALL.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Captain Antivas wrote:
Manreaper is a unique weapon. It has special rules. They needed to specify that it got its Mark of Nurgle AND the other special rules.

Drach'nyen is nothing but a Daemon weapon, Talon of Horus is nothing but a Lightning Claw. BUT, the combination of the two give him his benefits. There is nothing to change since his weapons are still what they are.

Please find rules stating that the Talon is a LC. Oh wait, you are still making rules up.

It is a unique power weapon, as Abaddon is NOT a Chaos Lord without a mark of chaos; he is NOT a Chaos Lord at all, rules wise.
Try again

The fact that he gets to re-roll failed wounds, and it looks like a lightning claw. Its called reading between the lines.

Because that is part of the classification of a daemon weapon whereas AP2 is not. The classification of a daemon wepon is unique power weapon. Markless daemon weapon V abbadon daemon weapon is the argument, not abbadon daemon weapon V daemon weapon in general.

(In response to mann)

As a reminder, personal criticisms leveled at other people's reading comprehension or the like are not permitted, and if you make them, you will not like the consequences.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
Because that is part of the classification of a daemon weapon whereas AP2 is not. The classification of a daemon wepon is unique power weapon. Markless daemon weapon V abbadon daemon weapon is the argument, not abbadon daemon weapon V daemon weapon in general.

(In response to mann)

I still think the "instead of the usual +1 strength" clearly implies that Drach'Nyen follows the rules for the unmarked DW except where otherwise specified.

Whence do you, then, derive that he has +1d6 attacks,

This is in his entry in the codex

and that on a roll of 1 he does not attack but insteaf suffers a wound?

This is in the Faq


Therefore it suggests that it is a deamon weapon with its own unique abilities that are not part of the unmarked deamon weapons rules. It just follows all the normal rules for deamon weapons which are power weapons.

What are unique power weapons ap? 3, yes 3. So the Big A has ap3.

Codex: CSM:
"Abaddon counts as equiped with a Daemon Weapon that doubles his Strength (to Strength 8, as shown in his profile) instead of the normal +1."

Errata: CSM:
"Page 93 – Daemon Weapons, Daemon Weapon (Lords with no
Mark of Chaos).
Replace the last sentence with the following profile:"

I don't know why you are debating this, it is obvious he counts as AP 2. All this talk of Marks, Chaos Lords and unique power weapons has absolutely nothing to do with this.

Besides its the deadliest weapon in the galaxy, certainly more potent than a Daemon Weapon that some nobody Chaos Lord has.