Focus Fire and Look Out Sir! Interaction

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**Ghenghis Jon**

Scenario: a unit has 1 character in the open, the closest model behind trees with 5+ cover, and the rest behind a building that would provide 4+ cover. During the Shooting phase, an enemy unit Focus Fires on the character in the open, can see the model in 5+ cover , but cannot see any of the models behind the building. Several wounds are put on the character. He makes several Look Out Sir rolls. How do the Focus Fire and Look Out Sir rules interact?

1. Would the model in 5+ cover be able to use it's cover save against the Focus Fire?
2. If the closest model is removed as a casualty, are the remaining Look Out Sir! wounds allocated to the next nearest model out of Line of Sight?
3. If the model in 5+ cover was allowed to retain that save, could the models out of Line of Sight claim 4+ cover?
4. If they are not allocated to the nearest model out of Line of Sight, what happens to them and why?

Rulebook, Page 15, Allocate Unsaved Wounds and Remove Casualties: ', Next, allocate an unsaved Wound to the enemy model closest to the firing unit.'

Rulebook, Page 18: Focus Fire: 'Your Opponent can only allocate Wounds to Models with a cover save equal to or worse (i.e. a higher value) than the value stated'

Rulebook FAQ, Page 1: Shooting Phase: Look Out, Sir!: 'Determine which model in the unit is closest to the character, and resolve the wound against that model instead'

Since wound allocation during the Shooting phase is now an algorithm instead of at the discretion of the players, I say that you cannot allocate a wound to a model with a worse cover save using Look Out, Sir! when the firing unit has utilized Focus Fire.

**jms40k**

Since Look Out, Sir! is a reallocation of wounds, I would argue that you actually wouldn't be able to make an attempt for LOS in this instance. No model in better than "out in the open" saves can have wounds allocated to it with a Focus Fire like the one you described.

**hisdudeness**

Except, LOS tells us we can re-allocate to the closest model with no other limitations. Additionally, since cover does not effect the LOS roll I see no reason Focus Fire should be taken into account.

From another angle, LOS is the defending players roll and would not be effected by the attacking players use of Focus Fire.

**McRage**

I've had this come up in a game I have played as well. We ruled it that the model taking the wound instead of the character were counted as taking the place of the character thus running out of cover to protect his leader. So, any focus fire wound would never be counted as higher save than the declared focus fire limit.

If no focus fire is declared they all count their cover saves as normal. Unless los i alocated to a model with no los to the firer, then we use the characters cover save.

It might not be the correct way to play it, but we ruled it as so and continued playing.

**Fragile**

Ghenghis Jon wrote:
Scenario: a unit has 1 character in the open, the closest model behind trees with 5+ cover, and the rest behind a building that would provide 4+ cover. During the Shooting phase, an enemy unit Focus Fires on the character in the open, can see the model in 5+ cover , but cannot see any of the models behind the building. Several wounds are put on the character. He makes several Look Out Sir rolls. How do the Focus Fire and Look Out Sir rules interact?

1. Would the model in 5+ cover be able to use it's cover save against the Focus Fire? (Pretty sure)
2. If the closest model is removed as a casualty, are the remaining Look Out Sir! wounds allocated to the next nearest model out of Line of Sight? (Less sure)
3. If the model in 5+ cover was allowed to retain that save, could the models out of Line of Sight claim 4+ cover? (Pretty sure)
4. If they are not allocated to the nearest model out of Line of Sight, what happens to them and why?

Its an interesting scenario. If you look at the focus fire rules pg 18, they state that "Your opponent can only allocate Wounds to models with a cover save equal to or worse (i.e a higher value) than the value stated."

LoS is reallocating a Wound from a character to someone else. While LoS can go out of LOS and out of Range, the focus fire rule states that you can only allocate Wound to those with the same cover save or worse. Therefore anyone behind cover / building would not be eligible.

So...
1. Can not be allocated too since it has a better cover save.
2. No, as they would at least be obscured and have a higher cover save than Character
3. As #2
4. If the character dies and there are no more models affected by the focus fire, then the remaining wounds are lost.

**rigeld2**

Focus fire says your opponent can only allocate in the declared cover group. LOS is your allocation - no restriction.

**Fragile**

rigeld2 wrote:
Focus fire says your opponent can only allocate in the declared cover group. LOS is your allocation - no restriction.

Not sure what your saying here. Both of these rules affect the person making the save.

**liturgies of blood**

Focus fire allows the attacker to limit the available targets to allocate wounds to, LOS is an allowance to re-allocate the wounds.

A does not prevent B.

**Ghenghis Jon**

liturgies of blood wrote:
Focus fire allows the attacker to limit the available targets to allocate wounds to, LOS is an allowance to re-allocate the wounds.

A does not prevent B.

So, I take it you are saying that the wounds can be allocated to models out of sight? If so, what kind of cover save do those models get?

**liturgies of blood**

Ghenghis Jon wrote:
liturgies of blood wrote:
Focus fire allows the attacker to limit the available targets to allocate wounds to, LOS is an allowance to re-allocate the wounds.

A does not prevent B.
So, I take it you are saying that the wounds can be allocated to models out of sight? If so, what kind of cover save do those models get?

The same as any other model since the start of 6th ed that could have LOS transfer a wound to it when it's out of sight. Also I am saying that you can LOS to the nearest model which could have a different cover save.

**Waaaaghmaster**

I don't have my rulebook on hand, but I'm pretty sure that LoS let's you re-allocate "unsaved" wounds. That means you have already failed your save, so it would not matter what cover save the model the wound was allocated to would have had, you don't get to make a save for the re-allocated LoS wound.

**liturgies of blood**

Waaaaghmaster wrote:
I don't have my rulebook on hand, but I'm pretty sure that LoS let's you re-allocate "unsaved" wounds. That means you have already failed your save, so it would not matter what cover save the model the wound was allocated to would have had, you don't get to make a save for the re-allocated LoS wound.

Look at the new faq's.

**Waaaaghmaster**

liturgies of blood wrote:
Waaaaghmaster wrote:
I don't have my rulebook on hand, but I'm pretty sure that LoS let's you re-allocate "unsaved" wounds. That means you have already failed your save, so it would not matter what cover save the model the wound was allocated to would have had, you don't get to make a save for the re-allocated LoS wound.

Look at the new faq's.

The second correction to LoS undershooting says to determine which model is closest to the character and resolve the wound on that model instead. It does not say that model can make a second save. Again, I don't have the rulebook on hand (at work), but I'm pretty sure there are multiple references to making LoS rolls on "unsaved" wounds.

**liturgies of blood**

Not anymore there isn't. You should read how LOS is now done in the same manner as mixed armour saves. Read the errata in the faq not just the questions.

**Waaaaghmaster**

Yeah, after having a chance to look through the brb, I stand corrected.

**Mannahnin**

Ghenghis Jon wrote:
Scenario: a unit has 1 character in the open, the closest model behind trees with 5+ cover, and the rest behind a building that would provide 4+ cover. During the Shooting phase, an enemy unit Focus Fires on the character in the open, can see the model in 5+ cover , but cannot see any of the models behind the building. Several wounds are put on the character. He makes several Look Out Sir rolls. How do the Focus Fire and Look Out Sir rules interact?

1. Would the model in 5+ cover be able to use it's cover save against the Focus Fire? (Pretty sure)
2. If the closest model is removed as a casualty, are the remaining Look Out Sir! wounds allocated to the next nearest model out of Line of Sight? (Less sure)
3. If the model in 5+ cover was allowed to retain that save, could the models out of Line of Sight claim 4+ cover? (Pretty sure)
4. If they are not allocated to the nearest model out of Line of Sight, what happens to them and why?

Looking carefully over the rules for Focus Fire and LOS, it looks to me like LOS wouldn't work in this situation. Focus Fire prevents any wounds from being allocated to or harming any models in better cover than the value designated. LOS is a way for the defender to re-allocate the wound, but if Focus Fire is in play, none of the models which are in better cover than the specified value are legal places to allocate the wound.

**Lobokai**

Mannahnin wrote:
Ghenghis Jon wrote:
Scenario: a unit has 1 character in the open, the closest model behind trees with 5+ cover, and the rest behind a building that would provide 4+ cover. During the Shooting phase, an enemy unit Focus Fires on the character in the open, can see the model in 5+ cover , but cannot see any of the models behind the building. Several wounds are put on the character. He makes several Look Out Sir rolls. How do the Focus Fire and Look Out Sir rules interact?

1. Would the model in 5+ cover be able to use it's cover save against the Focus Fire? (Pretty sure)
2. If the closest model is removed as a casualty, are the remaining Look Out Sir! wounds allocated to the next nearest model out of Line of Sight? (Less sure)
3. If the model in 5+ cover was allowed to retain that save, could the models out of Line of Sight claim 4+ cover? (Pretty sure)
4. If they are not allocated to the nearest model out of Line of Sight, what happens to them and why?

Looking carefully over the rules for Focus Fire and LOS, it looks to me like LOS wouldn't work in this situation. Focus Fire prevents any wounds from being allocated to or harming any models in better cover than the value designated. LOS is a way for the defender to re-allocate the wound, but if Focus Fire is in play, none of the models which are in better cover than the specified value are legal places to allocate the wound.

Well dang, this becomes a nice little trick (if rarely an option). Could you rig this on purpose by putting your own models as intervening cover? Seems to me that you could, and if so, that would be a pretty WAAC/TFG move.

**Mannahnin**

You could do the same thing in 3rd and 4th ed. It can be countered at least to some extent by placing other models in front of the character.

**Ghenghis Jon**

Rulebook, Page 15, Allocate Unsaved Wounds and Remove Casualties: ', Next, allocate an unsaved Wound to the enemy model closest to the firing unit.'

Rulebook, Page 18: Focus Fire: 'Your Opponent can only allocate Wounds to Models with a cover save equal to or worse (i.e. a higher value) than the value stated'

Rulebook FAQ, Page 1: Shooting Phase: Look Out, Sir!: 'Determine which model in the unit is closest to the character, and resolve the wound against that model instead'

Since wound allocation during the Shooting phase is now an algorithm instead of at the discretion of the players, I say that you cannot allocate a wound to a model with a worse cover save using Look Out, Sir! when the firing unit has utilized Focus Fire.

**DeathReaper**

You can LoS! those wounds. you can use LoS! to kill models totally out of Line of Sight as per Page 16

You allocate the wound to the character, he uses LoS!, then you resolve the wound against the guy out of Line of Sight.(or with a better cover save in the case of focus fire).

Edited for clarity.

**Pyrian**

Maybe use LoS and LOS!, rather than using the exact same acronym for both?

**Fragile**

DeathReaper wrote:
You can LoS those wounds. you can use LoS to kill models totally out of LoS as per Page 16

You allocate the wound to the character, he uses LoS, then you resolve the wound against the guy out of LoS.(or with a better cover save in the case of focus fire).

Line of sight is not the issue. LoS does allow that. The issue is that Focus Fire forbids the allocating of a wound to a model with a better cover save. How does Look Out Sir get around that ?

**Killjoy00**

Because focus fire only prevents opponent's allocation, not your own.

**Ailaros**

So, where in LoS! does it say that the re-allocation doesn't need to follow the rules for allocation?

If the answer is "nowhere", I'd say no LoS! on this one. You roll a 4+, and then you ask yourself "who do I allocate this wound to?" The answer is "something with an equal (or worse) save" and "something in line of sight". If neither of those conditions exist, then you have to allocate the wound to a model for whom those conditions exist. If there are no such models, then you can't LoS!

**Gloomfang**

Fragile wrote:
Line of sight is not the issue. LoS does allow that. The issue is that Focus Fire forbids the allocating of a wound to a model with a better cover save. How does Look Out Sir get around that ?

The issue is the "Must use the best save" rule. So by choosing to use LOS! you are making it so that the best cover save the model can use would be one that would allow the wound to be allocated under the rules for Focused Fire. So you could LoS! to a model that has a better cover save, they would just not be able to use that save.

**DeathReaper**

Ailaros wrote:
So, where in LoS! does it say that the re-allocation doesn't need to follow the rules for allocation?

If the answer is "nowhere", I'd say no LoS! on this one. You roll a 4+, and then you ask yourself "who do I allocate this wound to?" The answer is "something with an equal (or worse) save" and "something in line of sight". If neither of those conditions exist, then you have to allocate the wound to a model for whom those conditions exist. If there are no such models, then you can't LoS!

where does it say you are re-allocating the wound?

it just says you resolve the wound against the other model. (Unless I missed something).

**Fragile**

Killjoy00 wrote:
Because focus fire only prevents opponent's allocation, not your own.

They are the same person Killjoy.

**BlueDagger**

Looking at the relevant rules in the book I would have to go on the side that the wounds from LoS could indeed be put on a different cover value model because the FAQ wording states "resolve the wound" not "allocate the wound". You are prevented from allocating wounds to different save categories, but you are not prevented from resolving different save categories.

It's purely a wording issue, but it's also save to assume that GW wants it to work from their new "cinematic game" point of view.

**Fragile**

They refer to it as a reallocation in a few spots.

..Only one Look Our, Sir attempt can be made per Wound allocated - once the Wound has been transferred (or not), no further attempts to reallocate it can be made..

**BlueDagger**

The only word in that whole multi paragraph section that relates resolving = allocating is the one instance of saying "reallocate". If you want to get true RAW on the rule, you are "reallocating" onto the model no "allocating".