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Made in au
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight





Australia

 Tadashi wrote:
Are they really?


Very much so.

It's finding the bastards and getting there without being spotted that's hard. Blowing them up is the easy part.

"Did you ever notice how in the Bible, when ever God needed to punish someone, or make an example, or whenever God needed a killing, he sent an angel? Did you ever wonder what a creature like that must be like? A whole existence spent praising your God, but always with one wing dipped in blood. Would you ever really want to see an angel?" 
   
Made in gb
Man O' War




Nosey, ain't ya?

Another reason the Vietnam War was lost was the Viet Cong's use of psychological warfare. An 18 year old grunt that's seen his best mate's leg blown off is that much more likely to waste a peasant for failing to point out the traps to his patrol.

Now look at it this way. You and your squad are sat in this house in the middle of an urban warzone. Assuming your enemy has managed to build a decent suit of PA at least good enough to stop lets say, a 7.62x39mm, and a bunch of guys wearing this attack your house. You fire a couple of rounds into these guys and the ping straight off. Now what are you going to say to the people you meet after you've seen these guys that are impervious to most small-arms? Use AT weapons on them? What happens if they encounter a AFV afterwards?

Now imagine that you're some poor guerilla fighter that has a gun that should be in a museum. What are you going to think about these guys that can take a mag to the chest and keep going? You're not going to want to fight anymore are you?

EDIT: Grammar

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/01 17:46:05


I have dug my grave in this place and I will triumph or I will die!

Proud member of the I won with Zerkova club

Advocate of 'Jack heavy Khador. 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

The effectivness of things like LAWs and RPGs on dudes in PA really depends on how agile the PA suits are.

If they are even capable of moving at 5MPH it would be quite difficult to get any accuracy with man portable anti-tank weapons, especially with any sort of cover around.

Its hard enough to hit a stationary target with a man portable AT weapon, hitting one thats roughly mansized and can move with a decent speed is going to be very hard.

And anything less then a direct hit is going to be useless. The shrapnel will do nothing and the shockwave will need to be very close to do any damage.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




What are you going to think about these guys that can take a mag to the chest and keep going? You're not going to want to fight anymore are you?

you dont know much about "motherland" wars do you ? because east of Oder you do fight . doesnt matter what the opponent has , how well he is armed. If you cant get them in armor , you poison water, blow up supply trains , use hidden bombs , you attack them where they sleep , you attack them where they go when they have free time . Also it doesnt matter how good armored the dude is . he will have limited ammo and dudes armed with ak-47 are cheaper then a dude in a power armor , that is without counting development costs , resupply , possible malfuctions etc. just the cost of the armor ,his gun and his ammo . once his out of ammo he is meat can .
   
Made in se
Wicked Warp Spider






Ios

I can't help but think of stairs when I read this debate. Stairs and marshlands. Power armour may be ideal for urban or jungle warfare, but that's only provided they are light enough to traverse the terrain and capable of gaining grip in rough areas.

If the armour is too heavy per square inch, it will be a death trap simply walking through sufficiently soft terrain (European marshes, tundra, bogs, planks with mines under them, wooden stairs).

Regardless of which, Makumba and The Crusader brings up very good points. One for and one against the need for powered armour.
Essentially, I see a future where such armour can be used tactically to minimize public morale loss (which essentially amounts to body-bags on return flights) but at the same time it's not a marvellous solution for all your warfare problems - they have a very limited application.
For several reasons a powered armour is very poorly used for anything but direct assaults in areas with the right terrain (dense but stable footing) where collateral damage to non-combatant population or infrastructure is not wanted. Every day peacekeeping patrols would simply be costly means of not accomplishing it's objectives (try talking to someone at his house while wearing a huge armour and carrying a large gun and expect him to be cooperative and friendly - defensive and scared yes, friendly no).

And this is where the other form-fitting armour mentioned in the OP comes in. It may not offer the same protection, but if you have a piece of armour which is capable of three glorious things; be comfortable to wear, be able to hide underneath regular fatigues and protect against small arms (I mean really light weapons such as pistols or shotguns, I don't necessarily mean hunting rifles or machine guns). Oh what application they can have. These would be the true masters of warfare for democracies* by forcing the Enemy to use advanced (read: costly and/or bulky) weapons. (Ironically I also foresee this situation creating an environment where there actually is demand for powered armour)

* because, let's face it, only democracies have to worry about public opinion and tends to have a birth rate of less than 2 per woman so you can't throw lives away like they were bullets.

I really need to stay away from the 40K forums. 
   
Made in gb
Man O' War




Nosey, ain't ya?

Makumba wrote:
What are you going to think about these guys that can take a mag to the chest and keep going? You're not going to want to fight anymore are you?

you don't know much about "motherland" wars do you? because east of Oder you do fight . doesnt matter what the opponent has , how well he is armed. If you cant get them in armor , you poison water, blow up supply trains , use hidden bombs , you attack them where they sleep , you attack them where they go when they have free time . Also it doesn't matter how good armored the dude is . he will have limited ammo and dudes armed with ak-47 are cheaper then a dude in a power armor , that is without counting development costs , resupply , possible malfunctions etc. just the cost of the armor ,his gun and his ammo . once his out of ammo he is meat can .


But that works both ways. If you use all you're ammo on him and you cannot actually hurt him, you'll both run out. And when you do, He will be better off. Just like he was at the start of the firefight. You may have more ammo or whatever, but if your weapon cannot physically hurt him, all that counts for nothing. That and it's pretty hard to poison water if you're dead and not actually in the water when you are. Any Army can plant bombs and poison water and food. Ultimately, you will lose the will to fight if you. Maybe a couple will stay for some reason. That just makes the job of the PA-wearer easier. Once word spreads that the enemy can field soldiers that you cannot kill, the desertion rate will skyrocket. Plus the Eastern Front was pretty different from most wars. Right from the outset it was a war of annihilation. You had 2 choices: Fight and die or Run and die. Usually faced with these conditions it is a "Then I'll take as many of them down with me as possible" attitude that is adopted.

I have dug my grave in this place and I will triumph or I will die!

Proud member of the I won with Zerkova club

Advocate of 'Jack heavy Khador. 
   
Made in au
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight





Australia

 The Crusader wrote:
Makumba wrote:
What are you going to think about these guys that can take a mag to the chest and keep going? You're not going to want to fight anymore are you?

you don't know much about "motherland" wars do you? because east of Oder you do fight . doesnt matter what the opponent has , how well he is armed. If you cant get them in armor , you poison water, blow up supply trains , use hidden bombs , you attack them where they sleep , you attack them where they go when they have free time . Also it doesn't matter how good armored the dude is . he will have limited ammo and dudes armed with ak-47 are cheaper then a dude in a power armor , that is without counting development costs , resupply , possible malfunctions etc. just the cost of the armor ,his gun and his ammo . once his out of ammo he is meat can .


But that works both ways.


The problem is, it doesn't work both ways. We (the west) certainly do not lack the ability to kill peasants in Afghanistan. But we don't know where they are. They move a lot, they hide amongst the general population, they don't wear uniforms. But we have large military bases. We can't find them, but they can sure find us. They know where we sleep, they know where we are at all times. Power armour doesn't change that at all.

"Did you ever notice how in the Bible, when ever God needed to punish someone, or make an example, or whenever God needed a killing, he sent an angel? Did you ever wonder what a creature like that must be like? A whole existence spent praising your God, but always with one wing dipped in blood. Would you ever really want to see an angel?" 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

 Kaldor wrote:
 The Crusader wrote:
Makumba wrote:
What are you going to think about these guys that can take a mag to the chest and keep going? You're not going to want to fight anymore are you?

you don't know much about "motherland" wars do you? because east of Oder you do fight . doesnt matter what the opponent has , how well he is armed. If you cant get them in armor , you poison water, blow up supply trains , use hidden bombs , you attack them where they sleep , you attack them where they go when they have free time . Also it doesn't matter how good armored the dude is . he will have limited ammo and dudes armed with ak-47 are cheaper then a dude in a power armor , that is without counting development costs , resupply , possible malfunctions etc. just the cost of the armor ,his gun and his ammo . once his out of ammo he is meat can .


But that works both ways.


The problem is, it doesn't work both ways. We (the west) certainly do not lack the ability to kill peasants in Afghanistan. But we don't know where they are. They move a lot, they hide amongst the general population, they don't wear uniforms. But we have large military bases. We can't find them, but they can sure find us. They know where we sleep, they know where we are at all times. Power armour doesn't change that at all.


Which is why PA wouldn't be used to fight insurgents, just like tactical nukes arn't used to fight insurgents.

Powered Armor suits would be used in the event of a war between 2 actual military forces. Not for chasing down terrorists, with the possable exception of using the suits to clear underground cave complexs. where they would be very effective as the shock waves from using anti-tank weaponry would be far more likely to kill the user then the actual target, especially at close range.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in ph
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought





Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...

 Grey Templar wrote:

Powered Armor suits would be used in the event of a war between 2 actual military forces.


Not necessarily. Special Ops would definitely benefit from this and would probably use them widely.

I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.

'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

 Tadashi wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:

Powered Armor suits would be used in the event of a war between 2 actual military forces.


Not necessarily. Special Ops would definitely benefit from this and would probably use them widely.


possably, my example of clearing a cave system shows that. I certaintly think it would be Spec Ops units that would recieve the first use of these suits.


They probably wouldn't be great in a stealthy operation, but a lightning strike to secure a target with brute force and then quickly evac would be a viable use.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/01 23:46:10


Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in ph
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought





Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...

 Grey Templar wrote:
 Tadashi wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:

Powered Armor suits would be used in the event of a war between 2 actual military forces.


Not necessarily. Special Ops would definitely benefit from this and would probably use them widely.


possably, my example of clearing a cave system shows that. I certaintly think it would be Spec Ops units that would recieve the first use of these suits.


They probably wouldn't be great in a stealthy operation, but a lightining strike to secure a target with brute force and then quickly evac would be a viable use.


Agreed. The way the Mobile Infantry from the novel operates springs to mind rather quickly.

EDIT: IIRC, Starship Troopers is one of the few sci-fi novels in the US military's reading list - I'm sure they wouldn't mind taking a few leaves out of the book, such as orbital insertion, a lightning strike with devastating and nigh-unstoppable force, and evacuation by air.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/10/01 23:48:15


I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.

'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

I can imagine the Government not releasing when such armor becomes avaliable. Better for the targets to be completely surprised when they fight you.

Having something thats stepped directly out of a Sci-fi movie and shred your buddies in a hail of bullets will shake even the most hardened soldier.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in ph
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought





Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...

 Grey Templar wrote:
I can imagine the Government not releasing when such armor becomes avaliable. Better for the targets to be completely surprised when they fight you.


Not immediately, no. But when the victory parade arrives...

I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.

'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter






I don’t think full out power armor is completely necessary yet

Though the support systems associated with them would benefit current fighters today.

Powered legs, advanced optics/comm., auto tourniquets/pain killers would probably benefit the most of current ground fighters as fatigue, up to date information and effective first aid are pretty high priority.

Though once you start adding up more armor plates to that I would start to wonder about the integrity of stairs and buildings being able to hold up all that weight, especially dilapidated or 3rd world buildings, and the logistical + maintenance issues of such equipment would probably limit its use to only the best of the best of the best.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
Made in us
Hardened Veteran Guardsman





Danbury, CT

 Lynata wrote:

Tadashi wrote:No, soldiers don't run around with swords...but they are armed with daggers and other stabbing weapons.
Aye, I even recall having read of a bayonet charge by NATO troops (I think they were British?) in Afghanistan just years ago.
Now, in the age of firearms such situations would occur only rarely, but if it comes down to it, it'd all depend on what the material the armour is made of can endure, and what quality the bladed weapon is of.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Danny_Boy

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8252974.stm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-shropshire-19755107

3 in a Decade, and the US Army decided training soldiers with pugil sticks was more important.

Ultramarines Legion 138th Company
Ultramarines Legion 19th Reserve Armour Company

Merican 1st Infantry "Merican Legion" 
   
Made in ph
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought





Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...

 Desubot wrote:
... the logistical + maintenance issues of such equipment would probably limit its use to only the best of the best of the best.


Two words - Special Ops. I think we can all agree that only Special Ops would use full powered armor.

I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.

'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

We are kinda on the backswing of the weapon/armor development pendulum. Armor gets better, then Weapons get better to compensate, as a result armor eventually gets improved. and an endless cycle with armor and weapons trading places at the forefront of the tech curve.


 Tadashi wrote:
 Desubot wrote:
... the logistical + maintenance issues of such equipment would probably limit its use to only the best of the best of the best.


Two words - Special Ops. I think we can all agree that only Special Ops would use full powered armor.


Special Ops forces are already kind of the equivilent of Heavy Shock troops, giving them something more suited to that role would make complete sense.

So the same unit could concievabley be used as an infiltration unit to destroy targets behind lines as well as a unit tasked with taking out enemy hard points on the front line.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/02 00:20:40


Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in au
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight





Australia

 Grey Templar wrote:
Powered Armor suits would be used in the event of a war between 2 actual military forces. Not for chasing down terrorists, with the possable exception of using the suits to clear underground cave complexs. where they would be very effective as the shock waves from using anti-tank weaponry would be far more likely to kill the user then the actual target, especially at close range.


An actual war between two militaries is just going to be countries trading missiles until one side surrenders. Wars of conquest died out long ago, it's much cheaper and easier to just buy the things we need. Spending billions of dollars developing a tool to solve an imaginary problem doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

"Did you ever notice how in the Bible, when ever God needed to punish someone, or make an example, or whenever God needed a killing, he sent an angel? Did you ever wonder what a creature like that must be like? A whole existence spent praising your God, but always with one wing dipped in blood. Would you ever really want to see an angel?" 
   
Made in ph
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought





Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...

 Kaldor wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:
Powered Armor suits would be used in the event of a war between 2 actual military forces. Not for chasing down terrorists, with the possable exception of using the suits to clear underground cave complexs. where they would be very effective as the shock waves from using anti-tank weaponry would be far more likely to kill the user then the actual target, especially at close range.


An actual war between two militaries is just going to be countries trading missiles until one side surrenders. Wars of conquest died out long ago, it's much cheaper and easier to just buy the things we need. Spending billions of dollars developing a tool to solve an imaginary problem doesn't sound like a good idea to me.


Before WWII, many people thought 'war was a thing of the past'. Well, Japan and Germany showed them otherwise.

More importantly, even if it doesn't sound like a good idea to you, you're not the one who makes that decision. Furthermore, firing missiles and launching air strikes don't win wars - if that were the case, the War on Terror would have been over years ago.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/02 00:35:43


I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.

'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

 Kaldor wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:
Powered Armor suits would be used in the event of a war between 2 actual military forces. Not for chasing down terrorists, with the possable exception of using the suits to clear underground cave complexs. where they would be very effective as the shock waves from using anti-tank weaponry would be far more likely to kill the user then the actual target, especially at close range.


An actual war between two militaries is just going to be countries trading missiles until one side surrenders. Wars of conquest died out long ago, it's much cheaper and easier to just buy the things we need. Spending billions of dollars developing a tool to solve an imaginary problem doesn't sound like a good idea to me.




War between 2 modern militarys will not be missiles traded back and forth. Nuclear missiles are a mutual annhilation scenerio, so no country is going to use them unless they are certain they won't be counter annhilated.

The only missiles traded back and forth will be Cruise missiles, and those will simply be in the context of a larger ground war.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in ph
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought





Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...

 Grey Templar wrote:

The only missiles traded back and forth will be Cruise missiles, and those will simply be in the context of a larger ground war.


You put as many aircraft in the air as you like, and launch all the missiles in the world, but if you can't put men on the ground in the right place and in the right time, you can't win a war.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/02 00:38:28


I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.

'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

 Tadashi wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:

The only missiles traded back and forth will be Cruise missiles, and those will simply be in the context of a larger ground war.


You put as many aircraft in the air as you like, and launch all the missiles in the world, but if you can't put men on the ground in the right place and in the right time, you can't win a war.


Aircraft and Missiles are also expensive. A ground war is cheaper then an Air war.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in ph
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought





Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...

 Grey Templar wrote:
 Tadashi wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:

The only missiles traded back and forth will be Cruise missiles, and those will simply be in the context of a larger ground war.


You put as many aircraft in the air as you like, and launch all the missiles in the world, but if you can't put men on the ground in the right place and in the right time, you can't win a war.


Aircraft and Missiles are also expensive. A ground war is cheaper then an Air war.


Indeed. Except in casualties...and that's where Future Force Warrior and prospectively-developed powered armor come in.

I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.

'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

I think people get too focused on casualties. Not that they arn't a bad thing, but people honestly should expect them in war.

Whats worse? Winning a war with horrendous casualties or engaging in a war and stopping because of the lives lost?

To stop a war because of casualties makes those who did die die in vain. To run from a conflict is to dishonor the soldiers that gave their lives in the conflict. Its the ultimate expression of cowardice. Those soldiers gave their lives desiring victory, to not gain that victory wastes their blood.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/02 00:48:30


Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in ph
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought





Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...

 Grey Templar wrote:


To stop a war because of casualties makes those who did die die in vain. To run from a conflict is to dishonor the soldiers that gave their lives in the conflict. Its the ultimate expression of cowardice. Those soldiers gave their lives desiring victory, to not gain that victory wastes their blood.


That's why I get irritated when the US Government goes on about Human Rights and other BS but get evasive when the time comes to drop the hammer. They shame not just their soldiers and civilians who died - everyone they killed to become the world's number one superpower (WWII springs to mind rather quickly) and the ones who die or get killed in the current conflicts are also shamed by the USA failing to show the ruthlessness they displayed to achieve their current position.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/02 00:53:16


I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.

'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' 
   
Made in au
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight





Australia

 Tadashi wrote:
Before WWII, many people thought 'war was a thing of the past'. Well, Japan and Germany showed them otherwise.

More importantly, even if it doesn't sound like a good idea to you, you're not the one who makes that decision. Furthermore, firing missiles and launching air strikes don't win wars - if that were the case, the War on Terror would have been over years ago.


What would anyone have to gain by going to war against another developed nation? Why bother spending billions of dollars on a tool to solve an imaginary problem? And while missiles and airstrikes are only a portion of the whole spectrum of war, using them on Hiroshima and Nagasaki sure brought the Japanese to heel.

War, as I keep saying, it an extension of politics. When looking at another developed nation, the question must be asked "What do I want that nation to do?" and the next question is "How do I get them to do it?"

The answer is almost never going to be "Put men with guns in their cities and make them do it".

"Did you ever notice how in the Bible, when ever God needed to punish someone, or make an example, or whenever God needed a killing, he sent an angel? Did you ever wonder what a creature like that must be like? A whole existence spent praising your God, but always with one wing dipped in blood. Would you ever really want to see an angel?" 
   
Made in ph
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought





Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...

 Kaldor wrote:


What would anyone have to gain by going to war against another developed nation? Why bother spending billions of dollars on a tool to solve an imaginary problem? And while missiles and airstrikes are only a portion of the whole spectrum of war, using them on Hiroshima and Nagasaki sure brought the Japanese to heel.


Only because our Navy was destroyed, and our Army trapped in China. If you had done that while the IJN and IJA were at full strength, Japan would not have surrendered. On the other side of the world, Allied armies had to fight all the way across Europe to bring Nazi Germany to heel - bombing our strategic assets alone would not have won the war.


War, as I keep saying, it an extension of politics. When looking at another developed nation, the question must be asked "What do I want that nation to do?" and the next question is "How do I get them to do it?"

The answer is almost never going to be "Put men with guns in their cities and make them do it".


Strange...lots of troops in the Middle East and they still do as they please. The US tries to be diplomatic with China, but the Chinese still do as they please.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/02 01:37:51


I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.

'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' 
   
Made in au
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight





Australia

 Tadashi wrote:
Strange...lots of troops in the Middle East and they still do as they please. The US tries to be diplomatic with China, but the Chinese still do as they please.


Well, yes. Lots of troops in the middle east, and no results. I though you said that boots on the ground won wars? Why haven't we won then?

Because there is no centralised leadership, and no clear definitions of 'winning'. There's no one to issue a surrender, no one to negotiate with. And no amount of power armoured troops are going to help in that type of conflict. They'll still just attack us while we sleep, ambush our patrols, and be almost impossible to catch.

The questions remain pertinent: What do I want the other guys to do, and how do I get them to do it?

It's a very rare situation where putting soldiers in their country is the best way to get anyone to do anything. If we want oil from Iraq, it's a lot cheaper and easier to buy it than invade them and take it. If we want Libya to surrender to it's rebelling population, we just sanction some airstrikes and it's done. It's all about cost and rewards, risk management, long term benefits, so on and so forth. It's all very complex, but the end result is that taking the time to develop powered armour with military applications would be a colossal misuse of resources.

"Did you ever notice how in the Bible, when ever God needed to punish someone, or make an example, or whenever God needed a killing, he sent an angel? Did you ever wonder what a creature like that must be like? A whole existence spent praising your God, but always with one wing dipped in blood. Would you ever really want to see an angel?" 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

 Kaldor wrote:
 Tadashi wrote:
Before WWII, many people thought 'war was a thing of the past'. Well, Japan and Germany showed them otherwise.

More importantly, even if it doesn't sound like a good idea to you, you're not the one who makes that decision. Furthermore, firing missiles and launching air strikes don't win wars - if that were the case, the War on Terror would have been over years ago.


What would anyone have to gain by going to war against another developed nation? Why bother spending billions of dollars on a tool to solve an imaginary problem? And while missiles and airstrikes are only a portion of the whole spectrum of war, using them on Hiroshima and Nagasaki sure brought the Japanese to heel.

War, as I keep saying, it an extension of politics. When looking at another developed nation, the question must be asked "What do I want that nation to do?" and the next question is "How do I get them to do it?"

The answer is almost never going to be "Put men with guns in their cities and make them do it".


Because they have something the other wants.

Tax Revenue, natural resources, etc...


If something is in your land it will be cheaper then if you import the same item from out of the area. It is very benificial to turn something into a domestic product then to import it.

Oil is an excellent example. Importing oil is more expensive then drilling it yourself.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in fk
Longtime Dakkanaut





Wishing I was back at the South Atlantic, closer to ice than the sun

Most Spec Ops teams work on KISS principles, I doubt that any team, be it SEALS, SAS, SBS etc, would want powered armour.

Hi visibility units that work on the threat, eg SWAT would probably want such an item, as their typical opponents, eg criminals, do not have access to the necessary hardware to stand up to such suits and so are more likely to surrender than fight.

Aircraft and missile may not win you wars, but enough of them can make your opponent lose.

I agree with Khaldor, use the resources to develop rapid insertion techniques and improve vehicle abilities, benefit the many rather than the one.

Cheers

Andrew

I don't care what the flag says, I'm SCOTTISH!!!

Best definition of the word Battleship?
Mr Nobody wrote:
Does a canoe with a machine gun count?
 
   
 
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