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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/04 22:43:51
Subject: Imotekh's lightning Vs flyers
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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@foolishmortal, regarding number 3. It isn't that you can't add a d6, it's that you only get to add the strength of the weapon/model/ramming vehicle.
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/04 23:02:08
Subject: Imotekh's lightning Vs flyers
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Rough Rider with Boomstick
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Happyjew wrote:@foolishmortal, regarding number 3. It isn't that you can't add a d6, it's that you only get to add the strength of the weapon/model/ramming vehicle.
can you say this again in more detail, please? You seem to be saying it's not that you can't add a d6 to the AP roll, its that you only get the strength of the hit.
That's 2 ways of saying the same thing.
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"Ignorance is bliss, and I am a happy man."
"When you claim to be a purple unicorn, and I do not argue with you, it is not because I agree with you."
“If the iron is hot, I desire to believe it is hot, and if it is cool, I desire to believe it is cool.”
"Beware when you find yourself arguing that a policy is defensible rather than optimal; or that it has some benefit compared to the null action, rather than the best benefit of any action." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/04 23:08:04
Subject: Imotekh's lightning Vs flyers
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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According to your post you only get strength of the hit (not the additional d6). However, the rules say that for armour penetration, you get d6+(strength of the weapon/psa/model/ram). Therefore, the lightning (which is not one of the listed) only gets d6 for armour penetration.
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/04 23:11:22
Subject: Re:Imotekh's lightning Vs flyers
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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foolishmortal wrote: DeathReaper wrote:"Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers"
Is the Lightning fired as a Snap Shot? (No) Then how is it generating automatic hits on a flyer?
Is a ADL Quad gun fired as a Snap Shot? Then how is it generating hits on a flyer?
That faq entry does not live in a vacuum. There are other rules that allow hits to be generated without snap shots. In this case, the Skyfire rule, and in the OP's case, the Lord of the Storm rule.
Have you read the Quad guns rules, specifically the Skyfire rule, It gives the Quad gun a rule that specifically over-rides the general rules about fliers and snap-shots.
Does the Lightning rule have a similar specific exception to over-ride the general rules about fliers and snap-shots?
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/04 23:16:26
Subject: Imotekh's lightning Vs flyers
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Rough Rider with Boomstick
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Happyjew wrote:According to your post you only get strength of the hit (not the additional d6). However, the rules say that for armour penetration, you get d6+(strength of the weapon/psa/model/ram). Therefore, the lightning (which is not one of the listed) only gets d6 for armour penetration.
I guess I'm just not understanding your point about my #3 option.
I said "... but the non-weapon nature..."
Would you be happier if I said "...but the non-weapon/psa/model/ram nature..." ?
Also, where did you find it in the Ram rules that Armor Penetration for a Ram maneuver is Ram Str + d6?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DeathReaper wrote:Have you read the Quad guns rules, specifically the Skyfire rule, It gives the Quad gun a rule that specifically over-rides the general rules about fliers and snap-shots.
Does the Lightning rule have a similar specific exception to over-ride the general rules about fliers and snap-shots?
I have read them, and I stand by my point.
Before I go any further, just to clarify, I am arguing from a RAW permissive rules set point of view, but also willing to consider rules based arguments without specific, explicit rules.
The Lord of the Storm rules calls for me to roll a d6 for each unengaged enemy unit on the battlefield.
I cite p7 BRB update v1a in conjunction with the Victory Conditions on BRB p22 favor of flyers being "on the battlefield"
Q: If you leave combat airspace with all of your Flyers and have no
other models on the gaming board at the beginning of your
opponent's turn, do you automatically lose the game? (p122)
A: Yes.
I look at Hard to Hit on BRB p81. This is the rule that Zooming Flyers and Swooping MCs use to avoid many attacks. It discusses "shots resolved at a zooming flyer..." and prohibits "Template, Blast, and Large Blast weapons" from hitting zooming flyers." The Lord of the Storm rule is not a shooting attack. Neither is it a weapon, or use Template, Blast, and Large Blast markers.
I do see a strict RAW problem with adding the d6 to the Str 8, but that has nothing to do with your objection.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/10/04 23:30:25
"Ignorance is bliss, and I am a happy man."
"When you claim to be a purple unicorn, and I do not argue with you, it is not because I agree with you."
“If the iron is hot, I desire to believe it is hot, and if it is cool, I desire to believe it is cool.”
"Beware when you find yourself arguing that a policy is defensible rather than optimal; or that it has some benefit compared to the null action, rather than the best benefit of any action." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/05 00:05:11
Subject: Imotekh's lightning Vs flyers
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Check the FAQ.
Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas.
The Lightning targets every unit on the battlefield. and it does not fire snap shots, so it can not hit a Zooming Flyer.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/05 00:23:21
Subject: Imotekh's lightning Vs flyers
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Rough Rider with Boomstick
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Check the Codex, Lord of the Storm does not target.
Edit : In case you don't have it
Lord of the Storm, Necrons p55.
1st paragraph is about applying Night Fighting
2nd paragraph " In addition, whilst Night Fighting rules remain in play, roll a D6 for each unengaged enemy unit on the battlefield at the start of each Necron Shooting phase. On a roll of a 6, that unit is struck by a bolt of lightning and suffers D6 Strength 8, AP 5 hits (vehicles are hit on their side armour). Note that Night Fighting rules brought into play by a Solar Pulse (see page 84) do not generate lightning."
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/05 00:32:56
"Ignorance is bliss, and I am a happy man."
"When you claim to be a purple unicorn, and I do not argue with you, it is not because I agree with you."
“If the iron is hot, I desire to believe it is hot, and if it is cool, I desire to believe it is cool.”
"Beware when you find yourself arguing that a policy is defensible rather than optimal; or that it has some benefit compared to the null action, rather than the best benefit of any action." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/05 00:32:37
Subject: Imotekh's lightning Vs flyers
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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foolishmortal, there seems to be some confusion. In regards to penetrating a vehicle the armour penetration roll is D6 + the Weapon's strength. Since the Lightning is not a weapon, you only get D6 for armour penetration. I'm not sure where you are getting the Strength 8 but no D6 from.
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/05 00:38:37
Subject: Imotekh's lightning Vs flyers
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Rough Rider with Boomstick
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Happyjew wrote:foolishmortal, there seems to be some confusion. In regards to penetrating a vehicle the armour penetration roll is D6 + the Weapon's strength. Since the Lightning is not a weapon, you only get D6 for armour penetration. I'm not sure where you are getting the Strength 8 but no D6 from.
It's a Str 8 hit to the side armor. I get the Str 8 from the rules text of LotS.
I see a strength 8 hit to the side armor and no special rule to add d6 on the Armor Pen roll.
You seem to see a generalized rule for a d6 + weapon/model Str Armor Pen roll, but no special rule to add the Str 8 hit as it is not a weapon/model
Where do you see this generalized rule? I can infer it, but I did not find a generic armor pen rule that was separate from a specific form of attack.
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"Ignorance is bliss, and I am a happy man."
"When you claim to be a purple unicorn, and I do not argue with you, it is not because I agree with you."
“If the iron is hot, I desire to believe it is hot, and if it is cool, I desire to believe it is cool.”
"Beware when you find yourself arguing that a policy is defensible rather than optimal; or that it has some benefit compared to the null action, rather than the best benefit of any action." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/05 00:42:04
Subject: Imotekh's lightning Vs flyers
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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I see it on page 73 under ARMOUR PENETRATION ROLLS where it says to roll a D6 and add the weapon's stength.
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/05 00:46:51
Subject: Imotekh's lightning Vs flyers
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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foolishmortal wrote:Check the Codex, Lord of the Storm does not target.
Edit : In case you don't have it
Lord of the Storm, Necrons p55.
1st paragraph is about applying Night Fighting
2nd paragraph " In addition, whilst Night Fighting rules remain in play, roll a D6 for each unengaged enemy unit on the battlefield at the start of each Necron Shooting phase. On a roll of a 6, that unit is struck by a bolt of lightning and suffers D6 Strength 8, AP 5 hits (vehicles are hit on their side armour). Note that Night Fighting rules brought into play by a Solar Pulse (see page 84) do not generate lightning."
So something that hits every unit on the battlefield does not target every unit on the battlefield?
The fact that the rules say that "vehicles are hit on their side armour" means that you have hit a vehicle illegally.
as zooming fliers can not be hit unless it is a snap shot.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/05 01:04:10
Subject: Imotekh's lightning Vs flyers
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Grisly Ghost Ark Driver
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DeathReaper wrote: So something that hits every unit on the battlefield does not target every unit on the battlefield?
Correct: Only rules which state they 'target' something can be considered to 'target' something. 'Target' in this case has specific rules-connotations to it, which the LoTS ability does not include.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/10/05 01:05:24
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/05 01:24:58
Subject: Imotekh's lightning Vs flyers
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Rough Rider with Boomstick
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Happyjew wrote:I see it on page 73 under ARMOUR PENETRATION ROLLS where it says to roll a D6 and add the weapon's stength.
I brought up p73, p76, and p 86 earlier in this thread. It didn't get as much of a response as I thought it might.
Yes, I am aware of that rule on p73, but as it is under the larger heading of Shooting at Vehicles, I thought to apply it to shooting at vehicles.
p76 say to work out Armour Penetration for close combat "in the same way as for shooting ( D6 + the strength of the attacker)."
p86 shows how to work out the Strength of the hit from the Ram maneuver, and calls for an armour pen roll, but gives no further details of procedure or what to reference (as GW did on p76)
This leaves us without a generalized Armour Penetration rule.
We have a) D6 + Weapon Str b) D6 + Model Str c) Ram Str + mention of a roll
RAW, I would be ok with p73 being the generalized base, with exceptions as noted in later rules, but that immediately invalidates RAW Ramming.
I prefer to follow the principle of not invalidating other rules when interpreting rules in question.
Thus, I went with a rules based argument (but sadly not a strictly RAW one) that a hit against a vehicle is resolved by an armour penetration roll of Strength of the hit + D6 unless other wise modified by some rule. (Armourbane, etc)
Automatically Appended Next Post: DeathReaper wrote:The fact that the rules say that "vehicles are hit on their side armour" means that you have hit a vehicle illegally.
as zooming fliers can not be hit unless it is a snap shot.
I would have said "zooming fliers can not be hit [by shooting attacks] unless it is a snap shot [or the attacking model has Skyfire or is firing a weapon with Skyfire]."
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/05 01:30:54
"Ignorance is bliss, and I am a happy man."
"When you claim to be a purple unicorn, and I do not argue with you, it is not because I agree with you."
“If the iron is hot, I desire to believe it is hot, and if it is cool, I desire to believe it is cool.”
"Beware when you find yourself arguing that a policy is defensible rather than optimal; or that it has some benefit compared to the null action, rather than the best benefit of any action." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/05 01:32:42
Subject: Imotekh's lightning Vs flyers
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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So we are left with one of two options.
a) Lightning is not an attack, therefore is able to hit Flyers but only gets Strength or D6 for armour penetration.
b) Lightning is an attack which means it gets Strength + D6 for armour penetration but cannot hit Flyers.
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/05 01:34:32
Subject: Re:Imotekh's lightning Vs flyers
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Grisly Ghost Ark Driver
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I'd go with:
C) The RAW are inconclusive in this case, wait for an FAQ.
That, or a) as modified by the LoTS rule itself to include it's strength and the normal d6 roll.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/10/05 01:37:23
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/05 01:36:38
Subject: Imotekh's lightning Vs flyers
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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I'd go with:
D) The RAW are inconclusive in this case, use precedents until such a time it actually gets FAQ'd (assuming it ever does).
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/05 01:37:22
Subject: Imotekh's lightning Vs flyers
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Rough Rider with Boomstick
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IMO, yes. Although I split your #1 up into two choices. One for Strict RAW that also invalidates Ramming, and one that allows it and Ramming to work.
I was hoping there would be some sort of parallel rule with the new terrain rules. LotS feels a great deal like a battlefield-wide version mysterious terrain. Automatically Appended Next Post: Neorealist wrote:I'd go with:
C) The RAW are inconclusive in this case, wait for an FAQ.
That, or a) as modified by the LoTS rule itself to include it's strength and the normal d6 roll.
This is YMDC not You Wait For Da Faq
Make your case, argue points of logic and similar rules, try...
Imotekh is a popular HQ. Flyers are only going to get more common. This is not a trivial case we can ignore and not have it come up. I for one would prefer to have a solid rules based line of thinking in place for when it does.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/05 01:40:20
"Ignorance is bliss, and I am a happy man."
"When you claim to be a purple unicorn, and I do not argue with you, it is not because I agree with you."
“If the iron is hot, I desire to believe it is hot, and if it is cool, I desire to believe it is cool.”
"Beware when you find yourself arguing that a policy is defensible rather than optimal; or that it has some benefit compared to the null action, rather than the best benefit of any action." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/05 01:42:13
Subject: Re:Imotekh's lightning Vs flyers
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Grisly Ghost Ark Driver
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In truth i don't like that answer any more than you, but sometimes the rules just aren't as clear as they need to be.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/05 01:43:08
Subject: Imotekh's lightning Vs flyers
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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As usual when we encounter vague rules we should always take the least advantageous interpretation.
This is one of those cases where the RaW is not 100% clear, so we should go with the least advantageous interpretation which would be the Lightning can not hit Zooming Flyers.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/05 01:43:35
Subject: Imotekh's lightning Vs flyers
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Rough Rider with Boomstick
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Yes, but I think we have distilled it down to answerable questions. I don't think it's beyond a reasonable answer. Automatically Appended Next Post: DeathReaper wrote:As usual when we encounter vague rules we should always take the least advantageous interpretation.
This is one of those cases where the RaW is not 100% clear, so we should go with the least advantageous interpretation which would be the Lightning can not hit Zooming Flyers.
This is a reasonable point, but you seem to have added an unspoken least advantageous [for the Necrons] instead of a least advantageous [for the flyers].
Why? Automatically Appended Next Post: I would look at the order of events again. It all starts with the Lord of the Storm rule. In a "do this" vs "you may not do that" debate, it has to start with the "do this."
1) LotS instructs me to check every unengaged enemy unit on the battlefield for a lightning hit, but HtH prevents the check. If this is your position, I would ask, Why does HtH prevent the check?
1a) LotS instructs me to check every unengaged enemy unit on the battlefield for a lightning hit, but flyers are not on the battlefield. Why do you think that flyers are not on the battlefield?
2) LotS instructs me to check for a lightning hit, but HtH allows the check but negates the hits. If this is your position, I would ask, Why does HtH negates the hit?
3) LotS instructs me to check for a lightning hit, but the non-weapon nature of the lightning does not allow for a d6 to be added to the Armor Pen check. If this is your position, I would ask you what about Ramming on p86? Does your understanding of LotS here invalidate Ramming RAW?
4) LotS instructs me to check for a lightning hit and nothing in the HTH, Zooming, Swooping, or any related BRB/Codex Updates gives me a compelling reason not to apply such a hit as I might any other hit.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/10/05 01:52:16
"Ignorance is bliss, and I am a happy man."
"When you claim to be a purple unicorn, and I do not argue with you, it is not because I agree with you."
“If the iron is hot, I desire to believe it is hot, and if it is cool, I desire to believe it is cool.”
"Beware when you find yourself arguing that a policy is defensible rather than optimal; or that it has some benefit compared to the null action, rather than the best benefit of any action." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/05 01:54:38
Subject: Imotekh's lightning Vs flyers
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Because If there is equal weight, choosing the option that gives the action taker less advantage is the more ethical choice. In this case the action taker is the one with the Lightning. Either way, why are you hitting a Zooming Flyer when you have not resolved that hit as a snap shot? You have broken a rule if you generate hits on a Zooming flyer without resolving those hits as snapshots. We should always strive to break no rule.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/10/05 01:56:17
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/05 02:08:23
Subject: Imotekh's lightning Vs flyers
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Rough Rider with Boomstick
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DeathReaper wrote:Because If there is equal weight, choosing the option that gives the action taker less advantage is the more ethical choice.
In this case the action taker is the one with the Lightning. This is reasonable, and is also my understanding, but I don't think we are to the "give up and throw up our hands" point yet
Either way, why are you hitting a Zooming Flyer when you have not resolved that hit as a snap shot? I have responded to this. What was incorrect about my response? What additional evidence do you have to present to increase my belief in this statement? In what way have you corrected your statement to make it more believable?
You have broken a rule if you generate hits on a Zooming flyer without resolving those hits as snapshots. No
We should always strive to break no rule. Yes
Edit - Just for clarity...
DeathReaper wrote:
The fact that the rules say that "vehicles are hit on their side armour" means that you have hit a vehicle illegally.
as zooming fliers can not be hit unless it is a snap shot.
I would have said "zooming fliers can not be hit [by shooting attacks] unless it is a snap shot [or the attacking model has Skyfire or is firing a weapon with Skyfire]."
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/05 02:09:50
"Ignorance is bliss, and I am a happy man."
"When you claim to be a purple unicorn, and I do not argue with you, it is not because I agree with you."
“If the iron is hot, I desire to believe it is hot, and if it is cool, I desire to believe it is cool.”
"Beware when you find yourself arguing that a policy is defensible rather than optimal; or that it has some benefit compared to the null action, rather than the best benefit of any action." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/05 02:15:14
Subject: Re:Imotekh's lightning Vs flyers
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Grisly Ghost Ark Driver
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Pre-FAQ update i'd have agreed with you unreservedly as it states that Zooming models 'cannot be shot at'.
Sadly however the FAQ itself uses the language that Zooming models 'cannot be hit'. which makes it rather more specific to your point. That said, if the necron 'dex says that the lightning is resolved as hit against the side armor, and the general rulebook (+faq) says that zooming models cannot be hit, isn't that another case of 'advanced' vs 'basic'?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/05 02:36:48
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/05 02:36:55
Subject: Re:Imotekh's lightning Vs flyers
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Rough Rider with Boomstick
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Neorealist wrote:Pre- FAQ update i'd have agreed with you unreservedly as it states that Zooming models 'cannot be shot at'.
Sadly however the FAQ itself uses the language that Zooming models 'cannot be hit'. which makes it rather more specific to your point.
Yes, but look at what it says. (underlining mine)
Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas.
This is a specific answer to a specific category of question, not a blanket statement with no exceptions. We know it's not a a blanket statement with no exceptions because the Skyfire rule exists and allows something other than Sanp Shots to hit flyers. The Skyfire rule shows that this is not a trump restriction even on the category of all shooting attacks, and LotS isn't even a shooting attack.
Neorealist wrote:That said, if the necron 'dex says that the lightning is resolved as hit against the side armor, and the general rulebook (+faq) says that zooming models cannot be hit, isn't that another case of 'advanced' vs 'basic'?
Where does it say in the BRB "zooming models cannot be hit."
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"Ignorance is bliss, and I am a happy man."
"When you claim to be a purple unicorn, and I do not argue with you, it is not because I agree with you."
“If the iron is hot, I desire to believe it is hot, and if it is cool, I desire to believe it is cool.”
"Beware when you find yourself arguing that a policy is defensible rather than optimal; or that it has some benefit compared to the null action, rather than the best benefit of any action." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/05 02:42:03
Subject: Re:Imotekh's lightning Vs flyers
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Grisly Ghost Ark Driver
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The first part of the FAQ update "A: Only Snap Shots can hit..." implies that nothing else can hit, other than snapshots. It specifically uses the word 'hit' rather than 'shots resolved at' (which implies a shooting attack) which is the verbiage of the original 'hard-to-hit' rules-text.
Edit: I see your point about skyfire. However, have you considered that the 'skyfire' grants a specific exception to the 'Hard-to-Hit' rules rather than a precident for any other similar rule-sets?
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This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2012/10/05 02:45:10
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/05 02:50:48
Subject: Re:Imotekh's lightning Vs flyers
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Rough Rider with Boomstick
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Neorealist wrote: However, have you considered that the 'skyfire' grants a specific exception to the 'Hard-to-Hit' rules rather than a precident for any other similar rule-sets?
I did consider it. In the end, I decided that Hard to Hit, the FAQ, and Skyfire all refer only to shooting attacks, which LotS is not. I would be willing to re-consider it, but I'm pretty sure that like Ramming and Carnivorous jungle, LotS generates hits, not attacks.
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"Ignorance is bliss, and I am a happy man."
"When you claim to be a purple unicorn, and I do not argue with you, it is not because I agree with you."
“If the iron is hot, I desire to believe it is hot, and if it is cool, I desire to believe it is cool.”
"Beware when you find yourself arguing that a policy is defensible rather than optimal; or that it has some benefit compared to the null action, rather than the best benefit of any action." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/05 02:52:42
Subject: Imotekh's lightning Vs flyers
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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foolishmortal wrote: DeathReaper wrote: The fact that the rules say that "vehicles are hit on their side armour" means that you have hit a vehicle illegally. as zooming fliers can not be hit unless it is a snap shot. I would have said "zooming fliers can not be hit [by shooting attacks] unless it is a snap shot [or the attacking model has Skyfire or is firing a weapon with Skyfire]." Zooming flyers can not be hit unless it is from a snap shot, or something with the skyfire rule. The Mawlocks Terror from the deep attack is not a shooting attack, but it can not hit a Zooming flyer because it can not make snap shots. The same goes for the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard they do not roll to hit so they can not hit a Zooming Flyer. Remember "any attacks that...create a line of/ area of effect or otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them." The Lightning falls under this category. It creates an area of effect (The battlefield) so the Lightning can not target them. The lightning hits every unit on the battlefield, but you can not target a zooming flyer, so it can not hit the zooming flyer. foolishmortal wrote:I decided that Hard to Hit, the FAQ, and Skyfire all refer only to shooting attacks.
Terror from the Deep is not an "Attack" as defined by the BRB, but it is an attack. It can not hit a Zooming Flyer The Lightning is not an "attack" as defined by the BRB, but it is an attack. It creates an area of effect. so it can not hit a Zooming Flyer. same like the Terror from the Deep rule.
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This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2012/10/05 02:58:19
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/05 03:18:51
Subject: Imotekh's lightning Vs flyers
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Rough Rider with Boomstick
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DeathReaper wrote:
Remember "any attacks that...create a line of/ area of effect or otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them."
The Lightning falls under this category. It creates an area of effect (The battlefield) so the Lightning can not target them.
The lightning hits every unit on the battlefield, but you can not target a zooming flyer, so it can not hit the zooming flyer.
I see what you are saying here and I think it is a valid argument, just not a very persuasive one. Also, you keep leaving in errors that make it even less persuasive.
LotS does not hit "every unit on the battlefield"
LotS does not "target" units.
Anyways, moving on to the valid part... "It creates an area of effect (The battlefield)"
This is something I have not just considered but also posted about in this thread. I do see it as a possibility, I am just not yet persuaded by any sort of rules based argument that I have thought of for it, or I that have seen presented here.
foolishmortal wrote:I decided that Hard to Hit, the FAQ, and Skyfire all refer only to shooting attacks.
DeathReaper wrote:Terror from the Deep is not an "Attack" as defined by the BRB, but it is an attack. It can not hit a Zooming Flyer.
I'm not sure about it being an attack, but it is covered by the Tyranids update as not hitting flyers, Yes.
It's probably worth mentioning that when I said the Faq, as underlined above, I was referring to
Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas.
DeathReaper wrote:The Lightning is not an "attack" as defined by the BRB, but it is an attack. It creates an area of effect. so it can not hit a Zooming Flyer. same like the Terror from the Deep rule.
I don't think it's an attack any more than Carnivorous Jungle generates attacks.
I get why GW ruled that TftD doesn't hit flyers, but do you get that a battlefield wide area of effect might be different than a Large Blast marker area of effect? Again, that's assuming the LotS is an area of effect.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's probably also worth noting that serious people on YMDC probably take the rules of 40k more seriously than most GW employees.
(That's not meant as an insult to them, more as a negative mental health assessment of us)
If I had to bet money on how that TftD faq entry happened, I would guess that either...
a) someone said "of course it doesn't hit flyers, they are flying in the air"
or b) "t says Large Blast Marker, didn't we say something about those not hitting flyers?"
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/10/05 03:26:33
"Ignorance is bliss, and I am a happy man."
"When you claim to be a purple unicorn, and I do not argue with you, it is not because I agree with you."
“If the iron is hot, I desire to believe it is hot, and if it is cool, I desire to believe it is cool.”
"Beware when you find yourself arguing that a policy is defensible rather than optimal; or that it has some benefit compared to the null action, rather than the best benefit of any action." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/05 03:44:38
Subject: Imotekh's lightning Vs flyers
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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"A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures."
How do you dispute this fact?
P.S. Lightning can hit every unit on the battlefield. (Better?)
Lightning does not "Target" units,(as in you do not have to pick a unit to target because it is not a model that is shooting) but it targets every enemy unit.
Anything that has the potential to cause damage is an "attack".
If I had to bet money on how they will faq Lightning I would guess they would take the same stance on it as all other things that have a potential to cause damage to Vehicles, but do not roll to hit.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/05 04:00:10
Subject: Imotekh's lightning Vs flyers
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Rough Rider with Boomstick
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DeathReaper wrote:"A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures."
How do you dispute this fact?
By pointing out that it is a poorly-worded blanket statement in a faq. Easily made clear by the existence of the the Skyfire rule. If you would like to contend that it is not poorly worded, then I would point out that it says "Only Snap Shots" when by context it is referring to "Only [Shooting Attacks making] Snap Shots"
I would say it checks every unengaged enemy unit on the battlefield.
DeathReaper wrote:Lightning does not "Target" units,(as in you do not have to pick a unit to target because it is not a model that is shooting) but it targets every enemy unit.
It just doesn't. It doesn't target, or choose, or select or anything like that.
This is not unreasonable, but without some sort of rules reference or rules based argument, all I see here is an appeal to common sense. I don't recall which of YMDC's posting guidelines that is contrary to, but iirc, it's in there somewhere.  Bottom line, it's not persuasive.
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"Ignorance is bliss, and I am a happy man."
"When you claim to be a purple unicorn, and I do not argue with you, it is not because I agree with you."
“If the iron is hot, I desire to believe it is hot, and if it is cool, I desire to believe it is cool.”
"Beware when you find yourself arguing that a policy is defensible rather than optimal; or that it has some benefit compared to the null action, rather than the best benefit of any action." |
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