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So I think the Helldrakes are pretty cool flyers - some may not agree with me because they have limited firepower and BS 3, but being an Ork player BS 3 is awesome. I wish the Hadesautocannon was TL but it is not. But the swooping attack, it will not die and the ability to have a 5+ invuln and not have to jink is great.... I thought that the autocannon was going to be the only way to go, but I think that the flamer with torrent is pretty cool too and could ever potentially hit multiple vehicles if it is allowed to shoot at other vehicles, but the picture in the book of it blasting a vendetta's cockpit makes it look like you can.... Wondering what people's thoughts were on weapon layout...

It can't fire the flamer at air units for the same reason the Doom Scythe can't hit flyers. It has to roll to hit. The picture is just for fluff.

That said, I'd probably take the flamer anyway. If you want to deal with air units, the Vector Strike is a better bet than the Autocannon (not really that much, but still better), and if you're vector striking then you're flying past the unit you want to kill anyway.

I'd go with the flamer as well. No rolling to hit or scatter or anything like that. You just lay that template down however you like within 12" of the beast.

Here's the thing about the Vector Strike... it's better than most Flying MC's. Daemon Princes are str 6, for pete's sake, and the Heldrake can fly a lot farther and vector strike at str 7.

If you really need a flyer hunter though, take the Autocannon and rely on that Daemonforge ability. Re-rolling your pen will down even a Stormraven.

drbored wrote:


If you really need a flyer hunter though, take the Autocannon and rely on that Daemonforge ability. Re-rolling your pen will down even a Stormraven.

Once per game? And you need a 6 to pen? Yeah, that will work. The dragon is o.k. Nothing special. It certainly won't be challenging vendettas for king of the skies. Its probably better zooming around and flaming infantry units.

The Heldrake's Vector Strike will be great against weak (AV10 and 11) flyers, but against Stormravens and Vendettas the Heldrake will come of much the worse even with a cannon chosen instead of the flamer (and the flamer will make the Heldrake much more effective against ground troops)

The Heldrake is pretty good at an Anti-Infantry role. It can easily destroy troops meant for the sole purpose of back field objective holding or eliminating large foot squads. Its going to force armies to hybridize or go mech again since most lists now are foot based. I think Havocs will be the choice in the Chaos Space Marine codex to deal with Vendettas and Stormravens. The Vector Strike of the Heldrake isn't good against Stormravens and the Autocannon is meh too because of BS3. The Havocs are better against the Stormraven in every situation.

 Blood and Slaughter wrote:
The Heldrake's Vector Strike will be great against weak (AV10 and 11) flyers, but against Stormravens and Vendettas the Heldrake will come of much the worse even with a cannon chosen instead of the flamer (and the flamer will make the Heldrake much more effective against ground troops)

Edit: nevermind.

Outloads?

Kevlar wrote:

drbored wrote:


If you really need a flyer hunter though, take the Autocannon and rely on that Daemonforge ability. Re-rolling your pen will down even a Stormraven.

Once per game? And you need a 6 to pen? Yeah, that will work. The dragon is o.k. Nothing special. It certainly won't be challenging vendettas for king of the skies. Its probably better zooming around and flaming infantry units.

You might wanna check the Hades Cannon again... it's S8. So that's a 5 to pen AV 12. Without the Demonforge you're looking at 66.66% chance of a pen on AV 12 which is more than 7% better than a Tesla Destructor. Using the Demonforge you average 1.112 pens on AV 12 which put's it in the same ballpark as a Vendetta (for one phase). It's also 5 points cheaper than a Havoc squad with 4x ML w/ flakk. The Heldrake is the most efficient and effective Anti-Air CSM have access to in the codex and there isn't much competition for the FA slot. It's also the toughest bird in the air, as it's the only flier that gets a 5+ save without evading. It is however, like every other CSM Vehicle, grotesquely overpriced. I don't think having IWND and a 5++ is worth the 40 points it costs more than a Vendetta.

Yeah I agree on the price... I see the point of the templates, but I do like the Hades autocannon at S8 I think it can deal with flyers, but at BS3 not as well... I think I will still go with the autocannon..

 Tarrasq wrote:

Kevlar wrote:

drbored wrote:


If you really need a flyer hunter though, take the Autocannon and rely on that Daemonforge ability. Re-rolling your pen will down even a Stormraven.

Once per game? And you need a 6 to pen? Yeah, that will work. The dragon is o.k. Nothing special. It certainly won't be challenging vendettas for king of the skies. Its probably better zooming around and flaming infantry units.

You might wanna check the Hades Cannon again... it's S8. So that's a 5 to pen AV 12. Without the Demonforge you're looking at 66.66% chance of a pen on AV 12 which is more than 7% better than a Tesla Destructor. Using the Demonforge you average 1.112 pens on AV 12 which put's it in the same ballpark as a Vendetta (for one phase). It's also 5 points cheaper than a Havoc squad with 4x ML w/ flakk. The Heldrake is the most efficient and effective Anti-Air CSM have access to in the codex and there isn't much competition for the FA slot. It's also the toughest bird in the air, as it's the only flier that gets a 5+ save without evading. It is however, like every other CSM Vehicle, grotesquely overpriced. I don't think having IWND and a 5++ is worth the 40 points it costs more than a Vendetta.

I didn't realize it was S8. That does make it a bit nicer. I still think a havoc squad manning an aegis defense line with quad gun giving the extra man something to do will be my go to anti air. The dragon isn't a bad vehicle, I just think it is better served in the anti infantry role.

As for fast attack, I think it will be quite a competitive slot with bikers being ridiculously under priced, and spawns actually being useful. T6 multi-wound models with decent attacks and now good movement. Think about how tough it is to remove necron tomb spiders. Now we get access to fast ones sort of.

I agree the fast attack slot is a tough one, but I just love flyers, so will probably go with them. I am looking to do a Tzeench themed army, thousand sons are pretty good anti-infantry, I agree a squad of havocs with flakk and someone manning a quad gun is pretty buff

Edit: corrected for Heldrake's 5+ invun

Remember it won't be possible to engage the same enemy with Vector Strike and Hades Cannon. The advantage of a Hades Cannon is that it may be possible to engage two enemy flyers (one with Hades Cannon, one with Vector Strike) but that's it's only advantage; it's otherwise inferior even to the puny 2 dark lance razorwing in hitting power versus flyers.

Chances to destroy are based on a single turn's shooting from the specified flyer and include destruction from multiple glances and penetrations as well as outright explosions. Bear in mind that a stormraven with TL psycannon and TL melta can engage two targets with a better chance of destroying either than a Heldrake. Also note that I haven't factored extra tesla hits so the scythes actually hit a bit harder on average.

Heldrake: Vector Strike - 22% chance to destroy Razorwing (AV10, flickerfield)
Heldrake: Hades Cannon - 20% chance to destroy Razorwing (AV10, flickerfield)
Stormraven: TL multi-melta, TL lascannon - 33% chance to destroy Razorwing (AV10, flickerfield)
Nightwing/scythe: TL tesla - 33% chance to destroy Razorwing (AV10, flickerfield)
Vendetta: 3 TL lascannon - 44% chance to destroy Razorwing (AV10, flickerfield)

Heldrake: Vector Strike - 25% chance to destroy vs Nightwing/scythe (AV11)
Heldrake: Hades Cannon - 25% chance to destroy vs Nightwing/scythe (AV11)
Razorwing: 2 dark lances - 38% chance to destroy vs Nightwing/scythe (AV11)
Stormraven: TL multi-melta, TL lascannon - 54% chance to destroy vs Nightwing/scythe (AV11)
Vendetta: 3 TL lascannon - 56% chance to destroy vs Nightwing/scythe (AV11)

Heldrake: Vector Strike - 11% chance to destroy vs Stormraven (AV12)
Heldrake: Hades Cannon - 15% chance to destroy vs Stormraven (AV12)
Razorwing: 2 dark lances - 19% chance to destroy vs Stormraven (AV12)
Nightwing/scythe: TL tesla - 17% chance to destroy vs Stormraven (AV12)
Vendetta: 3 TL lascannon - 26% chance to destroy vs Stormraven (AV12)

Heldrake: Vector Strike - 11% chance to destroy vs Vendetta (AV12)
Heldrake: Hades Cannon - 15% chance to destroy vs Vendetta (AV12)
Nightwing/scythe: TL tesla - 17% chance to destroy vs Vendetta (AV12)
Razorwing: 2 dark lances - 19% chance to destroy vs Vendetta (AV12)
Stormraven: TL multi-melta, TL lascannon - 49% chance to destroy vs Vendetta (AV12)

Razorwing: 2 dark lances - 10% chance to destroy vs Heldrake (AV12, 5++)
Nightwing/scythe: TL tesla - 15% chance to destroy vs Heldrake (AV12, 5++)
Vendetta: 3 TL lascannon - 26% chance to destroy vs Heldrake (AV12, 5++)
Stormraven: TL multi-melta, TL lascannon - 33% chance to destroy vs Heldrake (AV12, 5++)

The Heldrake is a useful flyer, no doubt. But its strength will be its ability to target flyers via Vector Strike and ground targets via its flamer in the same turn, as dedicated dogfighter, it's back of the pack, even taking into account relative costs.

I see your point... Hmmmmm I think I will magnetize my helldrake so I can swap out depending on what I would like to use. Very good analyzing Blood and Slaughter - much thanks

The numbers are off, the Heldrake has a 5++ save that isn't being factored in.

You're quite right. I was just editing that in, sorry. I'll correct it in the post above asap.

Post now corrected. Still not great for the Helddrake though as a dogfighter, though as I say run with the flamer, it seems very versatile.

thanks for the correction

Yeah, against flyers use its Str7 vector strike and use the Flamer to boil ground targets.

And hey, if enemy flyers go into hover mode you can use the flamer against them there.

Anyone find it funny that the Codex picture of the Helldrake has it actually using its Flamer on another Flyer?

Yes I agree going through a vendetta cockpit. I was hoping for a special rule to include their template to affect flyers... would have been cool

Well who's to say that the Vector Strike does not include use of the flamer?

I don't think everything needs a literal rules interpretation to work fluff-wise.

Or maybe the Vendetta is in Hover mode

Lou_Cypher wrote:
Anyone find it funny that the Codex picture of the Helldrake has it actually using its Flamer on another Flyer?

Its using it on a Valkyrie/Vendetta, which have hover.

If it can Vector Strike a flyer and do automatic hits, the the Flamer does seem like a better option to make it versatile, and thus worth the obscene amount of points. Something that is effective against land units and fliers is worth a bit more in my opinion. However I will also be magnetizing so I can test them both out.

170 points for an AV 12-12-10 5++ flyercapable of Vector Strike and with two weapons options -- one of which is very good indeed -- is hardly 'obscene'.

Dang, its that cheap?

Even the Vendetta might be blushing

I compare it to a 12 12 10 flying transport with 3x TLLC for that can switch to hover to turn 180 for 130 points...and it can squadron.

 Tarrasq wrote:
I compare it to a 12 12 10 flying transport with 3x TLLC for that can switch to hover to turn 180 for 130 points...and it can squadron.

Can that flyer make swoop attacks fire an amazing template weapon while getting a 5++ save without jinking?

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Tarrasq wrote:
I compare it to a 12 12 10 flying transport with 3x TLLC for that can switch to hover to turn 180 for 130 points...and it can squadron.

Can that flyer make swoop attacks fire an amazing template weapon while getting a 5++ save without jinking?

For the love of god no, Vendetta doesnt have to be any better.

And Ward writes the 6th ed IG codex

Where Guardsmen have the Badass special rule. The rule states that every time a Guardsmen dies, roll a D6. On a 5+ the guardsmen is revealed to be a Badass, the model doesn't die and gains a 4+ invulnerable save and the FnP special rule. Their melee and ranged attacks also gain the Rending special rule. Everytime a Badass dies, roll another D6. On a 4+ he actually doesn't die because he was a Badass. On a 1-3 he actually is dead and no amount of plot armor can save him, but he'll make an excellent dramatic moment in the novel

Even their vehicles have the Badass special rule.