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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/06 21:14:11
Subject: The Nine Contradictions
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Old Sourpuss
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KamikazeCanuck wrote:We're all products of our enviroment but I find the circumstances that each Primarch grew up in fascinating. They all became masters of their adopted worlds but each one left it's mark. I think they shaped the Primach's eventual fates more than anything. So perhaps who became a traitor and who did not was really luck of the planetary draw.
Which is something that I find so interesting about the Dornian Heresy, though it does play less on this idea of we are tempted because of how we were raised, but instead of the choices we made as an adult.
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DR:80+S++G+M+B+I+Pwmhd11#++D++A++++/sWD-R++++T(S)DM+

Ask me about Brushfire or Endless: Fantasy Tactics |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/06 21:20:42
Subject: The Nine Contradictions
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[MOD]
Solahma
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Except for Angron, don't forget.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/06 21:23:23
Subject: The Nine Contradictions
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
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He would have if the Emperor came a day or two later.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/06 21:24:25
Subject: The Nine Contradictions
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[MOD]
Solahma
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Nope. Check the fluff. Angron was about to die.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/06 21:27:54
Subject: The Nine Contradictions
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Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries
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Of your original 9 Contradictions, the only one that I find myself fundamentally disagreeing with is your analysis of the Night Lords. I think the fundamental contradiction that tore the Legion (and Curze in particular) apart was that between justice and vengeance. Before the Emperor reclaimed him, Konrad was vigilante seeking to restore order and balance to Nostramo through terror. He killed those who deserved it, and used fear as a tool for good. He was Space Batman.
At first, VIII Legion mirrored that sort of philosophy, using terror to impose the will of the Emperor and avoid future bloodshed. But as time passed, the Night Lords' actions became less and less justified, turning into brutal campaigns that served as little more than a way to displace pent-up rage and frustration felt by the Legion's members. The Legion completed its transition from executioners to murderers with their destruction of their former homeworld.
Ultimately, it wasn't fatalism, or some sense of cosmic inevitability that led Curze to throw his lot in with Horus. It was his anger at what he viewed as hypocrisy on the part of the Emperor in branding his Legion's actions "unjust".
Just my two cents.
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2000-point Tyrant's Legion
1000-point Space Wolves
"Though my guards may sleep and ships may rest at anchor, our foes know full well that big guns never tire." -Lugft Huron, the Tyrant of Badab.
My earthshaker cannons have the accuracy of sniper rifles. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/06 21:28:30
Subject: The Nine Contradictions
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
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Oh, I thought he was snatched away in his moment of victory before he could go on a Spartacus style rampage. That's why he was so angry. I thought he was space-Spartacus. I guess he's just angry because he's ANGRON!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/06 21:45:19
Subject: The Nine Contradictions
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[MOD]
Solahma
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No, he was angry because he was finally free -- even if it was freedom to die, his death was freely chosen. By stealing that from him, the Emperor put him back into chains.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/06 21:46:57
Subject: The Nine Contradictions
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
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Manchu wrote:No, he was angry because he was finally free -- even if it was freedom to die, his death was freely chosen. By stealing that from him, the Emperor put him back into chains.
Also, nails in his brain.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/06 21:48:26
Subject: The Nine Contradictions
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Warp-Screaming Noise Marine
Vancouver, BC
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KamikazeCanuck wrote: Manchu wrote:No, he was angry because he was finally free -- even if it was freedom to die, his death was freely chosen. By stealing that from him, the Emperor put him back into chains.
Also, nails in his brain.
I thought the nails in the brain were because of the arenas?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/06 21:48:55
Subject: The Nine Contradictions
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Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon
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TurtleFlop wrote:Of your original 9 Contradictions, the only one that I find myself fundamentally disagreeing with is your analysis of the Night Lords. I think the fundamental contradiction that tore the Legion (and Curze in particular) apart was that between justice and vengeance. Before the Emperor reclaimed him, Konrad was vigilante seeking to restore order and balance to Nostramo through terror. He killed those who deserved it, and used fear as a tool for good. He was Space Batman.
At first, VIII Legion mirrored that sort of philosophy, using terror to impose the will of the Emperor and avoid future bloodshed. But as time passed, the Night Lords' actions became less and less justified, turning into brutal campaigns that served as little more than a way to displace pent-up rage and frustration felt by the Legion's members. The Legion completed its transition from executioners to murderers with their destruction of their former homeworld.
Ultimately, it wasn't fatalism, or some sense of cosmic inevitability that led Curze to throw his lot in with Horus. It was his anger at what he viewed as hypocrisy on the part of the Emperor in branding his Legion's actions "unjust".
Just my two cents.
Not so sure. I don't see justice or fairness in Kurze's actions on Nostromo, just disproportionate punishments to every slight real or perceived. IMHO his cruelty and madness had driven him close to Chaos even before he took command of the Night Lords.
But you're right in some sense, Kurze is quite the outlier of the bunch. He was never approached by the ruinous powers and went renegade before the Heresy had even gained momentum, so there must be something different to his journey down the slippery slope.
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War does not determine who is right - only who is left. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/06 21:50:41
Subject: The Nine Contradictions
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[MOD]
Solahma
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TurtleFlop wrote:I think the fundamental contradiction that tore the Legion (and Curze in particular) apart was that between justice and vengeance.
I considered that, believe me. But I think that issue is subsumed into the larger problem of Curze's precognition. Like I mentioned above: the law is an attempt to create justice by anticipating crime but crime can only exist because of laws. The major issue with the Night Lords is thus the paradox of recursive causation. Did Curze die because the Imperium sent an assassin or because he let the assassin kill him? Automatically Appended Next Post: True. The Nails are an ancient artefact and the people who implanted them into Angron's brain barely understood them. The Emperor had nothing to do with this as far as anyone knows or can reason.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/06 21:51:59
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/06 21:54:58
Subject: The Nine Contradictions
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
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blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote: KamikazeCanuck wrote: Manchu wrote:No, he was angry because he was finally free -- even if it was freedom to die, his death was freely chosen. By stealing that from him, the Emperor put him back into chains.
Also, nails in his brain.
I thought the nails in the brain were because of the arenas?
Yes, they were implanted to make him a furious beserker. He choose to keep them after being "freed".
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/06 21:55:40
Subject: The Nine Contradictions
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Banelord Titan Princeps of Khorne
Noctis Labyrinthus
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Manchu wrote:No, he was angry because he was finally free -- even if it was freedom to die, his death was freely chosen. By stealing that from him, the Emperor put him back into chains.
Plus there's the whole forced to watch his family die thing.
I think that might have played a small part.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/06 21:56:27
Subject: The Nine Contradictions
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Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries
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Agent_Tremolo wrote:
Not so sure. I don't see justice or fairness in Kurze's actions on Nostromo, just disproportionate punishments to every slight real or perceived. IMHO his cruelty and madness had driven him close to Chaos even before he took command of the Night Lords.
I can't say I agree with that. Even if Curze's "punishments" were violent or extreme, they were never unjustified. His targets were the likes of corrupt politicians, murderers, and street gangers. Even when he became monarch of Nostramo, he was viewed as benevolent by his people, even if his concept of justice was a draconian one.
But he walked a fine line. And I think it was his failure to balance his desire for justice and his passion for vengeance and bloody reprisal that eventually led to his downfall.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/06 21:59:34
2000-point Tyrant's Legion
1000-point Space Wolves
"Though my guards may sleep and ships may rest at anchor, our foes know full well that big guns never tire." -Lugft Huron, the Tyrant of Badab.
My earthshaker cannons have the accuracy of sniper rifles. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/06 21:57:15
Subject: The Nine Contradictions
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Warp-Screaming Noise Marine
Vancouver, BC
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KamikazeCanuck wrote: blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote: KamikazeCanuck wrote: Manchu wrote:No, he was angry because he was finally free -- even if it was freedom to die, his death was freely chosen. By stealing that from him, the Emperor put him back into chains.
Also, nails in his brain.
I thought the nails in the brain were because of the arenas?
Yes, they were implanted to make him a furious beserker. He choose to keep them after being "freed".
Could the nails maybe be seen as a way of "freedom" or rebelling against the emperor? Like a teen would do things harmful to themselves to spite their fathers?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/06 21:58:02
Subject: The Nine Contradictions
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[MOD]
Solahma
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Yes and no. He would never voluntarily get rid of them -- he liked them. But also, Lorgar figured out that removing them would kill him. Automatically Appended Next Post: TurtleFlop wrote:Even when he became monarch of Nostramo, he was viewed as benevolent by his people, even if his concept of justice was a draconian one. IIRC, the people of Nostromo were pleased to be rid of the anarchic crime but they were still terrified of Night Haunter. blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:Could the nails maybe be seen as a way of "freedom" or rebelling against the emperor? Like a teen would do things harmful to themselves to spite their fathers?
The analogy is a little off. Curze and Lorgar are the spiteful ones. Aaron Dembski-Bowden has Angron explain that the Nails give him clarity. My take on this is that Angron can see the nature of the Primarchs more clearly than his brothers: every fibre of their beings is bred for war first and foremost. For the Red Angel, this clarity justifies his lack of restraint. Just as with his prospective death, Angron freely chooses the pain. Pain is not something inflicted upon him; it is something he takes on himself. Automatically Appended Next Post: Void__Dragon wrote:Plus there's the whole forced to watch his family die thing.
I think that might have played a small part. AFAIK, we have no evidence that Angron ever formed intimate friendships with anyone, only that he led a revolt. He watched his loyal army die ... but that's different.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2012/11/06 22:05:20
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/07 00:21:11
Subject: The Nine Contradictions
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
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@Manchu Is that Lorgar info in an HH book or something?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/07 01:01:17
Subject: The Nine Contradictions
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[MOD]
Solahma
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It's in the audio drama Butcher's Nails.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/07 01:26:02
Subject: The Nine Contradictions
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
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I'll have to check that out.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/07 01:27:48
Subject: The Nine Contradictions
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[MOD]
Solahma
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I heartily recommend it!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/07 02:17:26
Subject: Re:The Nine Contradictions
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Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control
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I'll have to check that out as well.
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Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.
>Raptors Lead the Way < |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/07 04:02:00
Subject: The Nine Contradictions
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Banelord Titan Princeps of Khorne
Noctis Labyrinthus
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Manchu wrote:AFAIK, we have no evidence that Angron ever formed intimate friendships with anyone, only that he led a revolt. He watched his loyal army die ... but that's different.
After De'Shea, a short story in Tales of Heresy by Matthew Farrer, made it very clear that Angron cared about those that fought and died beside him.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/07 04:39:45
Subject: The Nine Contradictions
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[MOD]
Solahma
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It's been a long time since I read that and don't have a copy to hand. I can't recall exactly what you are referring to, either. I mean, I remember he was angry ...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/07 04:53:19
Subject: The Nine Contradictions
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Banelord Titan Princeps of Khorne
Noctis Labyrinthus
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Well for one thing, he continuously lamented the fate of his "brothers and sisters" (He thought of the fellow slaves as siblings), and, though certainly furious beyond measure, it masked a deep sorrow.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/07 04:57:47
Subject: The Nine Contradictions
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[MOD]
Solahma
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Right, what I'm getting at is the difference between having actual friends -- you know, individual personalities -- as opposed to a "beloved army."
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/07 04:57:55
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/07 06:46:47
Subject: The Nine Contradictions
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
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I think void dragon is right, he considered them his brothers in arms. Many Primarchs got to take their comrades and let them join the legions they were reunited with. Angron was denied that.
No matter what happened with all the other legions Angron was always going to turn on the Emperor. He should have put him down instead of just taking off.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/07 09:52:28
Subject: The Nine Contradictions
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Banelord Titan Princeps of Khorne
Noctis Labyrinthus
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Manchu wrote:Right, what I'm getting at is the difference between having actual friends -- you know, individual personalities -- as opposed to a "beloved army."
We don't know how Angron treated individual slaves under his banner since they were sort of, well, dead by the time After De'Shea starts.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/07 10:54:23
Subject: The Nine Contradictions
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Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential
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Alfndrate wrote: Seb wrote:I have a 10th contradiction.
A full SM tactical squad vs. a Rhino's dimension.
Not sure if you're missing the point, or if you're just trying for cheap laughs...
Cheap laugh, obviously. I damn you for forcing me to use my brain.
Manchu wrote:XII. World Eaters: Slavery v. Freedom
The Emperor denied Angron the gladiator-slave his freely-chosen death such that the word Primarch seemed but another shackle. The Red Angel re-made the XII Legion to throw off restraint in the fires of rage, thus dooming them to serve the Blood God.
XV. Thousand Sons: Knowledge v. Ignorance
The mind of Magnus sought the farthest corners of both Materium and Immaterium yet what the Cyclops failed to learn overshadowed everything he managed to glean. The fruit as well as the dearth of his efforts cost the Thousand Sons dearly.
XVI. Sons of Horus: Loyalty v. Treachery
Of all his brothers, none so comprehended the grand sweep of their father's ambition as Horus Lupercal did. Believing that the Emperor intended to betray these goals, the Warmaster of needs rebelled and his devoted Sons pledged themselves to eternal revolt.
XVII. Word Bearers: Faith v. Doubt
In rejecting the adoration of Lorgar, the Emperor proved how fragile the Primarch's beliefs really were. At the center of the Word Bearers fanatical devotion to Chaos remains an infinitely bitter misgiving that Aurellian was originally correct.
This was well thought trough, but IMHO, trying to force a "contradiction" led to forced interpretation - again IMHO those I quoted.
World Eaters : I think the point is much simpler than that. You need to have simple people that live by simple rules. Agron, I think, is one of them. He needs to spill blood, and he found someone (Horus) and something (Khorne) that showed more appreciation than his 'father'. I think there was no grand debate or morale longing here. Angron lives through a mean (blood spilling), not an end.
Thousand Sons : I have a special kindness for these guys. And I think the story is not of contradiction, but about sacrifice. Considering Magnus attitude during the space wolves purge, I think he knew what was coming, and he thought the sacrifice was worth the risk (and I tend to agree). I find this guy was the most balanced and humane of the primarchs, which made him an obvious target for that kind of end.
Sons of Horus : I think there is no contradiction here. It is the story of the talented prince that wants to be king, with a twist (Erebus treachery).
Word Bearers : I agree that there is contradiction here, but it does not come from the legion, but from the Emperor. Lorgar is a zealot, in every fanatic sense of the term. He needs something to worship. At the time of the Heresy, the Emperor decides he cannot be worshipped and humiliate Lorgar in front of everyone. Like Angron, Lorgar lives through a mean (zeal, faith) and not an end. So he adapted the end he needed to apply his mean and found something else he thought was better suited (namely the ruinous powers). And his faith in the emperor stays as strong as ever, it only mutates into hate.
Like Angron, the important thing here for Lorgar is to have faith and zeal, not the object of those. Kind of those people that love to be in love more than the object of love.
Only my opinion.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/07 12:28:34
Subject: The Nine Contradictions
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Steadfast Grey Hunter
Can't tell you. It's a secret...
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Seb wrote:
Word Bearers : I agree that there is contradiction here, but it does not come from the legion, but from the Emperor. Lorgar is a zealot, in every fanatic sense of the term. He needs something to worship. At the time of the Heresy, the Emperor decides he cannot be worshipped and humiliate Lorgar in front of everyone. Like Angron, Lorgar lives through a mean (zeal, faith) and not an end. So he adapted the end he needed to apply his mean and found something else he thought was better suited (namely the ruinous powers). And his faith in the emperor stays as strong as ever, it only mutates into hate.
Like Angron, the important thing here for Lorgar is to have faith and zeal, not the object of those. Kind of those people that love to be in love more than the object of love.
I will disagree on that. The emperor always claimed that he is not a god and does not need worship. Before he even discovered Lorgar he preached about atheism and atheistic societies.
So, when he did find out that Lorgar was worshiping him did he care?
Yes he did.
Did they had an argument over this?
Plenty of times as it is hinted by the First Heretic book.
Did it impede Lorgar's progress?
It did.
So the emperor thought since words failed me actions will not. Unfortunately, in hindsight, he should have sticked to the arguments
Back now to the OP, I think it is a very good analysis.
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Don't grow up!!!
It's a TRAP!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/07 14:45:24
Subject: The Nine Contradictions
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[MOD]
Solahma
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Void__Dragon wrote:We don't know how Angron treated individual slaves under his banner since they were sort of, well, dead by the time After De'Shea starts.
Yes, and how many of those under his banner did he particularly mention? I feel like you're purposely talking past me. It's one thing to have strong feelings for a social movement and quite a different thing to have friendships or other personal affections. Automatically Appended Next Post: Seb wrote:I think there was no grand debate or morale longing here. Angron lives through a mean (blood spilling), not an end.
You make an interesting distinction between Angron and his brothers in that Angron cared more for means than ends. I kind of agree, inasmuch as it highlights that the Red Angel sought freedom from restraint rather than some discrete goal -- but if you listen to Butcher's Nails, you'll see that such freedom is an end in itself for Angron. Seb wrote:And I think the story is not of contradiction, but about sacrifice. Considering Magnus attitude during the space wolves purge, I think he knew what was coming, and he thought the sacrifice was worth the risk (and I tend to agree).
Magnus is probably my favorite Primarch. But his cost/benefit calculation regarding the message to Terra was objectively wrong. Even if some part of him viewed it as self-sacrifice, the truth is that Magnus had never obeyed the Council of Nikaea. I cannot believe that he was just trying to save his father; rather, I think he was trying to prove the Emperor wrong by sending him vital information via sorcery. If the information saved the Emperor, as Magnus believed it would, then he reasoned that the Emperor would see the folly of banning magical studies. But what Magnus did not know is that his message would sunder the palace wards at a critical moment. So actually this is yet another example of how Magnus's fate is bound up in the contradiction between knowledge and ignorance. Seb wrote:It is the story of the talented prince that wants to be king, with a twist (Erebus treachery).
Horus did not always want "to be king" and, for better or for worse, this doesn't appear to be a strong motive for his actions during the Heresy. As I mentioned elsewhere, it's difficult to really know why he's doing this. But what led him into betrayal of the Emperor was his anger at the Emperor's prospective betrayal of humanity. Seb wrote:I agree that there is contradiction here, but it does not come from the legion, but from the Emperor.
No, the Emperor is clear: "I am awesome but you won't build up a Church in my name." The problem is with how Lorgar responds to this -- he's only hurt by it because he truly believes the Emperor is divine. If he didn't believe that then his humbling on Monarchia would have been far less humiliating and psychologically cataclysmic. At the same time, Monarchia widened a tiny doubt in Lorgar's mind, a suspicion that there were more powers in the galaxy than the Emperor. When he found them, he also found a new faith. Yet now there was a little doubt about them, too, a creeping suspicion that he was right (or closer to right) the first time Automatically Appended Next Post: Bobakos wrote:So the emperor thought since words failed me actions will not. Unfortunately, in hindsight, he should have sticked to the arguments
One wonders what Konrad Curze would say about that. Was there really anything that would have prevented Lorgar's fall?
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/11/07 15:01:08
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