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Heyo!

Was playing a game with a guy last night who ran his Deathwing (4 units) plus belial and a librarian and 2 landspeeders. He said that he could use drop pods with deathwing assault, and he, on the first turn, launched 2 drop pods and teleported a squad on top of my poor defenseless Tau. When i asked him about the whole rule, he said it was half his pods rounded up, and he had an EMPTY pod, which of course he rolled for on turn 2. Something just dosent seem right. My later assessment, and when i actually started to make my brain process this, aided by a read of the codex, brought me to 2 points.

1. he did not count his ICs

2. I cant see anywhere that he can use drop pods with DWA, as he does not have drop pod assualt like C:SM. This would make it so that all DA drop pods must be rolled out of reserves like any other reserve unit?

Could anyone clarify this?

You were screwed. DA terminators cannot take drop pods and even if they could the DA ones lack the drop pod assault rule.

Half his DW units rounded up in reserve can come in turn 1. If ICs are attached they don't change this count per se (although I think Belial has deathwing assault so he can be counted if DSing alone). The trick is how this works in 6ed since half your units have to be deployed. Assuming the army is composed as described (although without the pods he has points to spend) he has 8 units, so 4 units are suppose to be deployed initially turn 1. Its that bit that I am sure led him to try and use drop pods (whether cheating or ill informed I would not say.

However, he could do something similar to what you describe using allies if he wanted to do it legally, just FYI

Not true when it comes to terminators - the DA ones, for example - that have the rule that they may ALWAYS start the game in reserve

An army composed of JUST terminators can all start in reserve, if they wish, and as they are DW terminators half will turn up turn 1

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Not true when it comes to terminators - the DA ones, for example - that have the rule that they may ALWAYS start the game in reserve

An army composed of JUST terminators can all start in reserve, if they wish, and as they are DW terminators half will turn up turn 1

6th edition rules are a bit nutty, but that's what I'm making out of it as well.

 winterman wrote:
You were screwed. DA terminators cannot take drop pods and even if they could the DA ones lack the drop pod assault rule.

Half his DW units rounded up in reserve can come in turn 1. If ICs are attached they don't change this count per se (although I think Belial has deathwing assault so he can be counted if DSing alone). The trick is how this works in 6ed since half your units have to be deployed. Assuming the army is composed as described (although without the pods he has points to spend) he has 8 units, so 4 units are suppose to be deployed initially turn 1. Its that bit that I am sure led him to try and use drop pods (whether cheating or ill informed I would not say.

However, he could do something similar to what you describe using allies if he wanted to do it legally, just FYI

I believe in this case its an example of Codex > BRB.

Deathwing Assault - as its currently written - clearly says "...you may choose to put it on the table or in reserve...". The player can put all the terminators in reserve, then in turn 1 Deathwing Assault half of them (rounding up). Or they can deploy a portion of the terminators as normal in turn 1, and then any terminator squads held in reserve can use the Deathwing Assault rules (half of those in reserve can deep strike in on turn one).

The Deathwing Assault rules only apply to Deathwing units. So any non-Deathwing squads that you include in your army would follow the normal BRB 6th ed. reserve rules, which is written clearly regarding this. "Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purpose of working out how many other units may do so. Since you can only Deathwing Assault from reserve, if you're using the Deathwing Assult rule, those units doing so get ignored for the rest of the army's reserve choices.

On the subject of IC's, if they're using the Deathwing Assualt rules, they're ignored for counting.

On the drop pod - Only Deathwing Terminators have the Deathwing Assault special rule. And as they cannot take Drop Pods - its not possible. The only way to get Deathwing Assualt on a non-Terminator unit is to have an IC in Terminator join that squad.

You were extremely screwed. This makes me pretty angry as a Dark Angels player.

Our drop pods are not a dedicated transport for terminators, and they definitely do NOT benefit from DWA. Furthermore, we don't even have Drop-pod Assault so they come in at earliest turn 2.

Though I would sorely like it to read otherwise, I have been playing DWA as a "may" go into reserve meaning they still count for half your army on the board. Unless I'm playing it wrong, that means that even Belial counts and half of the units must be on the board. For DWA, he does not change the "half rounding up" that are allowed to deep strike, but he still counts for the BRB reserves.

You aren't playing against a guy named Mitch are you...? He pull this kind of bs all the time at our local store.

On the drop pod - Only Deathwing Terminators have the Deathwing Assault special rule. And as they cannot take Drop Pods - its not possible. The only way to get Deathwing Assualt on a non-Terminator unit is to have an IC in Terminator join that squad.

This was another part i was curious about, i was under the impression that ICs could grant their special abilities (infiltrate, scout, etc.) to a squad they are attached to, not the other way around, meaning that his librarian would not have been able to deathwing assault! Not to mention that fact that DA drop pods do not have the drop pod assault rule.

Also, anyone have a ruling on empty drop pods, and whether or not it would count toward "drop pod assault" (which was not legal in this case, but in general)

generalchaos34 wrote:

On the drop pod - Only Deathwing Terminators have the Deathwing Assault special rule. And as they cannot take Drop Pods - its not possible. The only way to get Deathwing Assualt on a non-Terminator unit is to have an IC in Terminator join that squad.

This was another part i was curious about, i was under the impression that ICs could grant their special abilities (infiltrate, scout, etc.) to a squad they are attached to, not the other way around, meaning that his librarian would not have been able to deathwing assault! Not to mention that fact that DA drop pods do not have the drop pod assault rule.

Also, anyone have a ruling on empty drop pods, and whether or not it would count toward "drop pod assault" (which was not legal in this case, but in general)

Yes empty pods count for drop pod assault.

Also worth noting the IC becomes a part of the squad for all rules purposes. As long as he can DS IE: Termy armor it should work fine

I find it odd that Belial does not have the deathwing assault special rule, being the master of the deathwing and all...

Although if he did you could attach him to a 5 man command squad with a dedicated drop pod transport and attempt to pull off a deathwing assault that way. Lol

There is a new codex in the works, so who knows what is coming. The rumors list dreadnoughts as deathwing assault units... Yes please!

I'm also reading it as a may choose to DWA, so I have to put something on the table so that I can reserve 1/2 my army.

Curious to see if someone can convince me that electing to take advantage of DWA means they must be in reserves, and would allow me to reserve everything.

On another note, if I combat squad a unit, does that count as 2 for the purposes of units on the board? IE: if I take a tac squad, combat squad it, would that let me put two deathwing squads in reserves, or just one?

 piping_piper wrote:
I'm also reading it as a may choose to DWA, so I have to put something on the table so that I can reserve 1/2 my army.

Curious to see if someone can convince me that electing to take advantage of DWA means they must be in reserves, and would allow me to reserve everything.

On another note, if I combat squad a unit, does that count as 2 for the purposes of units on the board? IE: if I take a tac squad, combat squad it, would that let me put two deathwing squads in reserves, or just one?

DWA states IIRC it may always start the game in reserve.

If a conflict is caused the Codex trumps BGB.

Is there a conflict in between may always, and must. Yes. So the codex would trump.

 piping_piper wrote:
I'm also reading it as a may choose to DWA, so I have to put something on the table so that I can reserve 1/2 my army.

Curious to see if someone can convince me that electing to take advantage of DWA means they must be in reserves, and would allow me to reserve everything.

On another note, if I combat squad a unit, does that count as 2 for the purposes of units on the board? IE: if I take a tac squad, combat squad it, would that let me put two deathwing squads in reserves, or just one?

I agree, it says thats they MAY, meaning not MUST, which is what the BRB says is the only exception. ive felt that because you can choose on how you do DWA, its counting toward your 50%. Flyers and units in flyers do not count because theyre no way to get them in on turn one, EVER.

generalchaos34 wrote:

 piping_piper wrote:
I'm also reading it as a may choose to DWA, so I have to put something on the table so that I can reserve 1/2 my army.

Curious to see if someone can convince me that electing to take advantage of DWA means they must be in reserves, and would allow me to reserve everything.

On another note, if I combat squad a unit, does that count as 2 for the purposes of units on the board? IE: if I take a tac squad, combat squad it, would that let me put two deathwing squads in reserves, or just one?

I agree, it says thats they MAY, meaning not MUST, which is what the BRB says is the only exception. ive felt that because you can choose on how you do DWA, its counting toward your 50%. Flyers and units in flyers do not count because theyre no way to get them in on turn one, EVER.

Units in flyers could be deployed outside of them. Look found a way.

I don't have the DA codex, however if it states "may always" it trumps the Rulebook there

I have the DA Codex. It says as I quoted above - "...you may choose to put it on the table or in reserve..."

The 6th BRB also accounts for this with the "Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purpose of working out how many other units may do so"

If you deploy DW units normally (no DWA) you count them towards the BRB reserve 50% rule.

If you DWA units, they do not count towards the BRB 50% reserve rule.

So only units coming in on turn 1 using DWA are excluded from the 6th BRB 50% reserve rule (I think?). Which actually makes sense in the overall concept of the BRB 50% reserve rule.

If you have 100% DWA army - 50% of your army will be on the table in turn 1, and the rest coming in later. Which is effectively what happens outside of a DWA army anyway. And with the DWA turn 1 units being on the table and not counting towards the 50% rule, it covers the "no more than 50% will be held in reserve" requirement of the BRB rule.

Sorry for the long winded post...

fursphere wrote:
I have the DA Codex. It says as I quoted above - "...you may choose to put it on the table or in reserve..."

The 6th BRB also accounts for this with the "Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purpose of working out how many other units may do so"

If you deploy DW units normally (no DWA) you count them towards the BRB reserve 50% rule.

If you DWA units, they do not count towards the BRB 50% reserve rule.

So only units coming in on turn 1 using DWA are excluded from the 6th BRB 50% reserve rule (I think?). Which actually makes sense in the overall concept of the BRB 50% reserve rule.

If you have 100% DWA army - 50% of your army will be on the table in turn 1, and the rest coming in later. Which is effectively what happens outside of a DWA army anyway. And with the DWA turn 1 units being on the table and not counting towards the 50% rule, it covers the "no more than 50% will be held in reserve" requirement of the BRB rule.

Sorry for the long winded post...

I can agree with that, kinda like an if/then type deal. Regardless, i got boned by the guy using drop pods as if they had drop pod assault (otherwise he would have mishapped since the first one landed on top of my hammerhead.

We got screwed! Tricksy little Dark Angel, sneaking abouts

generalchaos34 wrote:
i got boned by the guy using drop pods as if they had drop pod assault (otherwise he would have mishapped since the first one landed on top of my hammerhead.

How so, did he place the drop pod on top of the hammerhead to begin with?

fursphere wrote:
I have the DA Codex. It says as I quoted above - "...you may choose to put it on the table or in reserve..."

The 6th BRB also accounts for this with the "Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purpose of working out how many other units may do so"

If you deploy DW units normally (no DWA) you count them towards the BRB reserve 50% rule.

If you DWA units, they do not count towards the BRB 50% reserve rule.

So only units coming in on turn 1 using DWA are excluded from the 6th BRB 50% reserve rule (I think?). Which actually makes sense in the overall concept of the BRB 50% reserve rule.

If you have 100% DWA army - 50% of your army will be on the table in turn 1, and the rest coming in later. Which is effectively what happens outside of a DWA army anyway. And with the DWA turn 1 units being on the table and not counting towards the 50% rule, it covers the "no more than 50% will be held in reserve" requirement of the BRB rule.

Sorry for the long winded post...

I'm still not convinced a 100% deathwing army is legal anymore. The wording "may be put into reserves" is the deal breaker for me. I'd love it to not be true however.

 DeathReaper wrote:

generalchaos34 wrote:
i got boned by the guy using drop pods as if they had drop pod assault (otherwise he would have mishapped since the first one landed on top of my hammerhead.

How so, did he place the drop pod on top of the hammerhead to begin with?

I meant the scatter landed him there, then the drop pod dropped next to the hammer head due to the inertial guidance system from itself.

The way I read it is, If you have the DWA they can always be put into reserve, no matter what. If you have 100% DWA models then 100% of your army can be ni reserve. However, they count towards your maximum reserves when they do.

People find my thought process convoluted sometimes so if you have trouble keeping up your not the only one. This is where things get wierd.

75% of your army has DWA, you can have all 75% in reserve, but nothing else.

75% have DWA, you decide to reserve 30%, meaning 20% more (wihtout DWA) can be reserved.

99% have DWA, meaning 99% can be in reserve, but if you have 50% or more of those models in reserve, the remaining 1% cannot be in reserve.

Anyone able to follow that?

So, I assume none of you have ever actually read the codex?

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
The way I read it is, If you have the DWA they can always be put into reserve, no matter what. If you have 100% DWA models then 100% of your army can be ni reserve. However, they count towards your maximum reserves when they do.

People find my thought process convoluted sometimes so if you have trouble keeping up your not the only one. This is where things get wierd.

75% of your army has DWA, you can have all 75% in reserve, but nothing else.

75% have DWA, you decide to reserve 30%, meaning 20% more (wihtout DWA) can be reserved.

99% have DWA, meaning 99% can be in reserve, but if you have 50% or more of those models in reserve, the remaining 1% cannot be in reserve.

Anyone able to follow that?

I can see where youre going, but let us not forget about having zero models on the field = surrender! I believe the only army that gets around that is Daemons, but thats part of their codex rules.

Of course this rule was designed to stop necron flyer spam

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
So, I assume none of you have ever actually read the codex?

Perhaps you'd like to make a point instead of poorly mocking others?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

generalchaos34 wrote:

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
The way I read it is, If you have the DWA they can always be put into reserve, no matter what. If you have 100% DWA models then 100% of your army can be ni reserve. However, they count towards your maximum reserves when they do.

People find my thought process convoluted sometimes so if you have trouble keeping up your not the only one. This is where things get wierd.

75% of your army has DWA, you can have all 75% in reserve, but nothing else.

75% have DWA, you decide to reserve 30%, meaning 20% more (wihtout DWA) can be reserved.

99% have DWA, meaning 99% can be in reserve, but if you have 50% or more of those models in reserve, the remaining 1% cannot be in reserve.

Anyone able to follow that?

I can see where youre going, but let us not forget about having zero models on the field = surrender! I believe the only army that gets around that is Daemons, but thats part of their codex rules.

Of course this rule was designed to stop necron flyer spam

No models on the board at the end of game turn 1. DW goes second, drops some termies on the board and poof.... No surrender.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
So, I assume none of you have ever actually read the codex?

Just as I assume you have never read the tenets of YMDC as you have posted a comment that dosent contribute to the discussion and is meant only to inflame.

We are interpreting what information we are given. If you can present your argument in a reasonable manner, by all means, be my guest.

I see what you're saying, that DWA assault lets you put them in reserve no matter what, and how it would interact with putting anything else into reserve.
I'm not sure how that interacts with the new reserve rules though? BRB says up to 50% may be reserved, codex says you can put terminators in reserve, and once there do a cool assault...

I'm not seeing the case for DWA letting you exceed the 50% rule.

It says you MAY place them in reserve. Thats the only reasoning I see. I feel like that is permission enough, but then again I could be mistaken.

rigeld2 wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
So, I assume none of you have ever actually read the codex?

Perhaps you'd like to make a point instead of poorly mocking others?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

generalchaos34 wrote:

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
The way I read it is, If you have the DWA they can always be put into reserve, no matter what. If you have 100% DWA models then 100% of your army can be ni reserve. However, they count towards your maximum reserves when they do.

People find my thought process convoluted sometimes so if you have trouble keeping up your not the only one. This is where things get wierd.

75% of your army has DWA, you can have all 75% in reserve, but nothing else.

75% have DWA, you decide to reserve 30%, meaning 20% more (wihtout DWA) can be reserved.

99% have DWA, meaning 99% can be in reserve, but if you have 50% or more of those models in reserve, the remaining 1% cannot be in reserve.

Anyone able to follow that?

I can see where youre going, but let us not forget about having zero models on the field = surrender! I believe the only army that gets around that is Daemons, but thats part of their codex rules.

Of course this rule was designed to stop necron flyer spam

No models on the board at the end of game turn 1. DW goes second, drops some termies on the board and poof.... No surrender.

Ahhh, i didnt make that distinction when i was reading the rule, it was the end of the turn, my bad

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
So, I assume none of you have ever actually read the codex?

Just as I assume you have never read the tenets of YMDC as you have posted a comment that dosent contribute to the discussion and is meant only to inflame.

We are interpreting what information we are given. If you can present your argument in a reasonable manner, by all means, be my guest.

So how is the Deathwing Assault rule that difficult to interpret? It doesn't give a sliding scale of reserves or deployments, nor does it allow drop pod assaults. Its actually pretty simple to resolve with the new reserves rule. Are you telling me people will run nothing but unprotected terminators in reserve? No heavy weapons? No Land Raiders? If you hold everything back when you lose the initiative roll, and there is nothing on the board, you lose. Especially since it means you are dropping completely unsupported terminators.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
So, I assume none of you have ever actually read the codex?

Just as I assume you have never read the tenets of YMDC as you have posted a comment that dosent contribute to the discussion and is meant only to inflame.

We are interpreting what information we are given. If you can present your argument in a reasonable manner, by all means, be my guest.

So how is the Deathwing Assault rule that difficult to interpret? It doesn't give a sliding scale of reserves or deployments, nor does it allow drop pod assaults. Its actually pretty simple to resolve with the new reserves rule. Are you telling me people will run nothing but unprotected terminators in reserve? No heavy weapons? No Land Raiders? If you hold everything back when you lose the initiative roll, and there is nothing on the board, you lose. Especially since it means you are dropping completely unsupported terminators.

You lose the game at the end of the Game turn. So if your playing lets say Daemons, if you go second you would only lose if you mishapped everything.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
So, I assume none of you have ever actually read the codex?

Just as I assume you have never read the tenets of YMDC as you have posted a comment that dosent contribute to the discussion and is meant only to inflame.

We are interpreting what information we are given. If you can present your argument in a reasonable manner, by all means, be my guest.

So how is the Deathwing Assault rule that difficult to interpret? It doesn't give a sliding scale of reserves or deployments, nor does it allow drop pod assaults. Its actually pretty simple to resolve with the new reserves rule. Are you telling me people will run nothing but unprotected terminators in reserve? No heavy weapons? No Land Raiders? If you hold everything back when you lose the initiative roll, and there is nothing on the board, you lose. Especially since it means you are dropping completely unsupported terminators.

My uncle has done it for years with great success. Especially with power/force weapons the way they are now, high volume ap2 is hard to come by. Add few TH-SS terminators and now armor isint a problem. Almost no army is going to be able to handle 30+ terminators in their battlelines turn 1.