CSM Replace Bike Weapon

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**nosferatu1001**

I dont see any reason you could not replace ghe weapon; it is a weapon that the lord has, its just attached to a fething great bike. I expectg they will faq otherwise though...

**SoloFalcon1138**

No, wrong again, Nos. Chaos lords have to buy their combi-bolters, as well as the bikes they could ride. With bikes granting relentless to the riders, that is a hand-held and a bike-mounted set of bolter shots flying out, two rapid fire weapons, just like other codexes.

And another fallacy of the OP... just because chaos bikera may take add-on weapons, does not grant the chaos lord the same option. That's like saying because an h-k missile may be given to the ironclad dreadnought, the others can get one, too.

**nosferatu1001**

"Wrong again"? Wow, great way to start an argument.

You didnt actually address the argument at all. You did not address that the TL-bolters are indeed a weapon, a weapon that the lord has, and can therefore be replced.

Please, do so. Please argue the actual rules, as you have yet to do so.

**jdjamesdean@mail.com**

nosferatu1001 wrote:
"Wrong again"? Wow, great way to start an argument.

You didnt actually address the argument at all. You did not address that the TL-bolters are indeed a weapon, a weapon that the lord has, and can therefore be replced.

Please, do so. Please argue the actual rules, as you have yet to do so.

I see it as the Lord has a bike equipped with T/L bolters. Guess it could just be semantics.

**nosferatu1001**

The lord has a bike that has TL Bolters. The lord has, transitively, bolters.

**SoloFalcon1138**

The lord's bike has TL-bolters, the lord himself, just comes with a pistol. The upgraded weapons options replace the pistol or close-combat weapon, correct?

**nosferatu1001**

No, it states (as has been stated a few times now) the lords weapons. They do not specify bolt pistol / chainsword.

So the lord has tl-bolters, because his bike does. These are weapons. These can be exchanged

Prove otherwise.

**Eyjio**

What nos said. For the full reasoning why treating them as separate entities fails, check my post bottom of page 1. I'm not saying it's a definite yes but that point cannot work. The wargear says any weapon so it's hard to see how the tl boltgun doesn't count.

**jmurph**

To argue that you cannot replace the bike combi-bolter is to argue it is not one of the Chaos Lord's weapons and, therefore, he cannot fire it anyway.

**jdjamesdean@mail.com**

jmurph wrote:
To argue that you cannot replace the bike combi-bolter is to argue it is not one of the Chaos Lord's weapons and, therefore, he cannot fire it anyway.

Guess it can't fire than.

Pg 45 BGB " Each bike ... in a unit can fire with one weapon for each rider on the bike"

**nosferatu1001**

That just says how many weapons you can fire; it does not say who has to have the weapon.

**Eyjio**

The bike has permission to fire. It does not have permission to use the riders BS. Saying the bike is separate means it can never shoot as it is BS-.

**UberhAxTHC**

I say yes, for two reasons.

First off, why the hell not? Exactly what kind of an unfair advantage do you gain if you're allowed to do this?

Second, it just makes sense. You're telling me a Chaos lord would never rip the bolters off his bike and replace them with flamers, just to be more terrifying? Are you kidding me? That sounds freaking awesome.

**Vindicare-Obsession**

It definately fits in the fluff. I feel like the RAW argument could go either way, The real question for the RAW is "Is the weapon on the bike considered to be the bikes? or is it the lords?"

**jdjamesdean@mail.com**

nosferatu1001 wrote:
That just says how many weapons you can fire; it does not say who has to have the weapon.

It does say the bike can fire, not the rider. Odd wording eh

**Vindicare-Obsession**

Irrelevant wording, regardless of how odd it is.
It does not describe the weapon belonging to the bike, and since it is purchased as part of the wargear FOR the lord, it is a piece of wargear that belongs to the lord and can be exchanged as such.

**Avatar 720**

Lobukia wrote:
Avatar 720 wrote:
I didn't contest that the bike didn't have allowance to fire, only the fact that its lack of BS prevents it from doing so.

My bolter doesn't have a listed BS either, and its wargear. My powersword doesn't have a WS listed... so either no wargear can use its weapon properties, or they all can

You're misinterpretting what I said; I'm not saying the weapons themselves need BS values, I'm saying that the bike would, since, as has been quoted many times, the bike is the one that has allowance to fire a weapon, not its rider.

Either the TL bolter on the bike actually does belong to the lord, and he can therefore switch it out (or fire it using his BS, since it would be his weapon), or the TL bolter belongs to the bike, in which case it cannot ever be used due to the bike not having a BS value with which to fire it.

**Grey Templar**

Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
It definately fits in the fluff. I feel like the RAW argument could go either way, The real question for the RAW is "Is the weapon on the bike considered to be the bikes? or is it the lords?"

Well, we have 2 options and 2 very different results from those options.

1) The bolters are the Bikes weapon and cannot be replaced. This, however, means that the Lord cannot EVER shoot the bolters because they arn't his weapon to shoot. The bike can shoot them, but sadly has no BS.

2) The Bike and the Bolters on the Bike belong to the Lord. He can thus rip the bolters off and stick whatever the hell he wants in their place, and he can shoot the weapon.

One of the options makes sense and doesn't cause the rules to break.

**DeathReaper**

Grey Templar wrote:
1) The bolters are the Bikes weapon and cannot be replaced. This, however, means that the Lord cannot EVER shoot the bolters because they arn't his weapon to shoot. The bike can shoot them, but sadly has no BS.

Why can't he shoot the bikes weapon?

Nothing in the Shooting section restricts it, and the Bike section allows each rider to shoot one weapon.

**Grey Templar**

Actually, it says you can shoot one weapon per rider. Not each rider can shoot one weapon.

**DeathReaper**

Right, "Each Bike or Jetbike in a unit can fire with one weapon for each rider on the Bike." (AKA each rider can shoot one weapon.)

Why can't he shoot the bikes weapon?

Nothing in the Shooting section restricts it.

**Grey Templar**

Because, as people are arguing here, the Lord actually doesn't have the weapon. The Bike does.

The only way the lord can shoot the Bikes weapon is if he owns it. And by extension if he owns it it MUST be a legal option for swapping for a different weapon.

**DeathReaper**

Grey Templar wrote:
The only way the lord can shoot the Bikes weapon is if he owns it.

Got a rules quote that confirms this?

**Grey Templar**

Got a rules quote that says he can just shoot any weapon he wants?

Models can only shoot weapons they are equipped with, or a Gun Emplacement or Emplaced Gun.

**DeathReaper**

Grey Templar wrote:

Models can only shoot weapons they are equipped with.

Again where does it say this?

**Grey Templar**

DeathReaper wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:

Models can only shoot weapons they are equipped with.

Again where does it say this?

Page 12. Nominating units to shoot.

"During the Shooting Phase, a unit containing models armed with ranged weapons can be nominated to make shooting attacks."

As the lord is not armed with a TL-bolter, by your assertion that it is the bike's weapon, he clearly cannot fire it.

This is clearly rediclous. Thus the Lord is armed with a TL-bolter when he purchases a bike. And thus is a weapon he can trade out.

**DeathReaper**

That quote does not say "Models can only shoot weapons they are equipped with."

It just says that "a unit containing models armed with ranged weapons can be nominated to make shooting attacks"

Nominating a unit to shoot is the first step in the shooting sequence on P. 12.

Do you have a quote that says:

Grey Templar wrote:

Models can only shoot weapons they are equipped with.

**Grey Templar**

They say the same thing.

Armed = equipped

**DeathReaper**

You are asserting that:

Grey Templar wrote:

Models can only shoot weapons they are equipped with.

I can not find anywhere that says that in the BRB.

"During the Shooting Phase, a unit containing models armed with ranged weapons can be nominated to make shooting attacks."

All this says is that you can nominate a unit to make a shooting attack if that unit is armed with/equipped with ranged weapons. It does not say that a model can only shoot a weapon they are armed/equipped with. Note it says units can be nominated to make shooting attacks, as that is the first step in the shooting sequence.

It is different than what you are asserting.

**Von Marlon**

Exergy wrote:
Searched in vain for the thread so started a new one.

In the new CSM codex characters need to replace weapons to take new weapons from the armory. Most characters start out with a bolt pistol and ccw, or bolt pistol and force weapon or yadda yadda, most come with 2 weapons. Now if you take a bike, it says the bike is fitted with a twinlinked boltgun which does not replace your weapon as it does not require you to.

Now the question is can you replace that twinlinked boltgun with another weapon, a combi bolter for instance? Or the Burning Brand of Skalathrax, which is a special flamer.

Regular CSM bikers can that take a special weapon can replace the twinlinked boltgun on their bike with a meltagun or plasmagun, so I am leaning towards yes.

A lord or sorc on a bike is not a regular CSM biker and does not follow the same rules for them unless you can quote something that specifically says he does. He is given a standard bike with a combi-bolter. No where is his rules or universal bike rules does it say he can perform the same modifications to his bike as CSM bikers.

And actually the bike a lord gets is fitted with a combi-boltger as standard, not a twinlinked boltgun which although basically the same weapon still adds to differentiate it from a CSM bikers bike.