Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:
It's always interesting watching people try to make rational arguments to convince someone to change an entirely emotional decision.

Thing is, I am not even trying to pursuade anyone from not using this product if they think it is okay to do so.

However if anyone reads this and thinks " hmm, I didn't know that and I don't like that either" and makes his/her own, subsequent decision, then it has served it's purpose.

But why single out GW when the majority of manufacturers use identical brushes made in identical factories?

As I said I used to work for GW in the retail stores so I have plenty of examples of why the Empire is indeed Evil...

 TBD wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Ugh, They dont kill the Weasels, they shave them.

No they don't shave them.

If that seriously is what you think you are in for a rude awakening, unfortunately.

To answer your other question: yes, and if there is a reasonable alternative to any animal-unfriendly product I go with that.

Actually the vast majority of brush manufacturers who use natural fibers "comb" the animals to get the fibers. A special combs are designed to cut the hairs from the animals. These are then sorted, graded and used to create the various brushes used for art, makeup and other trades.

This is a growth out of the various animal rights hippy dippy types who make up a good chunk of the artist markets. The manufacturers realized that they could not risk loosing a sizable amount of their customers. Now, whether or not the animals are kept in a humane manner or later killed for their pelts (or for food or other purposes depending on the fiber in question) is generally not dealt with. However, in order to maintain their market and keep customers happy - they generally get the fibers for brushes from living animals who are no worse for wear after they are harvested.

In the case of Siberian Weasel Butt Hair - the specific fibers which are desired are those from the winter coat. They are readily available even without combing as the animal sheds the winter fur every spring. The winter fur fibers are better able to hold water and as a result are ideal water color brushes.

Now, whether or not GW is using a major brush manufacturer who harvests fur from live animals or is using a Chinese firm who uses scraps from animals killed for the fur trade is unknown to me. It is definitely easier and cheaper to get the fur from a dead animal than it is to get the fur from a live one.

Either way though, Kolinsky Sable Brushes work great - so I keep on using them. I'll even use them while wearing my lambskin slippers sitting in my leather upholstered chair while enjoying a bacon double cheeseburger.

 Corso Vitt wrote:
But why single out GW when the majority of manufacturers use identical brushes made in identical factories?

Because this is predominantly a GW discussion forum?

If it were a KFC forum i'm sure there'd be posts about the treatment of chickens in captivity.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

Either way though, Kolinsky Sable Brushes work great - so I keep on using them. I'll even use them while wearing my lambskin slippers sitting in my leather upholstered chair while enjoying a bacon double cheeseburger.

I'm vegetarian and I could probably bench what you weigh. Please, no one likes an internet badass.

Fair enough...

This thread needs more name calling from the OP.

As a person who keeps hens for eggs as a way to reduce animal cruelty in a very real way, I hate these kinds of animals as they will frequently break into the chicken coop and slaughter all the birds for no other reason but the pure joy of it. The don't eat anything. Killing these things reduces animal cruelty. This whole group of animals is sadistic.

 Lead Farmer wrote:
As a person who keeps hens for eggs as a way to reduce animal cruelty in a very real way, I hate these kinds of animals as they will frequently break into the chicken coop and slaughter all the birds for no other reason but the pure joy of it. The don't eat anything. Killing these things reduces animal cruelty. This whole group of animals is sadistic.

Cats will kill animals out of the sheer joy for it too. source
Presumably you're in favour of the wholesale murder of cats?

 Lead Farmer wrote:
As a person who keeps hens for eggs as a way to reduce animal cruelty in a very real way, I hate these kinds of animals as they will frequently break into the chicken coop and slaughter all the birds for no other reason but the pure joy of it. The don't eat anything. Killing these things reduces animal cruelty. This whole group of animals is sadistic.

Yup, they're pretty much nature's sociopaths. I'd like to see video of someone trying to comb a weasel.

 Testify wrote:

 Lead Farmer wrote:
As a person who keeps hens for eggs as a way to reduce animal cruelty in a very real way, I hate these kinds of animals as they will frequently break into the chicken coop and slaughter all the birds for no other reason but the pure joy of it. The don't eat anything. Killing these things reduces animal cruelty. This whole group of animals is sadistic.

Cats will kill animals out of the sheer joy for it too. source
Presumably you're in favour of the wholesale murder of cats?

Cats (like ferrets) have been domesticated enough that they can be taught to kill the rats and mice but not the chickens. The same is not true tor the weasels in question. Cats on farms are frequently working animals much like the dogs who chase rabbits out of the vegetables and help herd sheep or horses who help with driving cows and cattle. They aren't pets. They're farm equipment.

 Testify wrote:

 Lead Farmer wrote:
As a person who keeps hens for eggs as a way to reduce animal cruelty in a very real way, I hate these kinds of animals as they will frequently break into the chicken coop and slaughter all the birds for no other reason but the pure joy of it. The don't eat anything. Killing these things reduces animal cruelty. This whole group of animals is sadistic.

Cats will kill animals out of the sheer joy for it too. source
Presumably you're in favour of the wholesale murder of cats?

It is fun to trash GW and other posters than to read facts as presented by Sean_OBrien which shows the exaggerated cruelty which doesn't actually exist and the unsubstantiated accusations that GW hairs come from tortured trapped animals which are harvested after the last ounce of life is drained from them opposed to combed from the butt-hair of a shedding farmed animal.

The more I read, the brush industry is already mostly 'cruelty free' from most peoples understanding... and the only standard it doesn't fit is vegans, who believe all animal slavery is wrong.

So this is seeming to be more and more then 'I hate GW thread' of the week and not really a real issue. Might make more sense if someone actually confirmed where GW gets their brushes from and how they obtain the hairs. I am totally ok with combing winter hairs from a shedding animal which seems to be the standard.

 Testify wrote:

 Corso Vitt wrote:
But why single out GW when the majority of manufacturers use identical brushes made in identical factories?

Because this is predominantly a GW discussion forum?

If it were a KFC forum i'm sure there'd be posts about the treatment of chickens in captivity.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

Either way though, Kolinsky Sable Brushes work great - so I keep on using them. I'll even use them while wearing my lambskin slippers sitting in my leather upholstered chair while enjoying a bacon double cheeseburger.

I'm vegetarian and I could probably bench what you weigh. Please, no one likes an internet badass.

>Brags about being a vegetarian
>Brags about being able to bench
>Says no one likes internet badasses

3/10 trolling, you're making your way up there!

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
Actually the vast majority of brush manufacturers who use natural fibers "comb" the animals to get the fibers. A special combs are designed to cut the hairs from the animals. These are then sorted, graded and used to create the various brushes used for art, makeup and other trades.

This is a growth out of the various animal rights hippy dippy types who make up a good chunk of the artist markets. The manufacturers realized that they could not risk loosing a sizable amount of their customers. Now, whether or not the animals are kept in a humane manner or later killed for their pelts (or for food or other purposes depending on the fiber in question) is generally not dealt with. However, in order to maintain their market and keep customers happy - they generally get the fibers for brushes from living animals who are no worse for wear after they are harvested.

In the case of Siberian Weasel Butt Hair - the specific fibers which are desired are those from the winter coat. They are readily available even without combing as the animal sheds the winter fur every spring. The winter fur fibers are better able to hold water and as a result are ideal water color brushes.

Now, whether or not GW is using a major brush manufacturer who harvests fur from live animals or is using a Chinese firm who uses scraps from animals killed for the fur trade is unknown to me. It is definitely easier and cheaper to get the fur from a dead animal than it is to get the fur from a live one.

Either way though, Kolinsky Sable Brushes work great - so I keep on using them. I'll even use them while wearing my lambskin slippers sitting in my leather upholstered chair while enjoying a bacon double cheeseburger.

Except for the last little part perhaps this is a very good & useful response.

The problem is that it is indeed hard to identify which way the hair was gained. What some people in this thread (not you) don't seem to understand is that I would actually prefer if someone proved me wrong on the cruelty aspect, but so far nobody has been able to do so conclusively. There seems to be a large untransparant grey area.

@ Corso Vitt: this wasn't meant to be GW bashing specific, but for the same reason Testify already posted.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
These 'White Sable' are synthetic from all accounts. I'm thinking of ordering some myself as I'm against fur farming in general.


http://www.amazon.com/Robert-Simmons-Short-Handled-White-Brushes/dp/B000BHN5Z4/ref=sr_1_23?ie=UTF8&qid=1353173509&sr=8-23&keywords=robert+simmons+white+sable+brushes

Thanks

I don't use GW bri=ushes but I'm sure there isn't really a way of avoiding it.

nkelsch wrote:
The more I read, the brush industry is already mostly 'cruelty free' from most peoples understanding... and the only standard it doesn't fit is vegans, who believe all animal slavery is wrong.

There are actually "vegan" friendly brushes out there - I recall seeing an add for them in one of the magazines I read a few years back (don't recall the name of the company though). As I said - the animals shed their winter coat each spring and the winter coat is what is of value for the brushes. Apparently, this company hired locals to go out into the woods and grab the shed fur off twigs and branches each spring in order to make their brushes with. They cost two arms and a leg and likely didn't have a practical way of ensuring the locals didn't just catch and kill the vermin...but still, it gave their customers the warm fuzzy feeling they needed.

I'm genuinely curious as to how you balance being repulsed by the thought of using an animal hair brush, but are perfectly fine with synthetic brushes made from oil, often times harvested from the sea bed, which can result in causing major suffering and death in marine animals such as whales and porpoises etc? You only have to look at the Deepwater Horizon tragedy to see the environmental cost of raping the oil reserves, and the millions of lives lost, from singled celled organisms, all the way up to complex life.

Me, I don't get it. I'd never want an animal to suffer, but I'm quite happy to gut a fish for the barbecue, buy a leather couch, or use a good quality sable paint brush. I reckon I have a decent understanding of where the things I buy come from, and appreciate the fact I can buy them.

It's a bit like the whole electric car nonsense, as in, an electric car, over the life cycle of the product, is more harmful to the environment than my V8 jag - lots of nasty chemicals and manufacturing processes involved in the manufacture of the electric car, and of course, the hidden environmental cost of the electricity (whether its from coal fired plants, nuclear plants or whatever). At a superficial level, its all well and good you avoiding the obvious environmental cost of a sable brush, but when you're using your non-biodegradeable synthetic number, just remember that somewhere, a fish probably died to make that brush.

 mikhaila wrote:

 TBD wrote:


So my current GW brushes will go straight into the garbage bin where they belong, and I'll have to find alternative cruelty free brushes. I am rather appalled that GW turns out to contribute to animal cruelty in this way when cruelty free alternatives should be available.

Wow, you can resurrect dead weasels by tossing paint brushes into a garbage can?

It has nothing to do with that.

If you found out some item in your house was made out of something you ethically don't agree with, which could be a wide area of things, would you just keep it there/continue using/eating it?

If you would that is perfectly fine with me, but just curious.

 TBD wrote:

 Testify wrote:
...this is a terrible thread. Dude says he doesn't like animal cruelty going into making paintbrushes and is essentially trolled and flamed by people mocking the very notion of feeling sympathy for animals.

the internet.

It isn't the thread, it is the responses made in it.

I am aware the world is inhabited by uncaring simpletons mostly.

If the result of this thread is that 1 person is enlightened against 100 of these Homo Heidelbergensis types, then I consider it a succes already.

Way to collect people to your cause, by insulting the very people you are trying to convince.

Personally, I am against animal cruelty. But I also won't let it get in the way of practicality.

 Eggs wrote:


I'm genuinely curious as to how you balance being repulsed by the thought of using an animal hair brush, but
It's a bit like the whole electric car nonsense, as in, an electric car, over the life cycle of the product, is more harmful to the environment than my V8 jag - lots of nasty chemicals and manufacturing processes involved in the manufacture of the electric car, and of course, the hidden environmental cost of the electricity (whether its from coal fired plants, nuclear plants or whatever). At a superficial level, its all well and good you avoiding the obvious environmental cost of a sable brush, but when you're using your non-biodegradeable synthetic number, just remember that somewhere, a fish probably died to make that brush.

If it's sub-oceanic oil. It's made entirely of dead fish, If it's from land-based oil wells, it's more than likely being harvested by people who are spending the proceeds on continuing a horrific record of human rights abuses and funneling money to people who've dedicated their lives to eradicating every way of life other than their own. While you're at it, check out where the brass in those brushes you were looking at comes from. The zinc and copper are mostly strip mined in places like Chile and China, by borderline slave labor. Refining nickel uses and produces huge amounts of Carbon Monoxide. Everything made in the modern world traces its roots back to something wretched being done to a living creature.

Oh, and I hope you don't ever have a health problem. Every drug that's shown any degree of effectiveness at treating cancer has gotten its start with a culture of animal cells harvested from farm raised small mammals. The best nerve, skin, and dural regenerative technologies get their start with animal byproducts from farm raised animals who are killed to harvest the desired tissues.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
The more I read, the brush industry is already mostly 'cruelty free' from most peoples understanding... and the only standard it doesn't fit is vegans, who believe all animal slavery is wrong.

There are actually "vegan" friendly brushes out there - I recall seeing an add for them in one of the magazines I read a few years back (don't recall the name of the company though). As I said - the animals shed their winter coat each spring and the winter coat is what is of value for the brushes. Apparently, this company hired locals to go out into the woods and grab the shed fur off twigs and branches each spring in order to make their brushes with. They cost two arms and a leg and likely didn't have a practical way of ensuring the locals didn't just catch and kill the vermin...but still, it gave their customers the warm fuzzy feeling they needed.

Interesting! I suppose you could find natural sheddings to harvest branches. If I had an issue with the industry, I feel like paying extra money for a vegan brush is a much better solution than an inferior synthetic brush.

This whole thread brings up a wierd encounter I had with a so called animal rights activist once.

I was driving by a house one time that had been abandoned when I noticed a dog that was chained up beside the house. The dog had no food, not water, and could not get away. The guy that owned the house had just abandoned the dog there.

Now I work with a woman that claims she is an animal rights activist and I have listened to her talk about animal rescue and things of that nature for about four years now. When I got to work that morning I told her about the dog chained up and here's what she told me.

" I'm not interested in rescuing the dog unless you know who owns it. I want to hold that guy accountable for the animal cruelty"

I said to her that I don't know who owns it but I did know where the dog was at. I then asked her if she would go rescue it and maybe take it to a shelter or something. She said "no, not unless I can get the guy responsible"

I was like

She seemed more interested in having someone prosecuted rather than any real animal rescue.

As I have since come into contact with more and more animal rights activists, I have seen that this is a common attiude among many of them.

So I have to ask you. Since you know there is a problem, what are you personally doing to fix it? Coming on to a website about miniature games isn't really gonna solve the problem.

Are you going to start your own paint brush company that doesn't kill the animals? Are you going to point anyone in the direction of good companies that don't kill to make the brushes? Are you actively going to the paint brush company and standing outside with a bunch of other protestors holding signs and making the public aware of the problem besides just coming onto dakka and mentioning it? Are you getting involved in legislation that will try to stop the cruelty?

If you are, good for you. If not......then I question the motives behind the thread because it doesn't seem you are informed enough about the subject.

 mikhaila wrote:

 TBD wrote:


So my current GW brushes will go straight into the garbage bin where they belong, and I'll have to find alternative cruelty free brushes. I am rather appalled that GW turns out to contribute to animal cruelty in this way when cruelty free alternatives should be available.

Wow, you can resurrect dead weasels by tossing paint brushes into a garbage can?

Sigged

 DarkCorsair wrote:

 mikhaila wrote:

 TBD wrote:


So my current GW brushes will go straight into the garbage bin where they belong, and I'll have to find alternative cruelty free brushes. I am rather appalled that GW turns out to contribute to animal cruelty in this way when cruelty free alternatives should be available.

Wow, you can resurrect dead weasels by tossing paint brushes into a garbage can?

Sigged

I too genuinely lolled hard at that comment. I brightened my day!

 Testify wrote:

 Lead Farmer wrote:
As a person who keeps hens for eggs as a way to reduce animal cruelty in a very real way, I hate these kinds of animals as they will frequently break into the chicken coop and slaughter all the birds for no other reason but the pure joy of it. The don't eat anything. Killing these things reduces animal cruelty. This whole group of animals is sadistic.

Cats will kill animals out of the sheer joy for it too. source
Presumably you're in favour of the wholesale murder of cats?

I own cats as well and they occasionally kill a pest out in the barn that could harm me or my birds. Pest that will eat a newborn chick whole right out from under it's mother. This is useful. Full scale chicken genocide is not. People are far to absolute in matters they have no personal experience in or don't see the bigger picture of (not calling you out specifically Testify). There are probably few endeavours that don't impact the natural world in a negative way. Polystyrene miniature are a petroleum product no doubt causing way more environmental damage than sable brushes. The world needs to suffer so we as a species can live the life we do. To be absolutely opposed to animal cruelty is the ultimate hypocracy. It's about sustainable practices and limiting the amount that individual animals suffer. If you want to do something to help animals in my opinion, stop buying chicken at the supermarket. These animals live a horrible life.

 Lead Farmer wrote:
If you want to do something to help animals in my opinion, stop buying chicken at the supermarket. These animals live a horrible life.

Free-range chicken tastes waaaaaaaay better too. If there was a way I could raise my own chickens, I would.

To live a life where brush-hair gathering actually matters, you have to have a vegan core value set. It is very hard to do.

You also have to re-evaluate your position on 'pet ownership' vs 'animal companionship'. A lot of people who seem to have opinions against animal cruelty may find out that others see them as abusive pet owners. One of the big things is it sounds like 'no kill' shelters are humane when in fact, hardcore animal activists see 'no kill' shelters as the ultimate in animal abuse and support humane euthanization of animals over lifetime animal prison as seen in most underfunded 'no kill' shelters.

My entire reaction to this thread is LOLWUT?

Every time I meet someone like this I can't help but think that they are Luddites - it seems to me that the current progress of the human race was built on the backs of slavery of humans and animals.

Neither a human nor an animal is significantly different than any other collection of star-forged atoms (such as an iron deposit). I challenge anyone to prove otherwise.

I like how your saying all these things about animal cruelty and stuff, but just look at your profile pic, its a picture of an animal enslaved my mankind,come on, how much suffering has that Jokaero Weaponsmith has had to be shoved in the power armor? so your a bit of a hypocrite don't you think?

alphaecho wrote:
But surely it should be "The whole art industry contributes to animal cruelty".GW has its faults but they are not the only brush purveyor in the world. What next? Every time Mat Ward breaks wind a weasel dies!

Much like the way to kill a fairy, everytime someone shouts "I DON'T BELIEVE IN THE CHAOS GODS!" a games designer dies.

I'm with the OP 100% on this. Meat is MURDER.




But damn it sure tastes good hot off the grill with an ice cold beer.

Well thank you first of all for the huge amount of laughter this thread has brought me. I never thought I would see the day someone would accuse GW of animal cruelty. Truly DakkaDakka will never run out of reasons to bash GW.

Secondly, natural hair brushes are completely superior to nylon brushes. They pick up paint easier and are far more controllable. Professional painters always use natural hair brushes. GW brushes aren't the best, but using sable hair is definately the right way to go.

Anyway, obvious troll is obvious.