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I'm looking for a very specific mentality among Space Marines - in particular, the embrace of their role as defenders of mankind, and either direct or inadvertent sympathy towards normal humans.

Without a doubt, most Marines are seen by the typical human of the Imperium to be as demigods. They undergo specialized surgeries to craft themselves solely into war machines and through this process, much of what makes them 'human' escapes them. They aren't bound by natural strength or bodies anymore. Their mentalities change, and they loose connection with values that normal humans might. In Blood Gorgons, Chaos Marine Barsabbas uses a tribe of humans to distract a Nurgle force and literally cannot comprehend why Gumede is grieving at the loss of his people. Are all Marines so far removed from human mentality that they loose feelings of sympathy and values we associate with being human? Granted, 40k is meant to be grimdark and Barsabbas is a Traitor Marine, but are there examples of Marines that recognize or act upon their connection to mankind?

Salamanders are the typical choice. That seems to be their niche, aside from fire. Living amongst them on their home planet, etc.

Ultramarines perhaps as the next most often since they have created a near-utopic functional society and interact quite a bit with the human populace of their systems.

Salamanders and Space Wolves are the most famous examples of these.

Salamanders, Space Wolves, Ultramarines, Raven Guard (for Guardsmen units, anyways).

Salamanders!

Hm, the actions of the Space Wolves during the Months of Shame do make them out to be protective of humanity:
"In the aftermath of the Armageddon conflict the Space Wolves move to protect Imperial Guard and civilians from Armageddon from Inquisitorial purges, leading to at first a "Cold War" and eventually a direct clash between the two powers. At the conflicts peak, Fenris itself is besieged."

I don't know much about the Salamanders, actually. Which specific actions can I take a look at?

 Aristocrap wrote:
I'm looking for a very specific mentality among Space Marines - in particular, the embrace of their role as defenders of mankind, and either direct or inadvertent sympathy towards normal humans.

Salamanders and Space Wolves are prime example to this. Ultramarines to may fall into this category ( "Defenders of Ultramar" comic novel - they choose to stay and stall the Orks, losing their Dreadnought in the process, to allow civilians to escape to safety ).

But when you look at is from the big picture, majority of Space Marines think about themselves as defenders and protector of Mankind. All of them will gave their lives to protect Humanity, you will also see in various representations in the fluff that most of them are nicer to Guardsmen than their ow commanders.

Only Marines I know that think about Humans as nothing more than nuisance are Marines Malevolent and Space Sharks/Carcharodons. First one is famous for bombarding civilian shelter after letting as much Orks as they could to attack them so that they could wipe out both them and Orks. Salamanders were on a brink on fighting against them shortly after. And the other one was famous for after the Badab War end they sacked one of Astral Claws supply bases and as a gift they took a whole generation of the system's young men and made them fight each-other - those who survived were found worthy to join their ranks.

Beside those two I could find only one more that fit - Flesh Tearers. But they are victims of their disease so we shouldn't really count them here.

There's Helsreach (and indeed the entire 3rd War for Armageddon). They fight in order to protect the people of Armageddon, not to win glory or honour. They even come to blows with the Marines Malevolent over the latter's callous disregard for collateral damage.

 Aristocrap wrote:

I don't know much about the Salamanders, actually. Which specific actions can I take a look at?

3'rd war for Armageddon: "When the Third War for Armageddon began, Tu'Shan was one of the first to respond, leading six companies, including the Fire Drakes, to the planet. Of the fully twenty chapters, only the Salamanders fought for the people of Armageddon. According to rumors, Tu'Shan himself came to blows with Captain Vinyar of the Marines Malevolent, when the latter shelled a refugee camp the Orks had penetrated. Vinyar is said to have left the civilians to die because he "hadn´t time" to defend them, a notion which greatly angered the Chapter Master."

Yeah, and I forgotten about Grimdalus. He is Black Tempalrs Chaplain ( and probably the most awesome and badass Chaplain in the entire Imperium ), he has high respect for Guardsmen and he actually saved some of them several times when they were given idiotic orders by their commanders.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

 Aristocrap wrote:
I'm looking for a very specific mentality among Space Marines - in particular, the embrace of their role as defenders of mankind, and either direct or inadvertent sympathy towards normal humans.

Salamanders and Space Wolves are prime example to this. Ultramarines to may fall into this category ( "Defenders of Ultramar" comic novel - they choose to stay and stall the Orks, losing their Dreadnought in the process, to allow civilians to escape to safety ).

But when you look at is from the big picture, majority of Space Marines think about themselves as defenders and protector of Mankind. All of them will gave their lives to protect Humanity, you will also see in various representations in the fluff that most of them are nicer to Guardsmen than their ow commanders.

Not quite. The majority of Space Marines fight to protect the Imperium. They can do that perfectly well, like the case of the Marine Malevolent, while treating the population like target practice.

The Salamanders fight to protect the people, not the Imperium.

And yet the Emepror said:

"They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines and they shall know no fear."

They are also protecting the peopel as much as they are protecting the Imperium. Jsut see little deeper into every BL book/fluff peace and you will see.

1. Space Wolves - Armageddon,Honor's End, even damn Leman Russ was stoping on his way to terra to free people which pissed Lion (who wanted rush to fight Horus(WD))
2. Salamanders - they are prime example of nobility
3. Raven Guard - hmmmm, maybe

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
And yet the Emepror said:

"They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines and they shall know no fear."

They are also protecting the peopel as much as they are protecting the Imperium. Jsut see little deeper into every BL book/fluff peace and you will see.

There's a very important context to that.

Defenders of Humanity. Not defenders of humans.

Plenty of Space Marine Chapters interpret that duty in different ways. Heck, the entire Imperium is full of different interpretations. After all, Exterminatus is about defending humanity too, and it murders billions, lol.

The Crimson Fists. When Pedro Cantor lead the survivors from the devastated keep, they were followed by a small group of refugees. Cantor ordered his second in command to make them leave, but he refused. Annoyed, Cantor said that if the family could keep up, he would not stop them.

Eventually, the mother, who was struggling to carry her children for days, collapsed. But she did not lie on the ground and die. She was lifted up by Cantor, carrying her the way she had carried her children.

Then of course, you also have individuals like Thaddeus and Tarkus from the Blood Ravens, who genuinely care for the common man, and fight with optimism rather than spite.

Further to this , how could you fluff out the use of Imperial forces (not guard) as a assets used by a Chapter.

I have a SM chapter (mostly a mixture of Sons of Corax, a RG successor with a few units of parent RG included fluffed out as cross training with closely knit chapters, which I think is something very RG) that also uses regiments of homegrown/trained/equipped IG.

Would this float , in strict games terms , its just allies...but would Imperium doctrine rule against it.

Pre-Heresy 1k Sons seem very human friendly.

Brother Captain Alexander wrote:And yet the Emepror said:
"They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines and they shall know no fear."

That is what the Emperor intended, yes. Note that his words were also intended to apply to Horus & Co.

The Space Marines' "ascension" from the ranks of puny human beings (usually recruited from particularly violent societies such as tribal warriors and hive gangs) into heavily augmented monastic warriors whose reflexes, strength and intelligence are boosted far beyond their cultural norm also having the side effect of rendering them arrogant and prideful is, or so I believe, also a very important albeit only irregularly touched theme - and one of the chief reasons that led to the Horus Heresy in the first place. There is this saying about "power corrupts", and the Space Marines embrace not only their service to the Imperium but also the cultural norms of the often primitive local population (receiving incredible adoration for their nimbus) as well as a sort of cult venerating their own organisation, its founder, and whatever heroes the Chapter may have spawned over its long history. It is a monastic life, but for most Chapters without embracing the humble role of a servant. One of the Astartes' greatest weaknesses, I would say, and an ongoing potential threat for the Imperium lessened only by the fact that betrayal and defection occur the splintered nature of the Chapters (thanks in part to the Codex Astartes) renders it an isolated case rather than risking a second Horus Heresy and all-out civil war.

Brother Captain Alexander wrote:They are also protecting the peopel as much as they are protecting the Imperium. Jsut see little deeper into every BL book/fluff peace and you will see.

Careful, BL novels also mean individual interpretations of whoever writes the book. This may at times stretch a subject compared to what you know from the Codex, or even completely twist portrayal.

Let me provide an example of relevance to the topic at hand:

"Lieutenant Raskil of the Fourth Levillian, seconded to the Adeptus Mechanicus on garrison duty", he said. "Praise the Immortal Emperor that you are here to save us."
"Nubean looked down at the officer, the top of hose head only reached to the Space Marine's chest eagle.
"You are mistaken, lieutenant", he told Raskil. "We are not here to save you. We are here to protect the portal from the foul eldar. Your survival is only important with regard to that mission."
The lieutenant stepped back as if slapped, mouth gaping wide. Before he could say anything more, the hulking form of Brother Zambias was towering over him.
"Where is this alien artifact, lieutenant? I wish to examine it", the librarian declared. The Imperial Guardsman was still taken aback by Nubian's reprimand.
"I'll, er... I'll take you to it myself. Do you wish to rest and eat a little before we see it?", Raskil offered.
Ramesis felt his anger rising. This impudent human was suggesting their physical needs took priority over their mission objectives. He stomped towards the lieutenant, but Nubean interposed himself, holding up a hand to halt Ramesis' approach.
"We do not require any sustenance yet, lieutenant", the captain interjecected swiftly. "However, we must attend to the defence of this position before any other matters. Please detail your sergeants to work with my brothers. Your men can rest for the remainder of the night, my squads will stand watch until daybreak."

That's a short excerpt from Know Thine Enemy by Gav Thorpe. In my opinion a perfectly good representation of average Astartes-Human relationships (just the right amount of domineering demeanour and controlled annoyance not yet erupting in violence). However, the peculiar thing is that these Space Marines are supposed to be Salamanders. I wonder how many people in this thread would agree that such behaviour would be characteristic of this particular Chapter?

Synthetik wrote:Further to this , how could you fluff out the use of Imperial forces (not guard) as a assets used by a Chapter.
I have a SM chapter (mostly a mixture of Sons of Corax, a RG successor with a few units of parent RG included fluffed out as cross training with closely knit chapters, which I think is something very RG) that also uses regiments of homegrown/trained/equipped IG.
Would this float , in strict games terms , its just allies...but would Imperium doctrine rule against it.

Imperial Guard, permanently assigned as servants to the Space Mariens? Yes, that would be a breach of protocol.
However, there's two easy solutions how you could still pull it off:
a) say this IG is just a temporary attachment, and both your IG as well as your SM are part of an inter-adeptus Imperial task force (like a crusade).
b) say it's actually the PDF from the Chapter's homeworld (this seems to be what you intend to do anyways)

If you've read the Salamander novels or stories, you'd see how they're more... empathetic.... compared to their fellow marines.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Defenders of Humanity. Not defenders of humans.

And Humanity is made of Humans, if they let Humans die they are letting Humanity die.

But I ma not saying that they are saving every Human ( just like regular solder cannot save every civilian in war ), but their actions and what they do will ensure that in the long run hundreds of billions are saved. Probably the closest thing you will get to call Marines as defenders of Humanity is that they help Guard Regiments not to be overwhelmed and that they destroy certain targets to ensure that civilian population elsewhere is safe.

They do not save Humans directly, but indirectly. There is even many examples from fluff where Astartes droppod on a planet and save a village from being overwhelmed by Orks or Dark Eldar. There is even a example of Grey Knights deploying on primitive planet and slaying entire Ork WARGHH to save the people of that planet. If they who kill their allies because they saw them and brainwash their own brothers care about Humans that they will deploy and save them when nobody else would who are we to question other Astartes.

@Lynata

Good points there, I am not saying that they are true - they are. What I am trying to say is that most Astartes will not save Humans directly, just like Avitus said: "We are not his Angels of Mercy, we are his Angels of Death. Leave saving to holy Sisters and others." They are not saving people by actually helping them get out of ruble or giving them CPR, they are saving them in other way - by killing the things that are out there to kill them. Because that is the best way for them to do it - kill the threat and you have saved many lives in the process.

And that example from book is a good one, Astartes themselves will never admit that they saved someone. They consider that as part of their duty ( again Emperor's quote ) and as such will never make huge fuss about it. But even if they said that in cold blood they against offered to assist them. In that way Guardsmen will have much better chance to survive and Astartes might even save some in the end by helping them.

But the way I see it now all evidence showed that Astartes care about Humanity, but they are not showing this ( Titus from Ultramarines is prime example of this ). People must remember that all of them learned that they must put their emotions at side sot that they can concentrate on other most important things ( people don't call them warriors monks for nothing ).

And P.S. to Veteran Sergeant - this is Warhammer 40.000, here is you kill million people to save billions of people that also counts as caring for Humanity and saving lives. The needs of the many always come before the needs of the few, that is also true today. Grimdark isn't it?

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Defenders of Humanity. Not defenders of humans.

And Humanity is made of Humans, if they let Humans die they are letting Humanity die.

Nope, lol.

The needs of the many always come before the needs of the few, that is also true today.

Nope, lol.

Brother Captain Alexander wrote:But I ma not saying that they are saving every Human ( just like regular solder cannot save every civilian in war ), but their actions and what they do will ensure that in the long run hundreds of billions are saved.

This is much closer to how I perceive the situation than your earlier response, yet also contradicts your sentiment about humanity = humans. Yes, it is true that humans as a whole make up humanity, but humanity as a whole does not hinge upon the survival of hundreds, thousands or even millions of people. There are just still too many humans out there to render this a "valid concern" for certain forces in the Imperium. The only thing that counts is that the myriad threats to humanity as a whole are stopped, and if this means that millions have to die to destroy a foe, then so be it. Also see: Exterminatus.

To paraphrase the Inquisitional mantra: Killing ten billion innocent people is the right thing to do when it means the Imperium - and with it humanity - are saved.
And that's outright murder rather than simply neglecting civilian populations in favour of military action, such as abandoning some village or city to marauding enemies because another force is currently en-route to attack the strategically vital manufactorium complex or a refinery, whose resources are required by Imperial troops elsewhere. Or perhaps even using civilians as bait to lure an enemy into position.

I also vaguely recall the Night Lords Space Marine Chapter being trained in terror tactics to bring rebellous colonies in line with the Imperial mandate. They surely did some nasty things as well.

In part, it is possibly the same morale issue that Inquisitors or even Imperial Guardsmen or Sisters of Battle are faced with again and again - that of duty overriding compassion by necessity - just in case of the Space Marines further enhanced by an inherent streak of supremacy/pride/arrogance due to their origin, the Chapter's heritage and their superior bodies basically making them "humans +1". I would say it is quite possible that a newly inducted Space Marine, depending on how much his local culture venerated the Astartes, starts out as still being quite close to his roots, but over the decades simply getting out of touch with ordinary people, both because he himself is no longer one of them as well as because he will slowly get used to "tactical necessities" resulting in casual disregard for the lives of those not of the same organisation. Hell, we see this happening in real world militaries across the globe already.

I did recall one other example of Space Marines caring for people, though! And unlike the untouchable, invulnerable Space Wolves, they had to pay a very high price for their empathy...

From GW's old Armageddon 3 campaign website: http://web.archive.org/web/20070404114806/http://www.armageddon3.com/English/Campaign/Troops/clions.html

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Pre-Heresy 1k Sons seem very human friendly.

I never really got that impression, they always came across as arrogant and superior to me.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Pre-Heresy 1k Sons seem very human friendly.

I never really got that impression, they always came across as arrogant and superior to me.

I think it's more that thousand sons viewed humans as useful. Similar to the alpha legion, they were more willing to interact and deploy closely with regular humans.

 Lynata wrote:


I did recall one other example of Space Marines caring for people, though! And unlike the untouchable, invulnerable Space Wolves, they had to pay a very high price for their empathy...

From GW's old Armageddon 3 campaign website: http://web.archive.org/web/20070404114806/http://www.armageddon3.com/English/Campaign/Troops/clions.html

Ooo, will you ever let go of that little incident with sisters and the "I" .... Maybe icoming "Blood of Asaheim" novel will soften you up towards my dogs....

While not the most famous examples, the Blood Angels have their share of heroics. There's an example of Mephiston buying time for a hive to evacuate against Tyranids, and Dante is noted as famed across the Imperium often for saving worlds where other forces couldn't - or wouldn't - intervene.

DarthMarko wrote: Ooo, will you ever let go of that little incident with sisters and the "I"

You're mistaken, this has nothing to do with the Sisters - my dislike for the Space Wolves has existed ever since I read their fluff. They take too many exceptions from too many rules with little to no repercussions. Too much plot armour for my taste and perception of the grim darkness of the setting, as it's obviously a matter of preferences. If you prefer that style (including what I perceive as a lack of consequences), have fun, and I truly mean it when I'm saying this.

Not something we have to or indeed can argue about, though, especially not in this thread.
I apologise for the unnecessary jab; I had allowed myself to be guided by a firmly entrenched bias when I wrote that line. It has little to do with the topic at hand, so I should have simply let it out.

Unfortunately the Ultramarines. Their fans are often made of puke (just like the more stupid bunch of Toronto Maple Leafs that like how it is going right now), but they shall be nicest variety of Space Marines because they actually give a crap unlike everyone else. And a special notion must go to the Imperial Fists who if they recognize a superior military talent cedes commands. Not even the Ultras does that.

I'll just add The Mentor Legion, they work closely with human authorities and integrate themselves with Imperial Guard units during campaigns. They are perhaps the most advanced marines in the Imperium, with state of the art weapons and a modern warfare doctrine without dogma or stifling rituals.

Back in the day, you could buy a squad of mentor legion for your imperial guard army and either keep the squad intact or have each marine lead a guard squad.

space wolves almost went to war with the administratum over them screwing over there ig allies after a particulerly devistating war with angeron the demon primarc. good old space wolves

The Inquisition, not the overall Administratum. And the Inquisition has kept a close eye on the Wolves ever since, with only Logan Grimnar standing in the way of a full blown investigation.