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 TedNugent wrote:
Once you swing, you're in combat, right? Once you're in combat, you can get challenged. How do you avoid that?

To be more clear, you can only accept a challenge if you're engaged. If you keep your Nob far back enough, he can't be challenged, but can then move up in his initiative phase to strike.

Anyway, Dreadknights. Challenging has made them tougher, so mobbing them isn't an immediate solution as it was in 5th.

You have a few units that will help. Lootas can help force those rolls of 1 with a high quantity of high strength shots, but it's attrition over time. Zzap Guns can work well (4+ to hit on Big Guns, toughness 7 grot crew), and you also have Kustom Mega Blastas for a str8 ap2 weapon - put them on Kanz.

The SAG is okay, but iffy since it can only put a single wound on the model (unless you roll a double 6 ).

Just remember that if you DO put any high strength ap2 weapons on the table, your opponent may move in to nullify them quickly!

Maybe I have been lucky with the meganobs but they are what I throw at em I plan on losing 2 or 3 out of a 5 man squad when I do. I do shoot at them before hand but I don't send everything at them either. I try to run a all comers list and I try to keep my boys down to 18, 19 or 20 man size to fit in BW transports with an IC not just to keep them safe but to keep the game flowing at a good pace. Sometimes I charge the meganobs as I know thats the unit my opponent is going to charge on his charge anyways other times I just go for it. So with the all comers list they usually wind up as my best choice, Half the time I find the GK players spends way to many points on a death star unit on foot that I just avoid while I kill the rest of the army the other half the time the games are pretty good.

Meganobs... aren't actually that bad an idea.

If the DK smashes, you'll lose at most two. If the DK doesn't smash, you'll lose one on average.

So a mob of four or five would certainly threaten any single DK.

If BOTH of the DKs assault the Meganobs though, that's a different story.

How about having a large mob of Boyz with a PK Nob and a PK Warboss charge in. The Dreadknight would most probably issue a challenge, which you would accept. With your Nob. This leaves your Warboss free to attack. He can have 6 Attacks when charging which would hit on 4s, I think, and wound (and penetrate his armour) on 2s. That's likely to be 3 Wounds on the Dreadknight. Even if you fail to kill him, your Warboss Cybork Body may save him if you're lucky and then, you've still got 30 Boyz holding him up anyway.

Another alternative is a PK Biker Boss with Cybork and FNP from a Nob Squad. He won't be ID'd because he's T6, and has a reasonable chance of shrugging of wounds as well with his two 5++ saves. Then you can smack back with your PK attacks. I don't really know the Dreadknight rules though, so I may be missing something crucial here, though I think the first option's better anyway.

 The Shadow wrote:
How about having a large mob of Boyz with a PK Nob and a PK Warboss charge in. The Dreadknight would most probably issue a challenge, which you would accept. With your Nob. This leaves your Warboss free to attack.

If your nob accepts the challenge, then the warboss can't hit the DK.
You should actually decline the challenge, your opponent will probably take out your WBoss. So you are left with the nob to hit .
Just make sure that your WBoss join the unit before charging. Otherwise the DK can still put the hit on the boss.

By the way the DK use force weapon, so no matter the toughness he will ID your WBoss , he doesn't need smash.

 TedNugent wrote:
To be honest, I'd just throw a 30 strong Shoota Boy squad at it and just tarpit it before it kills anything valuable. It can only kill a maximum of 4 Boyz per turn, and they're Fearless until they hit 10 models.

This is how I deal with badasses. 6th edition boyz are the fething cheese man. "Oh looky there, something that will most definitely kick my ass and Ill regret not dealing with it.......BOOOOOOOYZ!!!!!!!!" Not to mention at T6, boyz will actually whittle that bastard down, Ive done that MANY times against Nids. Nothing more hilarious to me, then the look on someones face when you completely neutralize their HQ killer with boyz, that sometimes get lucky and put wounds through that awesome armor.

A mob of boys will CERTAINLY tie it down - though it will take several turns to actually kill it.

But, tying it down may be as good as killing it, in your case.

TBH it seems like the dakka jet is a viable option. The TL shots and increased from the waagh does't seem that bad vs the DK.

Your best with ground troops is to tarpit the DK with boys and hope your nobz can do dmg.

I dont think so. Even on the WAAAGH! lets say you score all 18 shots, youll lose half those just wounding it. so 9 wounds vs a 2+ save, you might wound it twice. Id rather pour those shots into something else against a GK force. Boyz. Thats what Id use

Do as Shadow suggested, but don't accept with the Nob, decline with him, this means the Nob will not get to attack but leaves the WB open to attack.

 Kharrak wrote:
Meganobs... aren't actually that bad an idea.

If the DK smashes, you'll lose at most two. If the DK doesn't smash, you'll lose one on average.

So a mob of four or five would certainly threaten any single DK.

If BOTH of the DKs assault the Meganobs though, that's a different story.

Nope.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2570043a_Grey_Knights_v1.1.pdf

Dreadknights are already Strength 10 because they have Power Fists. By some apparent attempt at making them seem more attractive to GK players, the FAQ has retconned their rules so that if they buy that cheap sword upgrade, they get 4 Strength 10 attacks with rerolls to hit AND to wound. They way, way overdid the upgrade with this FAQ, but suffice to say, that means this is the equation you're looking at, assuming YOU get the charge against a Dreadknight:



3.4 instant kill wounds.

And even if it was strength 6 with rerolls to hit and wound (it isn't), the Dreadknight is still using a Force Weapon, which means that every wound has a 3/4 or so chance to instant kill anyway.

Using Meganobz is a surefire way to lose a lot of points before even getting to strike against a Dreadknight.

Played against GY with my orks yesterday my 10 lootas got it down to one wound with 30 shots and a group of 20 shoota boyz finished it by round two before it could reach into CC. Quanity kills it!

phatonic wrote:
Played against GY with my orks yesterday my 10 lootas got it down to one wound with 30 shots and a group of 20 shoota boyz finished it by round two before it could reach into CC. Quanity kills it!

Correct me if i'm wrong but that seems extremely lucky.

I was lucky, and i had nightfighting on my side the game was scouring so he had his scoring units taking some objectives thus they stayed back while i charged forward with my footsloggin shooty list


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And when you get 13 wounds he would most likely toss a few ones

Lootas and dakkajets fall under the "stupid luck" category. I think the mob of boyz would be better since they get 2 attacks every turn (3 if sluggas) and 6s arent that hard to get when rolling 30+ dice.

I would much rather aim my lootas at transports or a sniper, which i did in this game i mentioned in the OP. His transports didnt move lol.

Alternatively i feel like dakkajets are pretty meh unless facing another plane. I dont own one so ive only proxied it, but every time ive fielded it my 5man loota squad outshines it every time unless theres another plane to deal with.
That being said, i am getting one and always fielding at least one for AA support lol. If no air, then hello infantry!

As for all the people suggesting i throw 3-4 big hits at it, dont forget these things have a big invul save as well (4+ i think it was, this game was awhile ago now). Majority of the attacks that i had that ignored his armor got invulned anyway. Which this was only klaws but still, damn invul save.

For clearing away DKs would the SAG guns not work? I would think that their potential for greatness could really make it worth it, not to mention that they can be pretty accurate since they only worry about a scatter that more often than not has no worries.

I think what everyone has suggested, for the most part, could be valid. Some games you have the opportunity to spend the first two turns shooting DK, like if they have a foot deathstar that you can kite, sometimes its more important to use lootas to blow up transports, and its better to tar pit the DKs, either way I think one thing you should look into is the list your running. If your like myself what you own limits your pontential lists but I think at 1500 points you could run a better list to fight GKs. At 1500 points are the 4 nob bikers without a PB worth it? Also I think you should add more lootas and cut the koptas. Trukk boyz are fun and can be effective but maybe running larger fearless units could be better against GKs. Also someone mentioned this before but Ghazzy, while expensive, does a lot of damage against GKs. On his waagggh turn he can kill DKs and without it he can take on any of their infantry, except paladins, because force weapons are only ap3 and he is immune to instadeath. Plus if they are running a paladin deathstar they probably cant afford two DKs, and Ghazzy can call a waaagh and insta splat those losers instead. Maybe I just love Ghazzy too much and he is way to expensive but it is always fun to call a waaagh and watch him eat face.

 Kharrak wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:
Once you swing, you're in combat, right? Once you're in combat, you can get challenged. How do you avoid that?

To be more clear, you can only accept a challenge if you're engaged. If you keep your Nob far back enough, he can't be challenged, but can then move up in his initiative phase to strike.

The moment the unit is in combat, any character in that unit may be challenged no matter how far back he may be. He can be out of the 2 inch zone needed to attack but he can still be challenged as long as he is in the unit in combat. That's why the rules say that once a challenge is accepted you switch the challengers with models that are in base cntact with each other. This was made to represent the Unit Champions shouting at each other and then wadding through their men to engage in a 1 on 1 melee.


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Vineheart01 wrote:
Lootas and dakkajets fall under the "stupid luck" category. I think the mob of boyz would be better since they get 2 attacks every turn (3 if sluggas) and 6s arent that hard to get when rolling 30+ dice.

I would much rather aim my lootas at transports or a sniper, which i did in this game i mentioned in the OP. His transports didnt move lol.

Alternatively i feel like dakkajets are pretty meh unless facing another plane. I dont own one so ive only proxied it, but every time ive fielded it my 5man loota squad outshines it every time unless theres another plane to deal with.
That being said, i am getting one and always fielding at least one for AA support lol. If no air, then hello infantry!

As for all the people suggesting i throw 3-4 big hits at it, dont forget these things have a big invul save as well (4+ i think it was, this game was awhile ago now). Majority of the attacks that i had that ignored his armor got invulned anyway. Which this was only klaws but still, damn invul save.

The so called "stupid luck" is the forte of the ork armies. If you aren't relying and believing that you can make those dice rolls then your WAAAGH!!! isn't strong enough. There is no space for doubt in an ork because he's filled with too much awesome sauce.

 Kharrak wrote:

To be more clear, you can only accept a challenge if you're engaged. If you keep your Nob far back enough, he can't be challenged, but can then move up in his initiative phase to strike.

Anyway, Dreadknights. Challenging has made them tougher, so mobbing them isn't an immediate solution as it was in 5th.

And once you move up in your initiative phase - what then? Can't you be challenged in the next turn of combat?

TedNugent wrote:

 Kharrak wrote:

To be more clear, you can only accept a challenge if you're engaged. If you keep your Nob far back enough, he can't be challenged, but can then move up in his initiative phase to strike.

Anyway, Dreadknights. Challenging has made them tougher, so mobbing them isn't an immediate solution as it was in 5th.

And once you move up in your initiative phase - what then? Can't you be challenged in the next turn of combat?

enooNaMI wrote:
The moment the unit is in combat, any character in that unit may be challenged no matter how far back he may be. He can be out of the 2 inch zone needed to attack but he can still be challenged as long as he is in the unit in combat. That's why the rules say that once a challenge is accepted you switch the challengers with models that are in base contact with each other. This was made to represent the Unit Champions shouting at each other and then wadding through their men to engage in a 1 on 1 melee.

I posted this right before you posted. Any character model that is included in a unit in an Assault can be challenged no matter how far they are and even if they only get in 2 inches once they pile in during their initiative phase. It is up to the challenged player to choose whichever character model in his unit will accept the challenge. It doesn't have to be the guy who was challenged unless he's the only character there.

Its not good to issue challenges against an all character unit as they'll just keep accepting, making the DK kill only one model per turn as he can only wound and be wounded by the opponent he faces in the challenge..

Your sergeant can only be challenged if he is currently engaged and can strike blows in the combat. Meaning that if your sergeant is more than 2" away from a model in base to base with the enemy, he can't be challenged. Last line of Accepting a Challenge in pg 64.

@Tednugent. Yup. Then he gets challenged. But at very least he gets one round to get his attacks in and able to spread the damage, which is obviously better than no rounds at all.

Is 1 round of strikes worth the 45 points you spend on it?

 TedNugent wrote:
Is 1 round of strikes worth the 45 points you spend on it?

Well, one must consider that I'm not getting the PK nob just for challenges. Against your general sergeants, the Nob won't have a hard time for the larger part. Additionally, it helps against walkers and vehicles, as well as mopping up units without sergeants.

Also, on your note about the DKs. Huh. Did NOT know that. So, yeah, Meganobs are not a useful tool against them >_>

What? Orks can beat GK??
Imopssible, I am yet to see one single ork army over here that has NOT been tabled by gks.

So many things in this thread are just wrong. I don't know why a DK would use smash vs anything other than a vehicle because it has 4 attacks at str10, AP2 always. When you decline a challenge the opponnent says who doesn't fight, not you. You only get to pick who accepts or who challenges if the honors have been past to you or it is your turn. It's all in the rulebooks and FAQs people. Lets not give bad advice based on terrible rule reading. For orks to take down a DK a nobz on bike squad makes fast work of them if you don't mind losing 2 or 3 of them.

^two or three nob bikers is about 100-200 points right there, depending on which you lose and what they had. I'd just say boyz again. But i disagree with bigmek wurrzog on the grots trick. you don't get the sucker down to one attack a turn, just because one of them will generally sit out to avoid being challenged. but once he's down to two attacks, he's only munching two a turn, and with thirty grotz, you only take a moral check after losing 8 grots (30 grots plus the three runtherds. total 33, 25% rounding down is 8) and with the dk killing two a turn, it's taking four turns just to have them test on moral, in which you can let the squig hound eat most of the remaining ones and delay for another turn or two. It's pretty easy to slog him up for the whole game for just 100 points or so (forgot how much runtherds cost) as opposed to the 220 you're spending on the 30 mob of boyz, minimum. Much better throw away unit.

Just have to make sure he doesn't blow out the grotz before they get there. Of course, if they do, then they're still shooting grots, and if they got creamed by his core army while shooting everything at it, then if they waste fire on grotz, then you'll just be able to dedicate more to shoot his dk.

The 25% rule is for shooting casualties. In CC you follow a different rule I am afraid.

FUUUUU-

only just remembered that. dang.

Gretchin only get a reroll of Leadership 7, and it costs them 2 models per reroll. That's compared to Ork Boyz which are Fearless when >10 models.

It's situations like that that make me use KMB Killa Kans still, even though they are pretty bad compared to 5th.