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Can you 'Deny the Witch' against the Grey Knight psychic power 'Heroic Sacrifice'?

I say no. I believe the power effects the Grey Knight, who then makes an attack against an enemy. The counter argument is that the psychic power is directly targeting the enemy.

Thoughts? Has this been done to death already? Sorry if I missed it.

Not I'm rather rusty on deny the witch rules. But I think you use the roll to defend the squad so if it doesn't target the squad you can't deny the witch? I might be totally wrong

 cgage00 wrote:
Not I'm rather rusty on deny the witch rules. But I think you use the roll to defend the squad so if it doesn't target the squad you can't deny the witch? I might be totally wrong

No, you're right. It gets a bit sticky because the psychic power itself makes no mention of targets. It says you take the psychic test, and if you're successful, you make a single attacks against a model in base to base combat. If you hit, both models are removed with no saves of any kind.

The question is, is it affecting the Grey Knight, or is it affecting the model he attacks? Personally, I think it is an augment power, with more in common with Hammerhand or Might of Titan, than a direct damage power which directly targets the enemy.

I get the same fight from people that want to deny the witch, cleansing flame. I'm like look bro, it doesn't say target and the FAQ says its a close combat attack. Do you want a deny for force weapons and hammerhand as well? Jeez can't us grey knight players just get away with all the best stuff? People have to stop complaining.

Heroic Sacrifice is not targeting the enemy at all. It only allows Brotherhood Champion/Crowe to make a special attack.

So no DtW for it.

This is a good question. RAW seems to be no, there are no deny the witch saves against either heroic sacrifice or cleansing flame. Had a debate with this at my local store, and couldn't come to a consensus.

I thought you could only attempt a "Deny the Witch" roll against witchfire psyker powers ....

Station's Creation wrote:
I thought you could only attempt a "Deny the Witch" roll against witchfire psyker powers ....

And malidictions, and any other enemy psychic power that targets your models.

Question is then, is it a buff to your model, or a debuff to his?

 Goat wrote:
I get the same fight from people that want to deny the witch, cleansing flame. I'm like look bro, it doesn't say target and the FAQ says its a close combat attack. Do you want a deny for force weapons and hammerhand as well? Jeez can't us grey knight players just get away with all the best stuff? People have to stop complaining.

Surely Cleansing Flame would allow a Deny the Witch roll? It inflicts wounds on the enemy?

 liam0404 wrote:

 Goat wrote:
I get the same fight from people that want to deny the witch, cleansing flame. I'm like look bro, it doesn't say target and the FAQ says its a close combat attack. Do you want a deny for force weapons and hammerhand as well? Jeez can't us grey knight players just get away with all the best stuff? People have to stop complaining.

Surely Cleansing Flame would allow a Deny the Witch roll? It inflicts wounds on the enemy?

Causing wounds is not a trigger for Deny the Witch. Targeting (use of the literal wording target) is the only trigger for deny the witch. And neither abilities "Target" anything, according to the rules.
Heroic Sacrifice lets me make a super close combat attack against your guy.
Cleansing flame lets me make a close combat attack against your guys.
Both powers work similarly to activating force weapons, and you don't get Deny the Witch for that, do you?

Deny the Witch only takes effect when the squad is directly targeted by a psychic power.

Now, I'm not entirely sure (Its been a while since I last read the GK dex), but I recall Heroic Sacrifice being described as a special attack given to the caster that kills both a target model and the caster.
As its cast on the caster and not on the target, Deny the Witch can not be used against herioc sacrifice, in the same way that you can't use it to block force weapons and hammer hand.

Cleansing Flame is trickier though. Is it described as being an additional attack (and therefore a buff) or an offensive spell that damages the target directly?

Neronoxx wrote:

 liam0404 wrote:

 Goat wrote:
I get the same fight from people that want to deny the witch, cleansing flame. I'm like look bro, it doesn't say target and the FAQ says its a close combat attack. Do you want a deny for force weapons and hammerhand as well? Jeez can't us grey knight players just get away with all the best stuff? People have to stop complaining.

Surely Cleansing Flame would allow a Deny the Witch roll? It inflicts wounds on the enemy?

Causing wounds is not a trigger for Deny the Witch. Targeting (use of the literal wording target) is the only trigger for deny the witch. And neither abilities "Target" anything, according to the rules.
Heroic Sacrifice lets me make a super close combat attack against your guy.
Cleansing flame lets me make a close combat attack against your guys.
Both powers work similarly to activating force weapons, and you don't get Deny the Witch for that, do you?

IIRC it specifically states you don't get DTW for Force weapons.

No it doesn't, because the FW rule augments the psyker's own weapon by giving it ID. As such GW saw no need to specify anything.

Pg 37, "Deny the Witch rolls cannot be taken against force weapons,"
So then we would need to use the actual deny the witch rule?
Pg 68, "If a psychic power is targeted on an enemy unit, the target can attempt to deny the witch before the psychic power is resolved."
Grey knight codex, Heroic Sacrifice, Pg 26, "This power can be used when the Brotherhood Champion is removed as a casualty during either player's assault phases. If the Psychic test is successful, the brotherhood champion makes a single attack against one enemy model that was in base contact when he died. If the attack hits, both models are removed as casualties with no saves of any kind allowed. If the attack misses only the brotherhood champion is removed as a casualty."
Grey knight codex, Cleansing Flame, Pg 31, "This power can be used during the assault phase in either player's turn, after assault moves have been made but before blows have been struck. if the psychic test is passed, all enemy models that are part of the same assault suffer once wound on a roll of 4+. Armour saves may be taken as normal. Once the effects of cleansing flame have been resolved (and any casualties removed) blows are struck as normal. Unsaved wounds caused by Cleansing Flame are counted as having been caused in close combat for all purposes."

Neither power makes any mention of targets, so Deny the Witch isn't a viable defense. I will admit however, i could see GW deciding it the other way, as they have final say.

 HoverBoy wrote:
No it doesn't, because the FW rule augments the psyker's own weapon by giving it ID. As such GW saw no need to specify anything.

Pg 37, "Deny the Witch rolls cannot be taken against force weapons"

Hmm guess they did.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
With GW, I'd argue their intent is CC's are targeted. It's always felt that way. However yes RAW I don't see an argument.

I can see DtW not applying to heroic sacrifice but for cleansing flame sure it does, it's a psy power affecting directly the enemy unit, the target part on the description is omitted because usually your target will be the unit you are locked in combat with. Same thing goes for sterns psy power for example, it never states it targets a units but any unit affected would be allowed to DtW


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now that i come to think about it... I'm not sure but Nova psy powers don't specifically target a unit IIRC, so under the logic that if it doesn't say "target" on the power description you are not allowed to DtW, all Nova powers wouldn't a allow it, and I'm pretty sure that would miss the whole point of DtW

 Lord Yayula wrote:
I can see DtW not applying to heroic sacrifice but for cleansing flame sure it does, it's a psy power affecting directly the enemy unit, the target part on the description is omitted because usually your target will be the unit you are locked in combat with. Same thing goes for sterns psy power for example, it never states it targets a units but any unit affected would be allowed to DtW


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now that i come to think about it... I'm not sure but Nova psy powers don't specifically target a unit IIRC, so under the logic that if it doesn't say "target" on the power description you are not allowed to DtW, all Nova powers wouldn't a allow it, and I'm pretty sure that would miss the whole point of DtW

Pg 69, Nova, "A nova power automatically targets and hits all enemy units within the psychic power's maximum range, regardless of line of sight, being locked in combat, intervening models/terrain and so on. Otherwise, a nova is treated like a shooting attack, and indeed will have a profile like a shooting attack."
And yes, i sleep with my book under my pillow.

Bah, true neck-beards eat their rule book, and as such gain whatever knowledge is stored within.

I'll grab my pepper shaker. XD

Per the GK FAQ Cleansing flame is a close combat attack that requires a psyk test that effects all units in CC with the unit. I don't see how a deny the witch roll is taken. Same goes for heroic sac. They are augmented attacks.

 Goat wrote:
Per the GK FAQ Cleansing flame is a close combat attack that requires a psyk test that effects all units in CC with the unit. I don't see how a deny the witch roll is taken. Same goes for heroic sac. They are augmented attacks.

Well the fact its a CC attack does not preclude it from being denied, it does however mean that no cover saves can be taken from it. Its also not a force weapon, nor is it stated to be an extra attack. So it does not fall under the exclusion afforded to force weapons and buffs such as hammer hand. Based on that its safe to say cleansing flame is to novas what Jaws of the world wolf is to beams, something like it but quite. Pretty much a 5th ed version of what 6th ed has. I'd say that Cleansing flame can be denied but on a unit by unit basis like novas to determine who is affected.

As for Heroic sacrifice, its clearly stated that the test and power occurs then the model attacks, there's no denying that power. Nullifying it with a runic weapon however... yes, very possible.

 Bausk wrote:


Well the fact its a CC attack does not preclude it from being denied, it does however mean that no cover saves can be taken from it. Its also not a force weapon, nor is it stated to be an extra attack. So it does not fall under the exclusion afforded to force weapons and buffs such as hammer hand. Based on that its safe to say cleansing flame is to novas what Jaws of the world wolf is to beams, something like it but quite. Pretty much a 5th ed version of what 6th ed has. I'd say that Cleansing flame can be denied but on a unit by unit basis like novas to determine who is affected.

As for Heroic sacrifice, its clearly stated that the test and power occurs then the model attacks, there's no denying that power. Nullifying it with a runic weapon however... yes, very possible.

How is Cleansing flame similar at all to a nova?
A nova is a psychic shooting attack that targets all enemy units within its maximum range.
Cleansing Flame is a psychic close combat attack that inflicts strength 4 wounds on all models in a combat.
They aren't similar at all. And no, you get no Deny the Witch against Cleansing flame, unless you can find the word "TARGET" mentioned somewhere in it's rules. If you don't happen to have a copy of the grey knight codex, i have posted the power above.

Neronoxx wrote:
Grey knight codex, Cleansing Flame, Pg 31, "This power can be used during the assault phase in either player's turn, after assault moves have been made but before blows have been struck. if the psychic test is passed, all enemy models that are part of the same assault suffer once wound on a roll of 4+. Armour saves may be taken as normal. Once the effects of cleansing flame have been resolved (and any casualties removed) blows are struck as normal. Unsaved wounds caused by Cleansing Flame are counted as having been caused in close combat for all purposes."

As you can see, there is no mention of the word "TARGET" which means you cannot Deny the Witch, as that rule clearly states...

Neronoxx wrote:
Pg 68, "If a psychic power is targeted on an enemy unit, the target can attempt to deny the witch before the psychic power is resolved."

So now having been presented with this information, can you find me a justifiable basis for your side of the argument? I agree, it should probably be faq'd so that you DO get Deny the Witch. But sentiment does not trump the rules.

I said nova is the closest 6th ed power to it. It affects all units withing range (all enemy units in the assault, range does not need to be judged by inches), which in turn is much like but not exactly like a nova. There is no requirement for the word target to be used for a unit to deny, just that the unit is targeted directly by the power or rather is the target of the power. As the power is applied directly to the affected (target) unit the test is possible.

 Bausk wrote:
I said nova is the closest 6th ed power to it. It affects all units withing range (all enemy units in the assault, range does not need to be judged by inches), which in turn is much like but not exactly like a nova. There is no requirement for the word target to be used for a unit to deny, just that the unit is targeted directly by the power or rather is the target of the power. As the power is applied directly to the affected (target) unit the test is possible.

Actually the Deny rule says "Is the target of." So rules are posted for the requirement of getting a deny roll. Nova's have rules on how to apply the deny as does jaws of the world wolf. Cleansing flame does not have any stipulation that gives the model/unit a deny roll.

 Goat wrote:

 Bausk wrote:
I said nova is the closest 6th ed power to it. It affects all units withing range (all enemy units in the assault, range does not need to be judged by inches), which in turn is much like but not exactly like a nova. There is no requirement for the word target to be used for a unit to deny, just that the unit is targeted directly by the power or rather is the target of the power. As the power is applied directly to the affected (target) unit the test is possible.

Actually the Deny rule says "Is the target of." So rules are posted for the requirement of getting a deny roll. Nova's have rules on how to apply the deny as does jaws of the world wolf. Cleansing flame does not have any stipulation that gives the model/unit a deny roll.

Wouldn't the "target" be the unit being flamed?

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Goat wrote:

 Bausk wrote:
I said nova is the closest 6th ed power to it. It affects all units withing range (all enemy units in the assault, range does not need to be judged by inches), which in turn is much like but not exactly like a nova. There is no requirement for the word target to be used for a unit to deny, just that the unit is targeted directly by the power or rather is the target of the power. As the power is applied directly to the affected (target) unit the test is possible.

Actually the Deny rule says "Is the target of." So rules are posted for the requirement of getting a deny roll. Nova's have rules on how to apply the deny as does jaws of the world wolf. Cleansing flame does not have any stipulation that gives the model/unit a deny roll.

Wouldn't the "target" be the unit being flamed?

Grey knight codex, Cleansing Flame, Pg 31, "This power can be used during the assault phase in either player's turn, after assault moves have been made but before blows have been struck. if the psychic test is passed, all enemy models that are part of the same assault suffer once wound on a roll of 4+. Armour saves may be taken as normal. Once the effects of cleansing flame have been resolved (and any casualties removed) blows are struck as normal. Unsaved wounds caused by Cleansing Flame are counted as having been caused in close combat for all purposes."

No. I can't find the word target anywhere. Not even in the FAQ. I find the rules to deny the witch for other special psyker attacks in their respective FAQs but not here.

 Goat wrote:

 Bausk wrote:
I said nova is the closest 6th ed power to it. It affects all units withing range (all enemy units in the assault, range does not need to be judged by inches), which in turn is much like but not exactly like a nova. There is no requirement for the word target to be used for a unit to deny, just that the unit is targeted directly by the power or rather is the target of the power. As the power is applied directly to the affected (target) unit the test is possible.

Actually the Deny rule says "Is the target of." So rules are posted for the requirement of getting a deny roll. Nova's have rules on how to apply the deny as does jaws of the world wolf. Cleansing flame does not have any stipulation that gives the model/unit a deny roll.

Again, as the unit is directly affected by the power it IS the target of the power. This is the base rule premise of Deny the Witch, interactions with different subtypes are expanded upon.

Cleansing flame affects, and there fore targets, all enemy units in the same assault. As they are the target, they get to deny.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Goat wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Goat wrote:

 Bausk wrote:
I said nova is the closest 6th ed power to it. It affects all units withing range (all enemy units in the assault, range does not need to be judged by inches), which in turn is much like but not exactly like a nova. There is no requirement for the word target to be used for a unit to deny, just that the unit is targeted directly by the power or rather is the target of the power. As the power is applied directly to the affected (target) unit the test is possible.

Actually the Deny rule says "Is the target of." So rules are posted for the requirement of getting a deny roll. Nova's have rules on how to apply the deny as does jaws of the world wolf. Cleansing flame does not have any stipulation that gives the model/unit a deny roll.

Wouldn't the "target" be the unit being flamed?

Grey knight codex, Cleansing Flame, Pg 31, "This power can be used during the assault phase in either player's turn, after assault moves have been made but before blows have been struck. if the psychic test is passed, all enemy models that are part of the same assault suffer once wound on a roll of 4+. Armour saves may be taken as normal. Once the effects of cleansing flame have been resolved (and any casualties removed) blows are struck as normal. Unsaved wounds caused by Cleansing Flame are counted as having been caused in close combat for all purposes."

No. I can't find the word target anywhere. Not even in the FAQ. I find the rules to deny the witch for other special psyker attacks in their respective FAQs but not here.

Your issue is your confusing the word target with the meaning of the word. The word target does not specifically have to be present in the text of the power for the ability to deny the witch to be taken. Only that the meaning or intent of the word target is present. In other words if the unit in question is literally being targeted by the power. As in you roll the psychic test and apply the power to the unit.

Ok so RAI vs. RAW. Don't people prefer to play a game by the rules rather then play how they feel like things should be played? I guess during a game you can just roll off if a debat happens over it. It is unclear and you can argue RAI vs RAW until people get blue in the face.

 Goat wrote:
No. I can't find the word target anywhere. Not even in the FAQ. I find the rules to deny the witch for other special psyker attacks in their respective FAQs but not here.

Nor do you need to see the word "target" to be a target. You can debate it either way as this scenario is simply a case of the power being a non-current edition wording.