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I don'ti see them as being evil for many reasons. First of all it makes it look like the regular Eldar are good, their not they are capricious and utterly zenophobic. Hell after the Fall the regular Eldar wouldn't offer safe Haven for Eldar not on craft or maiden world so in a lot of ways the parasitic Dark Eldar are basically their fault.

Number two, their doing what they have to do to survive. Killing and torturing is the only way to survive for them, I really can't blame them. The Emperor himself needs sacrifices to survive. I could say more but I feel I've already proven my point.

evil probably not normal eldar would slaughter a world of people on the the of chance that one guardsmen from a regiment raised there in 30 years will kill a single eldar.. but DE they are centinaly quite a bit darker in there methods.

Though i do follow your reasoning, it doesn't make it right. for the torture thing i can go back to... "if all your friends jumped off a bridge would you?" The dark eldar are also evil because they where offered a choice, continue along their path and become what they are or try to redeem themselves (lexicanum fall of the eldar) if given a choice between good and bad and knowingly choosing bad is evil. no way around it.

but both types of eldar kill countless innocents to survive just in different fashions would that make them both evil just because the DE are more gruesome about how doesnt change anything.

Though i do follow your reasoning, it doesn't make it right. for the torture thing i can go back to... "if all your friends jumped off a bridge would you?" The dark eldar are also evil because they where offered a choice, continue along their path and become what they are or try to redeem themselves (lexicanum fall of the eldar) if given a choice between good and bad and knowingly choosing bad is evil. no way around it.

What choice, their kin abandoned them and their souls were slowly being drained, what chance for redemption did they have besides waiting to be tortured for eternity.

That really depends on your definition of evil.

I would follow the line of reasoning that causing unnecessary pain is plenty evil, and by that logic, Dark Eldar are evil.

Of course, you could argue that it's not 'unnecessary' pain because they have to actually feed upon that pain to survive.

However, the mere fact that they take such joy in causing said pain makes them, in my book, pretty damn evil.

Of course not.

ONLY Humans can be evil.
Tyranids aren't evil, they are just following a biological imperative. As are the orks (they were constructed to fight, and fight is what they do).

Evil is a human moral construct. Alien races don't have to comply with human morality.


Causing unnecessary pain is sometimes morally right.
I'd love to inflict it on the makers of Irritainment television (they like to call it "reality TV" - shows like BB, [insert Country] doesn't have talent, X-factor, etc)

I can totally see your point here, but the eldar, for the most part, at least feel a smidgen of regret for what they do occasionally. The dark eldar, however, fully embrace and explore what they "have" to do to survive and go ever deeper into depravity.

 chromedog wrote:
Of course not.

ONLY Humans can be evil.
Tyranids aren't evil, they are just following a biological imperative. As are the orks (they were constructed to fight, and fight is what they do).

Evil is a human moral construct. Alien races don't have to comply with human morality.


Causing unnecessary pain is sometimes morally right.
I'd love to inflict it on the makers of Irritainment television (they like to call it "reality TV" - shows like BB, [insert Country] doesn't have talent, X-factor, etc)

Except the alien races in 40k, as is not uncommon, are(for the most part) written in such a way that we humans can understand, sympathize with, or despise them as we would actual humans, so I think that's not an accurate point to say we can't judge them by our own standards(at least to some degree).

In regard to Dark Eldar being evil, if you accept the contemporary view of the concepts of the good/evil for the purposes of diving the intent of the writers, they come off as, well, evil. I would go so far as to say they're written in such a way as to serve as an 'obviously evil' element(everything about them even *looks* evil).

[Updated] Looking at the codex, literally one of the first things it says is "This is a tale of evil incarnate"...

Yeah, uh, no.


There's not a single school on ethics, morals, or values that would agree with the OP, lol. The Dark Eldar are utterly and completely evil. So admittedly so, that both of their codex books preface themselves describing the Dark Eldar as evil. This is a race that takes slaves for pleasure, torture for pleasure, and sadism... for pleasure.

The Eldar's fate was of their own doing. The measures they now find themselves faced with having to engage in to avoid having their souls devoured by Slaanesh does not serve as an excuse for actually engaging in those measures, lol.

They may not have a choice to cause pain, but they don't just sup on it ever now and again. They slaughter millions because they're bored. And that's BEFORE the sadist/masochist business.

As veteran Sergeant touched upon.

The Dark Eldar did all these sadistic, hedonistic, nurderous things before the fall and the birth of Slaanesh. They did them because they enjoyed doing them, its only after the birth of Slaanesh and the Fall that they only need to do them. Its still wrong.

Think of it this way.

A person enjoys class A narcotics, then over time becomes an addict. The addict NEEDS to do the narcotics. So they mug people rob, and other various illicit activities to get/buy their next hit.
It doesn't mean that suddenly use of Class A narcotics is acceptable because that poor fellow is an addict and not their fault so its all socially acceptable, which is what your implying.

DE are Evil, if we are using absolute alignment terms.

They do nasty things to other sentients, and get a high from their non-consensual suffering.

Doesn't make the regular Eldar Good.

Problem is, Good and Evil are absolutes. Real morality is a deal fuzzier, but even among DE they fully understand that they are a selfish, vicious and sadistic bunch. These qualities are highly prized. in DE society.

By almost anyone's standards, including their own, DE are non-nice people with breathtaking depravity-management issues.

I really enjoy you trying to convince anyone that rape and sadism are somehow tragically heroic under any circumstances. I render your entire argument invalid by pointing out that 40k is Grimdark, and there is by definition, little, if any, good left in any of the known factions. The IoM itself is a regime of supported tyranny that, in a nutshell is "good" because it has no other option left but to strive blindly forward at full tilt with the screaming masses of trillions of souls behind it. By our standards of good on this planet however, the IoM would be so evil that even Hitler would have to sit down and take lessons in brutality from the Inquisition, Ecclesiarchy and the Administratum.

The alien races are written from a human propaganda point of view for the most part.

This alone negates that entire angle.

It would perhaps be more accurate to say that they are no more evil than the human imperium, and in some cases, the imperium is more evil (1000 psykers are sacrificed PER DAY to keep one superannuated corpse going.). Entire worlds are put to the sword, and the daily loss of millions of lives are also not mere peccadilloes.

Many of the deaths the imperium causes are justified, though. They don't go killing already tortured slaves for the heck of it, and they certainly don't enjoy it. They actually believe that what they are doing is right, so it doesn't make them bad.

If you actually, properly believe killing somebody is the honest, true, good way to go, then really, you aren't evil.

The Imperium sacrifices a thousand psykers per day because if they didn't, their only means of FTL space travel and communications would go down, and the galaxy would become flooded by Chaos, which is good for no one but Chaos.

The Dark Eldar maim, kill, torture, rape, and backstab primarily because they enjoy it, and notably they do this to eachother, so the tragic angle is rendereded entirely moot.

Legion of Flame wrote:
Many of the deaths the imperium causes are justified, though. They don't go killing already tortured slaves for the heck of it, and they certainly don't enjoy it. They actually believe that what they are doing is right, so it doesn't make them bad.

If you actually, properly believe killing somebody is the honest, true, good way to go, then really, you aren't evil.

Being deluded is no "get out of the jail" ticket. Otherwise every murderous fanatic, no matter if his/her motivation is race/ religion/ the colour of your hair, could be excused simply because he/her believed in the righteous nature of his/her crimes.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
The Imperium sacrifices a thousand psykers per day because if they didn't, their only means of FTL space travel and communications would go down, and the galaxy would become flooded by Chaos, which is good for no one but Chaos.

The Dark Eldar maim, kill, torture, rape, and backstab primarily because they enjoy it, and notably they do this to eachother, so the tragic angle is rendereded entirely moot.

The Dark Eldar maim, kill, torture, rape and backstab because if they didn't, their souls would be consumed by Slaanesh and their race would cease to exist, which is good for no one but Chaos.

See what I did there?

The argument 'A cannot be evil, because A makes B look good in comparison, and B is not good' is quite possibly the craziest bit of logic I've seen in a long time. Kudos!

In Warhammer 40,000 no-one is good, no-one is evil, every race & faction is a shade of grey. By our standards of 'good' and 'evil' every faction is utterly evil but also capable of good.

Legion of Flame wrote:
Many of the deaths the imperium causes are justified, though. They don't go killing already tortured slaves for the heck of it, and they certainly don't enjoy it. They actually believe that what they are doing is right, so it doesn't make them bad.

If you actually, properly believe killing somebody is the honest, true, good way to go, then really, you aren't evil.

I guess not. That's a pretty Evel Knieval style jump over a logic gap though.

Ultimately, the society is evil. There's no such thing as cultural relativism on issues like this. You can't wave off the actions of a society simply because "that's the way they are". I mean, the Imperium is pretty questionable as well. Nobody would ever suggest that they are "good", or even morally "okay". But at least all of their atrocities are done under the belief of a greater benefit to the society. The Dark Eldar just do all of this stuff for purely selfish reasons, and to offset an act of their own doing.

If everything in 40K is a scale of "Well, how evil is this?", with the Tau at one end under "Well, it's only the Ethereals who are really evil", meeting the Imperium about halfway under "Well, it's either small evils, or annihilation", then the Dark Eldar fight with Chaos for the title of "Evil just for the heck of it" title.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
If everything in 40K is a scale of "Well, how evil is this?", with the Tau at one end under "Well, it's only the Ethereals who are really evil", meeting the Imperium about halfway under "Well, it's either small evils, or annihilation", then the Dark Eldar fight with Chaos for the title of "Evil just for the heck of it" title.

The Dark Eldar actually need to perform their acts of evil for their own survival. This doesn't make those acts any less evil, but it requires them to be just as ruthless as the Imperium is.

The DE codex has that one bit of fluff about (I believe) Lady Malys raiding a mechanicum world in order to destroy some medical research that would have cured or prevented some disease. This raid was done as part of a challenge to hurt the Imperium. Causing pain and suffering just to cause pain and suffering. That's evil.

 Mandor wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
If everything in 40K is a scale of "Well, how evil is this?", with the Tau at one end under "Well, it's only the Ethereals who are really evil", meeting the Imperium about halfway under "Well, it's either small evils, or annihilation", then the Dark Eldar fight with Chaos for the title of "Evil just for the heck of it" title.

The Dark Eldar actually need to perform their acts of evil for their own survival. This doesn't make those acts any less evil, but it requires them to be just as ruthless as the Imperium is.

It doesn't "require" anything. They do it to extend their own lives preternaturally, lol. They are attempting to remain immortal by consuming the souls of other living things. This isn't like me eating a chicken because I need food, or even the Imperium sacrificing psykers to fuel the Golden Throne.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Mandor wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
If everything in 40K is a scale of "Well, how evil is this?", with the Tau at one end under "Well, it's only the Ethereals who are really evil", meeting the Imperium about halfway under "Well, it's either small evils, or annihilation", then the Dark Eldar fight with Chaos for the title of "Evil just for the heck of it" title.

The Dark Eldar actually need to perform their acts of evil for their own survival. This doesn't make those acts any less evil, but it requires them to be just as ruthless as the Imperium is.

It doesn't "require" anything. They do it to extend their own lives preternaturally, lol. They are attempting to remain immortal by consuming the souls of other living things. This isn't like me eating a chicken because I need food, or even the Imperium sacrificing psykers to fuel the Golden Throne.

Immortality is just a side effect. Their souls would be consumed by Slaanesh if they don't perform the acts they do. I'm not saying they are not evil. They are evil. But would the chicken consider you evil because you need it for survival?

 chromedog wrote:
The alien races are written from a human propaganda point of view for the most part.

This alone negates that entire angle.

It would perhaps be more accurate to say that they are no more evil than the human imperium, and in some cases, the imperium is more evil (1000 psykers are sacrificed PER DAY to keep one superannuated corpse going.). Entire worlds are put to the sword, and the daily loss of millions of lives are also not mere peccadilloes.

10,000 pyskers power the golden throne - As for the death toll, the imperium does what they need to survive

 Mandor wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Mandor wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
If everything in 40K is a scale of "Well, how evil is this?", with the Tau at one end under "Well, it's only the Ethereals who are really evil", meeting the Imperium about halfway under "Well, it's either small evils, or annihilation", then the Dark Eldar fight with Chaos for the title of "Evil just for the heck of it" title.

The Dark Eldar actually need to perform their acts of evil for their own survival. This doesn't make those acts any less evil, but it requires them to be just as ruthless as the Imperium is.

It doesn't "require" anything. They do it to extend their own lives preternaturally, lol. They are attempting to remain immortal by consuming the souls of other living things. This isn't like me eating a chicken because I need food, or even the Imperium sacrificing psykers to fuel the Golden Throne.

Immortality is just a side effect. Their souls would be consumed by Slaanesh if they don't perform the acts they do. I'm not saying they are not evil. They are evil. But would the chicken consider you evil because you need it for survival?

The problem is, the morality trap is that having their souls eaten by Slaanesh is a predicament of their own causing. A person is born needing to eat stuff. Chickens occupy the unenviable lower spot on the food chain. The Eldar weren't born being so uncontrollably bangy that they unleashed the Evil God of Raping Stuff. They did that themselves, lol. Rather than accept their fate, they realized that if they were even more rapey, that Slaanesh would cut them a break.

So, yeah, the Dark Eldar are ultimately "doing what they have to to survive", but that also stems from a conscious decision to survive by consuming others. The rest of it, the torture, the slavery, etc. That's just for fun.

 chromedog wrote:
The alien races are written from a human propaganda point of view for the most part.

This alone negates that entire angle.

It would perhaps be more accurate to say that they are no more evil than the human imperium, and in some cases, the imperium is more evil (1000 psykers are sacrificed PER DAY to keep one superannuated corpse going.). Entire worlds are put to the sword, and the daily loss of millions of lives are also not mere peccadilloes.

Not sure where you're getting the 'human propaganda' part. What specific parts of their background writing do you think are meant to be taken as propaganda? The intent of writers to convey "hey, these are really, really, bad guys, no seriously" seems blatant and straight-forward.

CORSAIR CAPTAIN wrote:
I don'ti see them as being evil for many reasons. First of all it makes it look like the regular Eldar are good, their not they are capricious and utterly zenophobic. Hell after the Fall the regular Eldar wouldn't offer safe Haven for Eldar not on craft or maiden world so in a lot of ways the parasitic Dark Eldar are basically their fault.

Regular Eldar are far preferable to Dark Eldar, but they still aren't "good" imo.

Number two, their doing what they have to do to survive. Killing and torturing is the only way to survive for them, I really can't blame them. The Emperor himself needs sacrifices to survive. I could say more but I feel I've already proven my point.

The problem is, they deeply enjoy killing and torturing. So this argument doesn't fly. Not that it'd really fly anyway because there's always the Eldar option for them, using the Path systems then going to a spirit stone.