Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So Ihave heard that if swarms take instant death from a template they do not also take double hits like they normally would. Is this true?

 Chaos Rising wrote:
So Ihave heard that if swarms take instant death from a template they do not also take double hits like they normally would. Is this true?

I can't think of a reason they would not take instant death. There was an entire thread on this, but our crap search function can't find it. Maybe it's just operator error an someone else can find it for you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/483504.page#4895049

Here it is. People not using proper terminology in titles.

Both effects occur when a swarm suffers an unsaved wound they would occur at the same time the model would take two wounds both of which cause instant death. Template hits do not cause double hits, unsaved wounds suffered from template or blasts are doubled. Instant death is also checked for when the model suffers an unsaved wound at double it's toughness.

I'm assuming he was thinking blast when he put template

T3 swarm gets wounded with 4 str 6 hits from a blast, 8 bases die. Amount of saves required is doubled, effect of those wounds is ID.

The amount of saves are not doubled. The first line in swarms says when a swarm suffers unsaved wounds from blasts or templates each unsaved wound is doubled. Now we look at the Special Rules definition on pg 32 and only models have special rules. If we then extrapolate from there for the Swarms rule it would read. "If a model with Swarm suffers an unsaved wound from Blasts or Templates, each unsaved wound is multiplied to two unsaved wounds." Since the wounds only go from the wound pool to the model to be suffered one at a time then you would apply an unsaved wound, multiply it to two, then check for ID. One base lost per unsaved wound.

If the save's are all the same you take saves, then allocate wounds to the unit, killing one base per unsaved wound because of ID.

So in this situation:

 Lobukia wrote:
T3 swarm gets wounded with 4 str 6 hits from a blast, 8 bases die.

take 4 saves, if you fail 4, then you have 8 wounds to allocate, and 8 bases die because those wounds cause ID.

 DeathReaper wrote:
If the save's are all the same you take saves, then allocate wounds to the unit, killing one base per unsaved wound because of ID.

So in this situation:

 Lobukia wrote:
T3 swarm gets wounded with 4 str 6 hits from a blast, 8 bases die.

take 4 saves, if you fail 4, then you have 8 wounds to allocate, and 8 bases die because those wounds cause ID.

Not true.
4 saves, if 4 fail you allocate a wound, it's doubled, the base dies. There are 3 wounds in the pool.

When are wounds suffered? A rule similar to this is FNP, as it also says suffered. It's current existence including the changes in the FAQ shows that it's not once the wound is unsaved but when the wound is allocated to the model itself. If we count the pool of unsaved wounds as having been suffered then what other rules are triggered even if something prevents the wounds? Feel No Pain, Concussive, Force, Pinning all use the same wording of suffering an unsaved wound. FNP has set a precedent for how all these things should work, one at a time at the time of allocation. If you assume that the unsaved wounds have already been suffered and are doubled before allocation then what's to stop sniper fire from causing a pinning test before Feel No Pain as being my shooting phase I choose that ability to activate before Feel No Pain, same with Concussive or Force?

 DeathReaper wrote:
If the save's are all the same you take saves, then allocate wounds to the unit, killing one base per unsaved wound because of ID.

So in this situation:

 Lobukia wrote:
T3 swarm gets wounded with 4 str 6 hits from a blast, 8 bases die.

take 4 saves, if you fail 4, then you have 8 wounds to allocate, and 8 bases die because those wounds cause ID.

Touché, I agree. I had the SR switched in my head.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
If the save's are all the same you take saves, then allocate wounds to the unit, killing one base per unsaved wound because of ID.

So in this situation:

 Lobukia wrote:
T3 swarm gets wounded with 4 str 6 hits from a blast, 8 bases die.

take 4 saves, if you fail 4, then you have 8 wounds to allocate, and 8 bases die because those wounds cause ID.

Not true.
4 saves, if 4 fail you allocate a wound, it's doubled, the base dies. There are 3 wounds in the pool.

3 wounds is incorrect.

The wounds are doubled when they suffer the unsaved wounds, which happens immediately after failed saves.

So fail 4 saves, there are now 8 wounds in the wound pool, and they all cause ID. (P.43 for swarm rules).

@Gravmyr you must take FNP before you suffer an unsaved wound, though if you fail FNP then that unsaved wound is doubled.

FNP states "When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound..." so clearly the Wound is suffered triggering the other abilities listed above if you are doing it as soon as the wound is unsaved. Units cannot suffer Wounds only models as a unit does not have a Wounds characteristic only each model. Only upon allocation does the model suffer a wound.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
If the save's are all the same you take saves, then allocate wounds to the unit, killing one base per unsaved wound because of ID.

So in this situation:

 Lobukia wrote:
T3 swarm gets wounded with 4 str 6 hits from a blast, 8 bases die.

take 4 saves, if you fail 4, then you have 8 wounds to allocate, and 8 bases die because those wounds cause ID.

Not true.
4 saves, if 4 fail you allocate a wound, it's doubled, the base dies. There are 3 wounds in the pool.

3 wounds is incorrect.

The wounds are doubled when they suffer the unsaved wounds, which happens immediately after failed saves.

So fail 4 saves, there are now 8 wounds in the wound pool, and they all cause ID. (P.43 for swarm rules).

The swarm rules (have you read them) say to double a wound when the Swarm (a model based rule) suffers an unsaved wound.
Find permission to move that doubled wound back into the wound pool.

I have read them, they say to double the wounds.

Since the swarm has the same armor save you roll the saves in one go, and apply the wounds to the models in the unit. (15)

So you roll 4 saves, fail them all then you double the wounds to 8 wounds and remove the models as neede as outlined on P.15.

Gravmyr wrote:
Units cannot suffer Wounds only models as a unit does not have a Wounds characteristic only each model.

Well no models take saves either...
As per P.15 "the target unit gets to make one saving throw, if it has one (see page 15), for each Wound being resolved."

RAW the unit makes the save, and units do not have armor so no save can be attempted. Or they use the word Unit and models in said unit interchangeably.

 DeathReaper wrote:
I have read them, they say to double the wounds.

You left some important words out.

Since the swarm has the same armor save you roll the saves in one go, and apply the wounds to the models in the unit. (15)

So you roll 4 saves, fail them all then you double the wounds to 8 wounds and remove the models as neede as outlined on P.15.

Incorrect. You double the wounds when they are suffered. As FNP shows us, the wound is not suffered until the model is allocated.
Now find permission to return the wound to the wound pool.

Historically I haven't but I lean towards Gravmyr here, Special Rules are defined as belonging to models, so unless they say they affect an entire unit when it contains said models (which swarms does not) you can't apply the rules on a unit basis.

Imagine if you will a unit composed of 1 swarm and 1 not-swarm, if it suffers a wound that causes instant death from a blast weapon, but that wound is assigned to the model without the Swarms rule, there's no reason for it to double, it doesn't matter that you have generated an unsaved wound at the precise time that you failed the save, it's completely and utterly illegal for the Swarms rule to have it's effects applied to a model without Swarms, be they positive or negative.

The same goes for if a unit only partially has Feel No Pain but otherwise identical saves, it doesn't matter that you are meant to roll once you suffer the wound, because it's not at all correct for a model in that unit that does not possess Feel No Pain to benefit from it.

These rules have to apply only once you know that the model actually receiving the wound has the special rule and no sooner, and given the wound is "multiplied" I figure it should inherit all traits of the wound it is multiplied from, including which model is actually suffering it.

And you suffer unsaved wounds after failed saves. which is before allocation.

 Drunkspleen wrote:
Special Rules are defined as belonging to models, so unless they say they affect an entire unit when it contains said models (which swarms does not) you can't apply the rules on a unit basis.

no models take saves either...
As per P.15 "the target unit gets to make one saving throw, if it has one (see page 15), for each Wound being resolved."

RAW the unit makes the save, and units do not have armor so no save can be attempted. Or they use the word Unit and models in said unit interchangeably.

 DeathReaper wrote:
And you suffer unsaved wounds after failed saves. which is before allocation.

So FNP rolls come before allocation as well?

FNP is a strange case because it treats unsaved wounds as saved if the test is made.

Though RAW FNP is broken.

That is not a surprise, many rules are broken in this edition.

But so are armor saves, as it says that units can take an armor save, which of course is untrue as models have AS values not units.

Regardless, the unit suffers wounds before allocation.
The Swarm rule is model based, and therefore requires allocation before it doubles.

 DeathReaper wrote:
And you suffer unsaved wounds after failed saves. which is before allocation.

 Drunkspleen wrote:
Special Rules are defined as belonging to models, so unless they say they affect an entire unit when it contains said models (which swarms does not) you can't apply the rules on a unit basis.

no models take saves either...
As per P.15 "the target unit gets to make one saving throw, if it has one (see page 15), for each Wound being resolved."

RAW the unit makes the save, and units do not have armor so no save can be attempted. Or they use the word Unit and models in said unit interchangeably.

Of course, the context of that is that the immediately preceding paragraph says "For now, we're going to assume that all the models in the target unit have the same saving throw" making it abundantly clear to a reasonable person that the "unit's saving throw" is the one shared by all members of said unit.

Either way, I don't see how your insistence that "Unit" and "models in said unit" are interchangeable terms effects my point that if you double wounds on a unit basis rather than a model basis you risk fundamentally breaking the rules by allowing a model without a special rule to experience the effects of that special rule.

Under types of saving throws: Armour saves pg 16, "To make an armour save,roll a d6 and compare the results to the Armour Save characteristic of the model that has been allocated the Wound." Clearly if any save is taken then the wound is allocated first. The reason for doing a bulk roll is to speed up the game.

When does a model suffer a wound?

Example
Q: If a character is removed from play as a casualty after fighting a
challenge, are any excess unsaved Wounds counted when
determining assault results? (p65)
A: No –only the Wounds actually suffered in the challenge
count.

This again shows that wounds are suffered when applied to a model not when sitting in the wound pool.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:

no models take saves either...
As per P.15 "the target unit gets to make one saving throw, if it has one (see page 16), for each Wound being resolved."

RAW the unit makes the save, and units do not have armor so no save can be attempted. Or they use the word Unit and models in said unit interchangeably.

As an aside pg 15 also states:
"The model gets to make a saving throw....."

I understand that in the same saving throw section it states that the unit takes saves but again short hand or they would be trying to add another hundred pages. The mixed saves section states they do as does the actual armour save section. The saves are always taken on a model by model basis but just like in the rest of life they are trying to save time.

Gravmyr wrote:
Under types of saving throws: Armour saves pg 16, "To make an armour save,roll a d6 and compare the results to the Armour Save characteristic of the model that has been allocated the Wound." Clearly if any save is taken then the wound is allocated first. The reason for doing a bulk roll is to speed up the game.

When does a model suffer a wound?

Example
Q: If a character is removed from play as a casualty after fighting a
challenge, are any excess unsaved Wounds counted when
determining assault results? (p65)
A: No –only the Wounds actually suffered in the challenge
count.

This again shows that wounds are suffered when applied to a model not when sitting in the wound pool.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:

no models take saves either...
As per P.15 "the target unit gets to make one saving throw, if it has one (see page 16), for each Wound being resolved."

RAW the unit makes the save, and units do not have armor so no save can be attempted. Or they use the word Unit and models in said unit interchangeably.

As an aside pg 15 also states:
"The model gets to make a saving throw....."

I understand that in the same saving throw section it states that the unit takes saves but again short hand or they would be trying to add another hundred pages. The mixed saves section states they do as does the actual armour save section. The saves are always taken on a model by model basis but just like in the rest of life they are trying to save time.

Going with Gravmyr on this. He's provided sufficient evidence to support his claims.

Gravmyr wrote:
I understand that in the same saving throw section it states that the unit takes saves but again short hand or they would be trying to add another hundred pages.

So they use the word Unit and models in said unit interchangeably.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Gravmyr wrote:
I understand that in the same saving throw section it states that the unit takes saves but again short hand or they would be trying to add another hundred pages.

So they use the word Unit and models in said unit interchangeably.

Yes.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Gravmyr wrote:
I understand that in the same saving throw section it states that the unit takes saves but again short hand or they would be trying to add another hundred pages.

So they use the word Unit and models in said unit interchangeably.

Which has zero relevancy - as the Swarm SR (the thing that actually doubles the wounds) is model based and therefore requires allocation to happen before its doubled.

You still haven't found (or at least cited) permission to move a wound back into the pool.

I fail to see how that changes a thing. Yes they use short hand. And? As the quote from the FAQ shows wounds are only suffered when a model is allocated the wound, fails it's save and then reduces it's remaining wounds by one. If a Swarm had FNP how would you do it in your model? Would you roll each of the 8 Wounds on FNP?

Using your model the wounds have not been suffered but are still sitting in a pool. If that is the case then there are a number of rules that automatically kick in whether or not the wound has been allocated. You haven't provided a single rules quote that backs you in the slightest.

Scenario:
A unit is targeted by Snipers. They take 6 Wounds, 1 is precision, and because of identical saves make a bulk save roll and fail 4, leaving 4 Wounds in the wound pool, including the Precision.

Your Method triggers a Pinning Test immediately using the highest LD.

Prescribed Method allows me to force the Precision first on the highest LD model forcing them to take a pinning test after he has been removed.


The Swarm USR states when a Swarm suffers an unsaved wound, not when a swarm fails it's save. How would you rule it if I added an IC to the unit? One base of swarm in front IC then the rest of the swarm unit behind, all with the same saves. The first base takes a hit from the said weapons fails it's roll has the wound doubled and causes ID. Would the second wound now auto carry over to the IC? In your model yes as he is part of a Swarm unit and he also gets no save. The way I have set forth the Base takes a hit makes it's save fails has the wound on it doubled then is checked for ID. The next hit hits the IC and resolved as normal with no doubling on a failed save.

Wounds always go to the wound pool before they can be allocated. If a model takes a wound the wound doubles. You know have one allocated and one wound that is not yet allocate as the "wound doubled". Not the "wound allocated to the model doubled". So where does this wound start? Based on wound ruleson pg 14 all the wounds you have caused would go in to the pool. This wound include wounds caused by target special rules such as vulnerable to blast/template. This is the rules are arguement for RAW that supports the RAI of "vulnerable to blasts/tmeplates". Each wound should double out a base.

The Swarm USR states when a Swarm suffers an unsaved wound, not when a swarm fails it's save. How would you rule it if I added an IC to the unit? One base of swarm in front IC then the rest of the swarm unit behind, all with the same saves. The first base takes a hit from the said weapons fails it's roll has the wound doubled and causes ID. Would the second wound now auto carry over to the IC? In your model yes as he is part of a Swarm unit and he also gets no save. The way I have set forth the Base takes a hit makes it's save fails has the wound on it doubled then is checked for ID. The next hit hits the IC and resolved as normal with no doubling on a failed save.

There is no reason in either case for the IC to not get an armour save. Yes the second would would auto carry over to the IC, who assuming his Sav was higher than the AP would get a save. However any wounds he took would not be doubled.

There is a sneaky problem with this rule doubling wounds as the model takes them instead of simply doubling the pool. In RAW there is nothing to limit the doubling affect of wounds if they trigger as the model is wounded, creating a rule that effectively wipes units out with a single template wound. In Gravmyr's scenario there is nothing that prevents the doubled wound from doubling again and jumping to the next base.

The wound hits a Swarm model. The suffered wound is doubled - if it's not ID, the Swarm has now suffered 2 wounds.

If it is ID, find permission to move that 2nd wound to the wound pool after it has already been suffered.

rigeld2 wrote:
The wound hits a Swarm model. The suffered wound is doubled - if it's not ID, the Swarm has now suffered 2 wounds.

If it is ID, find permission to move that 2nd wound to the wound pool after it has already been suffered.

Well I'm missing something (no sarcasm), because (leaving an IC out of the equation), allocation seems to happen after failing saves on page 15. So you would allocate 1 unsaved wound at a time (swarm causing that number to x2), causing ID with each wound. I don't need to go back to the wound pool, so I couldn't care less about needing permission to do it. Wound pool = saves needed (if possible) allocation is wounds caused (which would already be doubled), which would be IDing bases one ID wound at a time.

Putting an IC into a swarm squad actually can change the order (as per page 15), and now the wound pool matters. Then I can see your point, but RAW, without an IC, 1 unsaved wound can cause two ID wounds, killing 2 bases of swarm models if they fail their save/don't have one.

You can only allocate wounds from the wound pool. So in order to allocate the doubled wound you would have to "put" it back to the wound pool, but that is forbidden. And in any case the presence of an IC should not change how a wound resolves.