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 Da Boss wrote:
Necro and others supporting the view that the take home message here is that "both parties are idiots":
- One party is an innocent who made a dumbass decision. Being 16, it's not that surprising. One party (if allegations are true) has committed a heinous crime, one of the worst. Do not equivocate unless you want to look like an donkey-cave.

So she's an innocent who made a dumbass decision. I guess where I come from people that do dumbass things are also called stupid. The other party has committed a crime, and assuming the courts agree with me, they will do whatever time is given them by the law. Both parties are stupid.

You're not being a courageous defender of individual responsibility. You're being an insensitive donkey-cave.

I guess it's just how I was raised. It's too easy to blame others for your own shortcomings. My dad lost his job because he drank until the wee hours of the morning, went in to work and blew a .01 on a random breathalyzer. Did he blame the company he worked for? No, he knew it was his fault. He didn't know the business was going to test him that day, so he rolled the dice. Does this mean that I think she should have been or deserved to be raped? No. I just realize that she put herself in a bad spot at the wrong time. Am I an donkey-cave for thinking that? Sure, if you want me to be.

 Da Boss wrote:
Read this thread a while ago and decided to wait to comment til I wasn't angry any more. Didn't get any less angry so I'll post now.

Necro and others supporting the view that the take home message here is that "both parties are idiots":
- One party is an innocent who made a dumbass decision. Being 16, it's not that surprising. One party (if allegations are true) has committed a heinous crime, one of the worst. Do not equivocate unless you want to look like an donkey-cave.

People who are complaining about drunk hook ups resulting in rape allegations: Don't hook up with girls when they're drunk, then. It's the same goddamned personal responsibility argument that gets trotted out at the girls in reverse. A girl who did that would rightly be reviled, but I bet you wouldn't get many saying "He let himself in for it by hooking up with a drunk girl!"

The victims of rape often face exclusion and harassment in their home communities. Attitudes like yours contribute to this environment, whether you think they do or not. You're not being a courageous defender of individual responsibility. You're being an insensitive donkey-cave.

We are in complete agreement.

Mattman154 wrote:

So she's an innocent who made a dumbass decision. I guess where I come from people that do dumbass things are also called stupid.

Do you think that blaming the victim, in this thread, is smart?

 dogma wrote:

Mattman154 wrote:

So she's an innocent who made a dumbass decision. I guess where I come from people that do dumbass things are also called stupid.

Do you think that blaming the victim, in this thread, is smart?

What exactly am I blaming the victim for?

Mattman154 wrote:

 dogma wrote:

Mattman154 wrote:

So she's an innocent who made a dumbass decision. I guess where I come from people that do dumbass things are also called stupid.

Do you think that blaming the victim, in this thread, is smart?

What exactly am I blaming the victim for?

Who knows...
All that is important is that you Blame the Victim.

 purplefood wrote:

Mattman154 wrote:

 dogma wrote:

Mattman154 wrote:

So she's an innocent who made a dumbass decision. I guess where I come from people that do dumbass things are also called stupid.

Do you think that blaming the victim, in this thread, is smart?

What exactly am I blaming the victim for?

Who knows...
All that is important is that you Blame the Victim.

Apparently

Mattman154 wrote:

 purplefood wrote:

Mattman154 wrote:

 dogma wrote:

Mattman154 wrote:

So she's an innocent who made a dumbass decision. I guess where I come from people that do dumbass things are also called stupid.

Do you think that blaming the victim, in this thread, is smart?

What exactly am I blaming the victim for?

Who knows...
All that is important is that you Blame the Victim.

Apparently

Yeah I'm still trying to figure that part out.

Victim Blaming is actually a serious thing, but on Dakka it holds a more special meaning...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/390/319627.page#1983259

 Alfndrate wrote:
Victim Blaming is actually a serious thing, but on Dakka it holds a more special meaning...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/390/319627.page#1983259

The mods should allow him back on DakkaDakka just for gaks and giggles, in some ways I wonder if this site destroyed his sanity.

Wow Alfndrate I had never seen that, always wondered where that came from. Don't really have much to contribute to the thread but wow on that link...

Mattman154 wrote:
Am I an donkey-cave for thinking that? Sure, if you want me to be.

You're not an donkey-cave for noting that the girl did something that made her more vulnerable to the crime in question. That's an important lesson for everyone - don't assume the other people are decent human beings, don't make yourself vulnerable to people you don't know well.

Which means if you're going to drink yourself to oblivion, make sure there are people around that you know and trust who are remaining at least somewhat sober, so they can look out for you if there's trouble.

But that isn't really what you or necro were on about. You were all about dismissing the girl in question, pointing out she made a mistake (turns out 16 year olds will do that...) and thereby attempting to minimise the sympathy people ought to feel for her.

For that, you are most definitely an donkey-cave.

 sebster wrote:

Mattman154 wrote:
Am I an donkey-cave for thinking that? Sure, if you want me to be.

You're not an donkey-cave for noting that the girl did something that made her more vulnerable to the crime in question. That's an important lesson for everyone - don't assume the other people are decent human beings, don't make yourself vulnerable to people you don't know well.

Which means if you're going to drink yourself to oblivion, make sure there are people around that you know and trust who are remaining at least somewhat sober, so they can look out for you if there's trouble.

But that isn't really what you or necro were on about. You were all about dismissing the girl in question, pointing out she made a mistake (turns out 16 year olds will do that...) and thereby attempting to minimise the sympathy people ought to feel for her.

For that, you are most definitely an donkey-cave.

Hm, that's fair. Although I didn't feel like my actions were to try and minimize sympathy, I can see people reading it like that. Thanks for the response!

Mattman wrote:

You're not being a courageous defender of individual responsibility. You're being an insensitive donkey-cave.

I guess it's just how I was raised. It's too easy to blame others for your own shortcomings. My dad lost his job because he drank until the wee hours of the morning, went in to work and blew a .01 on a random breathalyzer. Did he blame the company he worked for? No, he knew it was his fault. He didn't know the business was going to test him that day, so he rolled the dice. Does this mean that I think she should have been or deserved to be raped? No. I just realize that she put herself in a bad spot at the wrong time. Am I an donkey-cave for thinking that? Sure, if you want me to be.

So, you're comparing getting drunk at a party to getting drunk at work?

Women shouldn't be blamed for rape, even partially. The people who, you know, stuck a cock in them should be blamed for the rape.

Well, the Dakka OT has handled this subject with the class and intelligence that I have come to expect.

Here I was hoping to be surprised.

At least we managed to blame the victim.

 LoneLictor wrote:
Women shouldn't be blamed for rape, even partially. The people who, you know, stuck a cock in them should be blamed for the rape.

I agree! It's a good thing I'm not advocating blaming the victim. I'm saying she did something stupid.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Monster Rain wrote:
At least we managed to blame the victim.

We did? Which post?


Edit: As far as this "blame the victim" stuff, is that always indecent? Take a look at this article: http://www.injurytriallawyer.com/blog/pedestrian-hit-by-metro-bus-in-downtown-seattle.cfm

Do you think it's wrong of me to blame the person hit by the bus for being hit by the bus? Please note I'm not trying to compare this to the rape case. Just don't feel like it deserves it's own thread.

 sebster wrote:

Mattman154 wrote:
Am I an donkey-cave for thinking that? Sure, if you want me to be.

You're not an donkey-cave for noting that the girl did something that made her more vulnerable to the crime in question. That's an important lesson for everyone - don't assume the other people are decent human beings, don't make yourself vulnerable to people you don't know well.

Which means if you're going to drink yourself to oblivion, make sure there are people around that you know and trust who are remaining at least somewhat sober, so they can look out for you if there's trouble.

But that isn't really what you or necro were on about. You were all about dismissing the girl in question, pointing out she made a mistake (turns out 16 year olds will do that...) and thereby attempting to minimise the sympathy people ought to feel for her.

For that, you are most definitely an donkey-cave.

If being an ass means assessing both parties and finding legitimately issues with their choice of activities, then I'll be an ass all day err day, and happily.

Seriously though, some people take a look at things from a neutral point of view. Being overly sympathetic or vindictive to either party obscures your view from the greater picture, which I've seen people do numerous times on this board and this thread is no different. I think both parties did something stupid. Some of you think that the girl is a saint who can do no wrong and the boys are scum, while some like myself believe both parties are in the wrong to some degree or another. In the end it really won't matter, as we weren't there and we aren't the ones making the ruling.

Here's something to think about, what if the girl IS lying about the rape? I can accept this happening, just as easily as I can accept the boys drugged and raped her. Refusing to believe that only what you think happened might not be truth is more than a bit narrow minded. It would seem you're not calling me an ass because I'm harsh, you're calling me an ass because you don't like hearing not stick to the side of the story you believe.

 Monster Rain wrote:
Well, the Dakka OT has handled this subject with the class and intelligence that I have come to expect.

Here I was hoping to be surprised.

At least we managed to blame the victim.

You're welcome!

 Necroshea wrote:
Seriously though, some people take a look at things from a neutral point of view. Being overly sympathetic or vindictive to either party obscures your view from the greater picture, which I've seen people do numerous times on this board and this thread is no different. I think both parties did something stupid. Some of you think that the girl is a saint who can do no wrong and the boys are scum, while some like myself believe both parties are in the wrong to some degree or another. In the end it really won't matter, as we weren't there and we aren't the ones making the ruling.

Here's something to think about, what if the girl IS lying about the rape? I can accept this happening, just as easily as I can accept the boys drugged and raped her. Refusing to believe that only what you think happened might not be truth is more than a bit narrow minded. It would seem you're not calling me an ass because I'm harsh, you're calling me an ass because you don't like hearing not stick to the side of the story you believe.

These are the words I think in my head but can't put in text.

Mattman154 wrote:
What exactly am I blaming the victim for?

You claimed that the victim of a rape made a "dumbass decision" and that, where you come from, people that do "dumbass things" are called "stupid". Where I come from that collection of ideas entails passing blame on to the victim of the rape, by way of calling said victim's decisions "dumbass" and said victim "stupid". In this particular instance those decisions involve getting drunk, which is what you are immediately blaming this particular victim for.

If you honestly didn't know you were making such a statement, then I'm at a loss for further words.

 Necroshea wrote:

Seriously though, some people take a look at things from a neutral point of view. Being overly sympathetic or vindictive to either party obscures your view from the greater picture, which I've seen people do numerous times on this board and this thread is no different.

Somehow I doubt that the person who describes a woman as having likely dressed like a "skank" without any available evidence is coming from a neutral position.

 dogma wrote:

 Necroshea wrote:

Seriously though, some people take a look at things from a neutral point of view. Being overly sympathetic or vindictive to either party obscures your view from the greater picture, which I've seen people do numerous times on this board and this thread is no different.

Somehow I doubt that the person who describes a woman as having likely dressed like a "skank" without any available evidence is coming from a neutral position.

This again. Please cite where I said that. What's odd though is I remember somebody else saying that but it's not coming up, not even them asking it. Odd.

 Necroshea wrote:

This again. Please cite where I said that. What's odd though is I remember somebody else saying that but it's not coming up, not even them asking it. Odd.

Here.

 Necroshea wrote:
Personally I think that the girl just dressed like a skank and the doctor liked it. However after hearing about it the doctors wife made some threats and got him to fire her.


I still think this is totally wrong. If a worker is dressing inappropriately then there needs to be a notice or warning, and continues infractions would lead to termination. However, how the guy defended himself stating that he was trying as hard as possible not to bang her is disgusting.

Doing it to preserve his marriage? Yeah right. This little event shows how much he values his marriage.

There is no excuse for rape. The guys, if they did it, were wrong in doing so. The courts will figure out if they did it, and what to do with them afterwards.

What happened to her is unacceptable.

Also on an unrelated note the girl should not have been that drunk because you can die from alcohol poisoning. Drinking that much was a stupid action.
Sebster said it best:

 sebster wrote:
if you're going to drink yourself to oblivion, make sure there are people around that you know and trust who are remaining at least somewhat sober, so they can look out for you if there's trouble.

Unrelated to my previous writings in this post:

 Da Boss wrote:
You're being an insensitive donkey-cave.

And that is a crime where you live?

 dogma wrote:
You claimed that the victim of a rape made a "dumbass decision" and that, where you come from, people that do "dumbass things" are called "stupid". Where I come from that collection of ideas entails passing blame on to the victim of the rape, by way of calling said victim's decisions "dumbass" and said victim "stupid". In this particular instance those decisions involve getting drunk, which is what you are immediately blaming this particular victim for..

She did a stupid thing. I AM blaming her for not just getting drunk, but getting blackout drunk with a group of people she may not have known all of. That's stupid. Her doing that makes her stupid. This I am saying.

Her stupid actions increased her chances of being assaulted. Those stupid boys did something stupid, and amoral, and criminal. They are entirely to blame for putting their penis in her without her consent. Could she have possibly prevented this if she didn't do something stupid? Maybe.

 dogma wrote:

 Necroshea wrote:

This again. Please cite where I said that. What's odd though is I remember somebody else saying that but it's not coming up, not even them asking it. Odd.

Here.

 Necroshea wrote:
Personally I think that the girl just dressed like a skank and the doctor liked it. However after hearing about it the doctors wife made some threats and got him to fire her.


I still think this is totally wrong. If a worker is dressing inappropriately then there needs to be a notice or warning, and continues infractions would lead to termination. However, how the guy defended himself stating that he was trying as hard as possible not to bang her is disgusting.

Doing it to preserve his marriage? Yeah right. This little event shows how much he values his marriage.

Awww, you remember me! You little scamp, you're not stalking me are you?

Nice try, Necroshea.

Weak attempts at deflection can't save you now.

Which is to say, of course, that remembering someone saying something ridiculous in another thread =/= stalking. Particularly when they were vaguely related subjects.

Mattman154 wrote:
Hm, that's fair. Although I didn't feel like my actions were to try and minimize sympathy, I can see people reading it like that. Thanks for the response!

Not a problem, and thanks for your reply.

I think part of the reason people read your posts as they did, by the way, is because it hasn't been just you posting about the girl's behaviour, but necroshea as well. His posts have been a lot more inflamatory.

 Monster Rain wrote:
Nice try, Necroshea.

Weak attempts at deflection can't save you now.

Oh noooooo I've been undone! Whatever shall I do now?

True, I made a guess at what happened in that situation. In this situation, I'm remaining neutral. Perhaps I'm doing it to spite you lot and your frothing tantrums. Matters not. I'm being neutral about this situation and there's not a damn thing ya'll can do about it! Suck on that!

Mattman154 wrote:
Edit: As far as this "blame the victim" stuff, is that always indecent? Take a look at this article: http://www.injurytriallawyer.com/blog/pedestrian-hit-by-metro-bus-in-downtown-seattle.cfm

Do you think it's wrong of me to blame the person hit by the bus for being hit by the bus? Please note I'm not trying to compare this to the rape case. Just don't feel like it deserves it's own thread.

There is a thing called partial liability in civil cases. It means that the victim can be held partially responsible for their injuries. So, in the above case for instance (and bare in mind I know nothing of the case and am just making stuff up for an example) it might be held that the bus driver's speeding and eating lunch while driving was negligent, but the pedestrian stepping out on the red light was even more negligent, and so of the say, $100,000 in injuries suffered by the plaintiff, they'll hold the bus driver only 30% responsible, and award $30,000.

That same concept doesn't exist in criminal trials. It doesn't matter if I put my password on a sticky note next to my computer, you still accessed my bank account and stole my money. It doesn't matter if I got drunk and passed out, you still raped me.

 sebster wrote:
That same concept doesn't exist in criminal trials. It doesn't matter if I put my password on a sticky note next to my computer, you still accessed my bank account and stole my money. It doesn't matter if I got drunk and passed out, you still raped me.

Sure it doesn't matter to criminal trials, but you're still stupid for doing it.

 Necroshea wrote:
If being an ass means assessing both parties and finding legitimately issues with their choice of activities, then I'll be an ass all day err day, and happily.

"This guy cut the victim's head off with a rusty blade, but the victim was wearing white shoes after Labor Day."

Seriously though, some people take a look at things from a neutral point of view. Being overly sympathetic or vindictive to either party obscures your view from the greater picture,

One party got too drunk at a party. The other party committed rape.

I am actually beginning to see that you can't actually see the difference in these things, and that is incredible.


Honestly, the people you meet on the internet, they beggar belief.