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Well its your own fault for being an idiot and play an OP list, really.

a game shouldn't have horribly broken lists and rules anyways, unless the company doesn't give two craps about its game just selling its overpriced models to children

 Bobthehero wrote:
Well its your own fault for being an idiot and play an OP list, really.

I'm going to assume this is sarcasm for the protection of my own sanity.

I used to run Jaws.. and as many thunderhammers i could cram in and as many Missle launchers I could carry.. Lets just say I won most games.. Not with skill but because Space wolfs are so unbalanced its not even funny....

He could just not run them, and then poof, he doesn't win most of his games and needs to think his strategy up, just because something is broken doesn't mean you have to constantly use it.

 Bobthehero wrote:

I used to run Jaws.. and as many thunderhammers i could cram in and as many Missle launchers I could carry.. Lets just say I won most games.. Not with skill but because Space wolfs are so unbalanced its not even funny....

He could just not run them, and then poof, he doesn't win most of his games and needs to think his strategy up, just because something is broken doesn't mean you have to constantly use it.

And I think this post aptly demonstrates the problem with GW games: Instead of actually trying to balance their games, they write horrid rules and then the playerbase gets blamed when they use them.

Meh, I am enjoying my games, you go enjoy yours, would be nice if half the people here didn't bash on the game I enjoy, but, ain't much I can for that.

 Mad4Minis wrote:

 agustin wrote:
The major difference between PP and GW is not in the cost per model, but in the experience upon first contact with their products. If you get a battlebox (or better yet, half the contents of the two player starter) you have a real experience of their game right off the bat.

If you get a GW starter you get a starter experience and not a viable army once you get your army book/codex. Playing Island of Blood or Dark Vengeance as a stand alone game is fine, but the transition to full 40k or WFB just isn't there. You get a subset of the full game experience and need a lot more money to start playing the full game.

It's worse yet if you get GW's equivalent of a battlebox-- the battleforce and battallion boxes. Very few of these are legal armies, they don't have rules and they represent vastly different point levels so they can't really be played directly against eachother as starters. Oh, an you'll need an incredibly expensive rulebook and then also a codex (which are all shifting towards expensive hard cover) just to have the rules.

Then after your initial experience is done with PP and you want to expand to the next logical army size (15 points) you'll need a single unit or a solo or two or maybe a light jack/beast. Getting another jack or unit box after that and you're getting into the 25 point range. At that point you can start buying other warcasters for you faction and drastically change up you play experience.

In comparison, 40k and WFB require much, much larger purchases to get to what could be considered the next logical points size. The difference in cost between going with PP's games and GW's starts to become shocking at this point.

That right there is a large portion of what made my friend and I go with Warmachine. We also really like the flexibility of the game in general. Just changing a caster or other unit can greatly change the way an army works. Sure some combos work better than others, but the effectiveness is also highly based on the player. In 40k theres very few effective combos for each army. We wont even get into the total lack of balance in 40k.

Lets not forget that PP also like us older players .. Me and my friends have now spent Alot of money getting like 80% of the Factions we play regulary.. It's not cheaper then GW.. But as pointed out you can have alot of fun playing smaller games, becuase the rules are so much better made... This means you dont have to pick up a large battle force if you dont want to.. I'm old and have money to burn, so the cost of miniatures do not bother me... What bothers me though is not getting value for my money.. And you dont get any with GW miniatures, because the game rules are so unbalanced. A lower miniature count makes painting them more fun... painting 100 skaven slaves is not FUN, even when I use my airbrush trust me...

 Bobthehero wrote:
Meh, I am enjoying my games, you go enjoy yours, would be nice if half the people here didn't bash on the game I enjoy, but, ain't much I can for that.

I do play GW games. I highly dislike the fact that the moment I pull out my Tzeentch/Khorne WoC eyes begin to roll, and I don't precisely want to buy a new army just because GW in their infinite wisdom decided that mine will be broken this edition.

 Bobthehero wrote:

I used to run Jaws.. and as many thunderhammers i could cram in and as many Missle launchers I could carry.. Lets just say I won most games.. Not with skill but because Space wolfs are so unbalanced its not even funny....

He could just not run them, and then poof, he doesn't win most of his games and needs to think his strategy up, just because something is broken doesn't mean you have to constantly use it.

But the fun Factor for me is Winning.. So I cheese as much as I can.. That means using the most OP forge world stuff that I can find... And all the Most OP list I can make. I have stated this before I have found that most of my fellow Warmachine/hordes players are like me. OUR fun do not come from placing Miniatures that look cool and have cool lore on the table. The fun comes when we outsmart or opponent and win with skill. In Warmachine I cheese and make the best list I can.. but compared to 40k/WHFB, my oppnent can counter me with uppdated rules no mather what faction he playes. So instead of feeling like Crap, I'm playing broken wood elfs, or TAU or some other outdated army... he can adapt and come back and give me a fight, and maybe beat me...This is what makes Warmachine/hordes fun for the competitive crowed that I belong to. And that is the main reason we Quit GWs unbalanced games....



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 Bobthehero wrote:
Meh, I am enjoying my games, you go enjoy yours, would be nice if half the people here didn't bash on the game I enjoy, but, ain't much I can for that.

We will do that just as long as you understand that your game is broken, and have alot of issues, that makes it just a ROFL for serious players... It requires no skillz when you can pre-mesure all your shooting.. dont have to turn your models in the right direction(gw modells rules have no facing). When some codexes are on AUTO win unless Edited MT11
As long as we are clear on this FACT.. you can play what you want. I would not play it but hey.. maybe you like big painted armies? that look cool? who knows... as I said i play games to win, that is what got me into playing games in the first place.. Started with playing Poker and backgammon for cash in school, on the breaks, for cash.. made lots of extra cash during my highschool years hehe.. then I got into chess.. and finaly I picked up Table-top wargaming. For me Its about the WIN/the Kill.. that is the thrill... And I enjoy face stomping people... Strike Hard, strike Fast, NO mercy.. sweep the leg anything that gets me the victory...

For me Its about the WIN/the Kill.. that is the thrill... And I enjoy face stomping people... Strike Hard, strike Fast, NO mercy.. sweep the leg anything that gets me the victory...

You have my sympathies.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Well its your own fault for being an idiot and play an OP list, really.

Says the person playing DKOK. Unless you started playing after the recent (and needed) update to Breaching Drills...which is unlikely.

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
a game shouldn't have horribly broken lists and rules anyways, unless the company doesn't give two craps about its game just selling its overpriced models to children

Quoted for the truth.. and that was my point... If there are broken rules.. people will use them.. Better not to have broken rules at all. Makes things alot more fun for everyone playing the game...


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 azreal13 wrote:

For me Its about the WIN/the Kill.. that is the thrill... And I enjoy face stomping people... Strike Hard, strike Fast, NO mercy.. sweep the leg anything that gets me the victory...

You have my sympathies.

We cant all love Unicorns and believe that there is gold at the end of the Rainbow..

COBRA KAI forever.. Mercy is for the Weak!!!!

I learned to be the ultimate ninja from Ninja Master Gordon... the Golden Ninja Empire will be forever glorious!

For me Its about the WIN/the Kill.. that is the thrill... And I enjoy face stomping people... Strike Hard, strike Fast, NO mercy.. sweep the leg anything that gets me the victory...

 azreal13 wrote:

You have my sympathies.

We cant all love Unicorns and believe that there is gold at the end of the Rainbow..

No. But we can all try and lead balanced lives and not over invest our sense of well being into playing with toy soldiers.

I know others will disagree, but this sort of hyper competitiveness in a pastime where 90%+ of the time there is absolutely nothing riding on the result is a real red button issue for me

Enjoy playing a game as a way of spending time with your friends or getting to know someone new, leave this sort of pointless nonsense at the door.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Yes.

I've personally passed on the chaos codex, dinobot swoop, and now the DA Chbi hawks over price. The DA fliers would have to almost half what it is for me to buy.

Ah, my favorite Vice-Principal...

I'm basically in the same boat. I haven't bought a new release since the Necrons (and I balked at a few of those). I've been building my CSM force from mostly trading stuff I had but wasn't using. I skipped the recent CSM release (except for some Warp Talons bits) as it was too cartoony, and way too overpriced.

Add the price issue to DreamForge's amazing work at reaspnable prices, and my general poorness, and yes, GW has basically priced me out. I'm not cryin, though, but I do wish more DreamForge stuff was available. NEED MOAR LEVIATHANS

-C6

 azreal13 wrote:
Enjoy playing a game as a way of spending time with your friends or getting to know someone new, leave this sort of pointless nonsense at the door.

Implies you can't have fun while trying to win.

 Laughing Man wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Enjoy playing a game as a way of spending time with your friends or getting to know someone new, leave this sort of pointless nonsense at the door.

Implies you can't have fun while trying to win.

No it doesn't! But there's a right way and a wrong way, and playing to ROFLStomp your friends isn't the right way.

It is possible to play to win without going overboard. To me it's also disrespectful to your opponent's efforts to also have fun to play a cheese list, unless that's what they're expecting of course.

 azreal13 wrote:
I know others will disagree, but this sort of hyper competitiveness in a pastime where 90%+ of the time there is absolutely nothing riding on the result is a real red button issue for me

We all die in the end, so really there's nothing riding on any result ever, coz, ya know, you'll be in the ground at the end of it all and give it a few years and no one will remember But maybe you should ask yourself why it's a red button issue for you

Personally, I'd never describe myself as hyper competitive, but competitiveness is definitely a massive driver for myself. I can safely say I did well in school not because I was taking some morale high road of trying to be the best I could be, it was because I was quietly trying to do better than all my friends Without competition I have very little motivation to do anything much and will sit in my room staring at the wall for long periods of time.

In the context of wargaming, it is completely natural for me to just do the maths in my head and optimise an army list, it's the way my brain works and I'm sure it's true of many other people as well. I don't go to the point of collecting specific armies just to win, but within the army I am playing I will naturally tend to optimise it.

 Che-Vito wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Well its your own fault for being an idiot and play an OP list, really.

Says the person playing DKOK. Unless you started playing after the recent (and needed) update to Breaching Drills...which is unlikely.

Oh hey nice personal attack, only ever had one drill in my army, due to budget limitation at the time, and yes, I use the most updated rules I have, so, no more str 10 ap 1 melta large blast for me, and the other gak too.

Oh, I totally get why it's a red button issue for me, but there really isn't a way I can express it on here without getting flamed to death by those who disagree or have a nerve touched.

Suffice to say I've enough bad stuff happen to me in life that perhaps my perspective is a little different to lads in their teens/early twenties, which is generally where the competitive players are concentrated in my experience. I've done the whole competitive thing, mainly with CCGs, I've just reached the point in my life where I feel that there are more important things.

 azreal13 wrote:

For me Its about the WIN/the Kill.. that is the thrill... And I enjoy face stomping people... Strike Hard, strike Fast, NO mercy.. sweep the leg anything that gets me the victory...

 azreal13 wrote:

You have my sympathies.

We cant all love Unicorns and believe that there is gold at the end of the Rainbow..

No. But we can all try and lead balanced lives and not over invest our sense of well being into playing with toy soldiers.

I know others will disagree, but this sort of hyper competitiveness in a pastime where 90%+ of the time there is absolutely nothing riding on the result is a real red button issue for me

Enjoy playing a game as a way of spending time with your friends or getting to know someone new, leave this sort of pointless nonsense at the door.

Dude did you even read what I wrote? For you there is nothing riding on the result. But just because that is true for you does that automaticly make it true for the rest of us? I know you are trying to make some Moral point here but you, come off as kinda ignorant to be honest.
For example we are about 15 people in my gaming club ( we are all highly competetive people). We have a big Whiteboard on the wall with all our Wins/losses and a % count to show our win procent ratio (mine is about 80% right now). Our fun is to make cheesy lists, find weaknesses in each others lists.. so that we all become better players. Do we help out the people at the bottom, to make them better? hell yes! But we mark our victories. We play Steamroller On timed turns using Chess clocks(death timer). I know people that have other competative hobbys, and guess what they care if they win ore lose even if they do not play on a professional level. I also play disc golf.. and guess what we are kinda competetive there also. I used to train alot of sports when I was younger and I sure did care if We won ore lost. I also play boardgames for real money.. like poker and backgammon.... If I play against you and you dont care if you win ore lose, the game becomes pointless for me. I hate passive agressive players that think like this. I personaly think its some sort of defence mechanism they use because they just cant take losing for real. So they say... it dosen't mather, but deep down they really care....And they feel so bad when they lose and someone laughs in their face, they do anything to stay away from such situations...

My point is if you want to be a carebear that is okey, but dont think for a second that all of us are like you. Or think that your "high road" is the right road. You say its nonsense.. I counter with that if you and your friends cant handle competetive gameplay dont do it. But dont call competetive gameplay Nonsense because you really are in the minority in the world. There are alot of people who play in diffrent leagues in diffrent sports/games/martial arts etc that care if they win ore lose even if its just their pride riding on the result...

Making assumptions about others and their gaming like you did boarders on prejudice. And thinking you have a "moral highground" sends up red flags for me. You sound like you "know" how these games should be played, and people who play them diffrenlty should conform to your thinking? As I said before, for us its about wining in a game, this game can be anything, Out on the discgolf course.. Racing gocarts, playing paintball or playing soccer. playing EvE online, League of legends or world of tanks. For me and my friends its the same, do you understand this? It dosent mather what we are up to as a group.. we all play to win.. always... That is what we think is fun... It might not be what you personaly think is fun, because you are a carebear, but that does not change that fact that we think that it is....

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Che-Vito wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Well its your own fault for being an idiot and play an OP list, really.

Says the person playing DKOK. Unless you started playing after the recent (and needed) update to Breaching Drills...which is unlikely.

Oh hey nice personal attack, only ever had one drill in my army, due to budget limitation at the time, and yes, I use the most updated rules I have, so, no more str 10 ap 1 melta large blast for me, and the other gak too.

Yes, very personal, considering that way you've addressed other posters. DKOK prior to the update were underpriced, whether it was running 1 Drill or twenty.
Which is why I found your comment so amusing. Someone playing an underpriced army, posting passive-aggressive comments about those who comment on their army being overpriced.

It's classic.

 azreal13 wrote:

 Laughing Man wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Enjoy playing a game as a way of spending time with your friends or getting to know someone new, leave this sort of pointless nonsense at the door.

Implies you can't have fun while trying to win.

No it doesn't! But there's a right way and a wrong way, and playing to ROFLStomp your friends isn't the right way.

It is possible to play to win without going overboard. To me it's also disrespectful to your opponent's efforts to also have fun to play a cheese list, unless that's what they're expecting of course.

It depends on your friends.. If I dont give it 100% and try and Stomped them in the ground, my friends get upset. And tells the person doing it to stop Pulling punches. It all depends on who you are playing against and what makes the game fun for them. If the general consensus is, we play Hardcore and everyone is in 100% agreement then ROFLStomping your friends is the right way . I mean I get mad as hell when I lose.. But if I dident my friends victory would not be as sweet.. do you get this? if I just brush it away and say.. Hey I dont care if I win ore lose.. I'm Dissrespecting his effort... and that to me is a much greater insult...

And for the record most of us are over the age of 30, closer to 40 hehe... we are old and we are mean.. are boddies cant handle highpower contact sports anymore so we have moved over to less dangrous activites...that wont send anyone to hospital... But even if our beards are getting gray or fighting spirit remains Unbent and Unbroken...

Alright, Dakka's a bit of a mess for me right now.

Waht I meant is: I am also running Grenadiers in mass, please tell tell me these guys are underpriced...

Dude, Nucflash, take it down a notch! We're only talking about toy soldiers!

Nucflash wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

For me Its about the WIN/the Kill.. that is the thrill... And I enjoy face stomping people... Strike Hard, strike Fast, NO mercy.. sweep the leg anything that gets me the victory...

 azreal13 wrote:

You have my sympathies.

We cant all love Unicorns and believe that there is gold at the end of the Rainbow..

No. But we can all try and lead balanced lives and not over invest our sense of well being into playing with toy soldiers.

I know others will disagree, but this sort of hyper competitiveness in a pastime where 90%+ of the time there is absolutely nothing riding on the result is a real red button issue for me

Enjoy playing a game as a way of spending time with your friends or getting to know someone new, leave this sort of pointless nonsense at the door.

A bunch of stuff that is slightly offensive and shows that my comments have likely touched a nerve.

Carebear? Lol

When I was younger I would probably have taken offense at that.

I'm going to hazard a guess that you're younger than me, maybe late teens, early twenties?

You care that you win, I understand, I was you once. I will always try to win, its not in my nature to do otherwise. But you don't appear to understand that chalking your results up on a massive whiteboard still doesn't make it important. Play for a weeks worth of food, or your rent for a month, then we can talk about the result being important.


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Oh, and what the hell is disc golf? Is that like with frisbees or something.

You kids!

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
Dude, Nucflash, take it down a notch! We're only talking about toy soldiers!

Haha... man dont stop my forum fight... I'm having lots of fun right now.. and I had to make my Point across that some people like to play games competitively. Others migth not, but saying that if you want to play Competitively you are doing it wrong does'nt sit well with me... So I had to push it a bit to get my point across..

Not all players that like competative gamplay are in their 20s.. Not all gaming Clubs are carebears who do group huggs before beginning a gaming session with Mammas and the pappas "You got to make your own kind of music" playing in the background..

We approche games more like thishttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSoRK0Oel28 Azreal13 and his buddies out having fun.. when suddenly........

Nucflash, you seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that I give a monkeys.

By continuing to try and taunt me you are in danger of violating rule 1, please try and attack my point and not me.

Frankly, you accuse me of being ignorant, but by continuing to post in this manner you're coming across as massively immature, unless you are actually twelve and full of Red Bull

 azreal13 wrote:

 Laughing Man wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Enjoy playing a game as a way of spending time with your friends or getting to know someone new, leave this sort of pointless nonsense at the door.

Implies you can't have fun while trying to win.

No it doesn't! But there's a right way and a wrong way, and playing to ROFLStomp your friends isn't the right way.

It is possible to play to win without going overboard. To me it's also disrespectful to your opponent's efforts to also have fun to play a cheese list, unless that's what they're expecting of course.

This is the perfect illustration of what is wrong with GW games: GW, having decided they don't care about making a balanced game, attempts to instill in the player base that people that notice that the emperor has no clothes (and play lists that are entirely legal) should be controlled by being called names.

It is the job of the game company to provide a balanced set of rules so as many play styles as possible can be accommodated.

Magic: the Gathering and Warmachine/Hordes accomplish this as well as anyone in their respective fields. GW, by contrast, simply doesn't give a crap.

This is why I so love PP's famous "page 5" rules, which culminate in "play like you have a pair". Because we see the alternative above: emotional blackmail. Oh, you brought a hard list? Well, you're just a bad person. What's especially amusing is how the adherents of this position think they are the mature ones.

 Buzzsaw wrote:


Magic: the Gathering and Warmachine/Hordes accomplish this as well as anyone in their respective fields. GW, by contrast, simply doesn't give a crap.

This is why I so love PP's famous "page 5" rules, which culminate in "play like you have a pair". Because we see the alternative above: emotional blackmail. Oh, you brought a hard list? Well, you're just a bad person. What's especially amusing is how the adherents of this position think they are the mature ones.

I respectfully disagree. It''s nothing to do with game balance, necessarily, although it can obviously be a factor, but often attitude.

Perhaps I can better explain myself with what I mean by competitive. There are players that play to win, I have no issue with them, the 'competitive' player is, to me, the one who rules lawyers his opponent into submission, and who plays his game with no concern for making the experience fun for his opponent, or even for him. He has no concern with exploring the game, or trying new things, he simply wants the most efficient thing and the most of it he can get.

Now, in a competitive environment like a tournament, then these guys have a place, but not in the slightly less confrontational nature of the local club or FLGS.

I quit Magic when one of my friends dropped a tourney deck on me, a netlist clone of a blue-white denial deck, many years ago. I sat there for 20 mins and did almost nothing but draw cards and take small hits from his tiny creatures. It was tedious and boring. I didn't ragequit, I simply decided that I didn't want to play a game where that sort of thing could happen and moved onto other things. Never once regretted it.