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Samurai_Eduh wrote:
Frankly, I hope GW does price all of the whiners/kids out of the hobby. The whole warhammer scene was much more fun and laid back before its popularity exploded with the internet anyway. Now its nothing but WAAC tournament gamers everytime I go into the shop to play. No one wants to play the game for the game's sake anymore, they just want to min/max the latest hot off the press army.

I don't think that GW products are that expensive for the value you get anyway, and I'm not talking about value as in the amount of product that you get on the sprue. I'm talking about the value of hours of game time with your friends, exploring one of the greatest sci-fi universes out there.

Let's put it this way, say GW goes off the deep end and starts charging $100 for a squad. At my pay rate, thats only two hours of work to be able to buy it, no big deal. How many hours will that unit keep me entertained and how much value will I get out of it? A lot more than $100 worth thats for sure.

yeah its fine and well if you make a lot of money or if its your only hobby but... well according to many, it is my fault if I don't have enough or have another hobby
GW is the hobby after all

Samurai_Eduh wrote:
Frankly, I hope GW does price all of the whiners/kids out of the hobby.

Samurai_Eduh wrote:
Let's put it this way, say GW goes off the deep end and starts charging $100 for a squad. At my pay rate, thats only two hours of work to be able to buy it, no big deal. How many hours will that unit keep me entertained and how much value will I get out of it? A lot more than $100 worth thats for sure.

Let them eat cake!

Samurai_Eduh wrote:
Frankly, I hope GW does price all of the whiners/kids out of the hobby. The whole warhammer scene was much more fun and laid back before its popularity exploded with the internet anyway. Now its nothing but WAAC tournament gamers everytime I go into the shop to play. No one wants to play the game for the game's sake anymore, they just want to min/max the latest hot off the press army.

I don't think that GW products are that expensive for the value you get anyway, and I'm not talking about value as in the amount of product that you get on the sprue. I'm talking about the value of hours of game time with your friends, exploring one of the greatest sci-fi universes out there.

Let's put it this way, say GW goes off the deep end and starts charging $100 for a squad. At my pay rate, thats only two hours of work to be able to buy it, no big deal. How many hours will that unit keep me entertained and how much value will I get out of it? A lot more than $100 worth thats for sure.

Man, if you want a hobby only people who earn $50 an hour can afford, go play polo or some such. I understand your point about wanting people to play with who just play for the games sake, but coming off as you do, you just sound condescending toward those who don't earn as much as you do (i.e. the majority of people).

 Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:

Samurai_Eduh wrote:
Frankly, I hope GW does price all of the whiners/kids out of the hobby.

Samurai_Eduh wrote:
Let's put it this way, say GW goes off the deep end and starts charging $100 for a squad. At my pay rate, thats only two hours of work to be able to buy it, no big deal. How many hours will that unit keep me entertained and how much value will I get out of it? A lot more than $100 worth thats for sure.

Let them eat cake!

The Monocled Cephalopod has spoken!

+1 good sir.

 cincydooley wrote:


I enjoy the background that they've worked very hard to engage the public in. No other miniature game has a universe even remotely as expansive as the WHFB or 40k universes. Plus I already have armies and the cost for me to play each new edition has been minimal. They design rules to have fun. I appreciate that I don't need to know every combo. I enjoy having a few cocktails with friends and if there's a rule we're unclear on, just going with the common sense result. I'm still playing Space Wolves and Blood Angels plenty competetively. I had no reason to pick up Dark Angels beyond, "oh, those Dark Vengence models are pretty."

sorry - had to pitch in here.

I dont think GW design rules to have fun. they design rules as part game, as pretty much an afterthought, with the aim of selling miniatures. i would like to expand this point. Can you say you had fun because the rules were designed as such? i dont. to be fair, when i play 40k, i dont have fun because they designed the rules a certain way. i have fun because i'm having a good time with my mates, blowing stuff up and having a beer. I have fun, in spite of the rules, not because of them. as do most others.

designing a game with "fun" in mind isnt exclusive to GW (and bear in mind, i know this isnt the thrust of your argument). i can (and have) play a game of warmachine perfectly casually and for "fun" just as i can with my tau versus my mates second ed space wolf army with a bashed up 40k for beginners style rules set mixing fourth, fifth and sixth ed rules.

 cincydooley wrote:


To this I say, "so?" If that's what they choose to make it, then so be it. No one is forcing your hand to buy it. And with the internet and youtube, there are an absolute glut of tutorials out there. It would be cool if GW included new rules in the magazine from time to time, which they have, but with the backlash about not being able to find certain issues after they've gone OOP, I can understand their hesitance to do so anymore.

i think the issue is when you compare it to the likes of PP's no quarter, which shows it up remarkably. here's the difference. i want to buy No quarter. i couldnt care less about White Dwarf. and personally, i think its a shame. Not that i actually blame GW. they have their own priiorities and policies as a company, and its simply not in line with mine. i also think GW cannot win. look at the "GW should have foums" argument. last time they did, they were awful and an abdsolute sham. So they dont do it, and i cant really blame them. there are probably thoughts behind what white dwarf is too, but because its GW, people are quite happy to go sniping, regardless.

 cincydooley wrote:


Yes they do. I also paid more for my Cygnar Stormwall than I've ever paid for a non Forge World GW model. So there's that. My gas was under $3 a gallon about a month ago. It's nearly $4 now. I drive less to compensate for my displeasure with this.

have to agree here. price isnt a valid argument for me. Yes its cheaper to start warmachine than 40k, and cheaper still to start infinity. but at my last count, i'd spent over £1500 on warmachine stuff over the last few years!

 cincydooley wrote:

Seriously dude its not FUN anymore, this company needs to be stoped and the only people who can do it is US the customers.. Stop buying their products, You have a moral responsibility to do so.

I have no moral responsibility whatsover. I have a moral responsibility to stop a woman from being raped. I have a moral responsibility to stop a child from being abused. I have no moral responsibility to stop a business from trying to sell their product.

And as it stands, I still have a lot of fun with 40k. In April at Adepticon, another 3000 people will also be having fun playing a multitude of wargames, the largest of which will be 40k.

Deadnight wrote:
[sorry - had to pitch in here.

I dont think GW design rules to have fun. they design rules as part game, as pretty much an afterthought, with the aim of selling miniatures. i would like to expand this point. Can you say you had fun because the rules were designed as such? i dont. to be fair, when i play 40k, i dont have fun because they designed the rules a certain way. i have fun because i'm having a good time with my mates, blowing stuff up and having a beer. I have fun, in spite of the rules, not because of them. as do most others.

designing a game with "fun" in mind isnt exclusive to GW (and bear in mind, i know this isnt the thrust of your argument). i can (and have) play a game of warmachine perfectly casually and for "fun" just as i can with my tau versus my mates second ed space wolf army with a bashed up 40k for beginners style rules set mixing fourth, fifth and sixth ed rules.

I see where you're coming from here, and I think you're right. I used the wrong phrase. Let's replace "fun" with "casual." Fun is dictated by the situation and who you're playing with, not the game itself.

I tend to have more fun playing 40k simply because I don't have to think as much, and when I'm drinking, this is a benefit

I get REALLY frustrated with warmachine, despite really enjoying that universe and most of the models, because I simply dont have the time to memorize all of the combos and tricks of each faction. If I play against my friends, I typically know their armies, but I've been in the situation enough before where I lost not due to poor generalship, but because a combo occured that I didn't realize was possible. Couple that with the fact that, in the last league I played in, two dudes had their stamp booklets full in 2 days, and I realized I just dont have the time required to play Warmachine competitively. As such, I'll play it with friends, and thats about it. And even then we probably don't get the most out of our games. The learning curve for Warmachine is a ton higher, and like I said, I don't have the time nor the inclination to learn everything about every faction. However, if someone tells me that dark eldar super spinny blaster is melta, I know what that means. Hell, the Black 13th don't even have the same rules for all of their magelock pistols.

I think Infinity is probably the "right" middle ground for me. Better rules with less combos/MtG elements; sadly, it isn't played in my area pretty much at all.

As such, 40k gets my gaming time. It's easy to find a game and I don't have to be super competitive. Its not because I'm not competitive (I'm violently competetive) but not about a hobby activity that is supposed to be relaxing.

 cincydooley wrote:

Deadnight wrote:
[sorry - had to pitch in here.

I dont think GW design rules to have fun. they design rules as part game, as pretty much an afterthought, with the aim of selling miniatures. i would like to expand this point. Can you say you had fun because the rules were designed as such? i dont. to be fair, when i play 40k, i dont have fun because they designed the rules a certain way. i have fun because i'm having a good time with my mates, blowing stuff up and having a beer. I have fun, in spite of the rules, not because of them. as do most others.

designing a game with "fun" in mind isnt exclusive to GW (and bear in mind, i know this isnt the thrust of your argument). i can (and have) play a game of warmachine perfectly casually and for "fun" just as i can with my tau versus my mates second ed space wolf army with a bashed up 40k for beginners style rules set mixing fourth, fifth and sixth ed rules.

I see where you're coming from here, and I think you're right. I used the wrong phrase. Let's replace "fun" with "casual." Fun is dictated by the situation and who you're playing with, not the game itself.

I tend to have more fun playing 40k simply because I don't have to think as much, and when I'm drinking, this is a benefit

I get REALLY frustrated with warmachine, despite really enjoying that universe and most of the models, because I simply dont have the time to memorize all of the combos and tricks of each faction. If I play against my friends, I typically know their armies, but I've been in the situation enough before where I lost not due to poor generalship, but because a combo occured that I didn't realize was possible. Couple that with the fact that, in the last league I played in, two dudes had their stamp booklets full in 2 days, and I realized I just dont have the time required to play Warmachine competitively. As such, I'll play it with friends, and thats about it. And even then we probably don't get the most out of our games. The learning curve for Warmachine is a ton higher, and like I said, I don't have the time nor the inclination to learn everything about every faction. However, if someone tells me that dark eldar super spinny blaster is melta, I know what that means. Hell, the Black 13th don't even have the same rules for all of their magelock pistols.

I think Infinity is probably the "right" middle ground for me. Better rules with less combos/MtG elements; sadly, it isn't played in my area pretty much at all.

As such, 40k gets my gaming time. It's easy to find a game and I don't have to be super competitive. Its not because I'm not competitive (I'm violently competetive) but not about a hobby activity that is supposed to be relaxing.

The cards are all public information. While I wouldn't expect anyone to memorize everything, most of the stuff that will blow you out of the water is either threat range multipliers or things that bypass specific defensive abilities. If you don't have time to review their list ahead of time. Asking simple questions like "How many speed buffs do you have" or "What models do you have can cause damage rolls without making attacks" or insert "Do you have anything that can [Get around what you know your schtick is]" goes a long way. It's public information so your opponent really has no basis to deny you it.

Techically they're allowed to just kind of gesture at their cards and say "Figure it out" but that kind of attitude is rare, even competitively.

EDIT: This isn't to say anyone's choice of games or distribution of money/time is "Wrong". Simply trying to offer constructive advice on a game that I've often found helps a great deal for people voicing that same complaint about it.

Chongara wrote:

Techically they're allowed to just kind of gesture at their cards and say "Figure it out" but that kind of attitude is rare, even competitively.

EDIT: This isn't to say anyone's choice of games or distribution of money/time is "Wrong". Simply trying to offer constructive advice on a game that I've often found helps a great deal for people voicing that same complaint about it.

i think this is the problem. in our meta, when i tried to play league, this is what i was met with.

 cincydooley wrote:

Chongara wrote:

Techically they're allowed to just kind of gesture at their cards and say "Figure it out" but that kind of attitude is rare, even competitively.

EDIT: This isn't to say anyone's choice of games or distribution of money/time is "Wrong". Simply trying to offer constructive advice on a game that I've often found helps a great deal for people voicing that same complaint about it.

i think this is the problem. in our meta, when i tried to play league, this is what i was met with.

Sucks that's what you ran up against. It can make learning very hard if the meta is hostile to asking questions. I mean wouldn't expect anyone to go out of their way to tip their hand, but answering questions about basic stats and types of abilities available derived from public information should be common courtesy. Though I'll admit the difference between public/private information is perhaps a bit more opaque than it should be.

Chongara wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

Chongara wrote:

Techically they're allowed to just kind of gesture at their cards and say "Figure it out" but that kind of attitude is rare, even competitively.

EDIT: This isn't to say anyone's choice of games or distribution of money/time is "Wrong". Simply trying to offer constructive advice on a game that I've often found helps a great deal for people voicing that same complaint about it.

i think this is the problem. in our meta, when i tried to play league, this is what i was met with.

Sucks that's what you ran up against. It can make learning very hard if the meta is hostile to asking questions. I mean wouldn't expect anyone to go out of their way to tip their hand, but answering questions about basic stats and types of abilities available derived from public information should be common courtesy. Though I'll admit the difference between public/private information is perhaps a bit more opaque than it should be.

I wish it was isolated. That particular group takes Page 5 (minus the last rule) pretty seriously.

Fortunately a new group is starting up a league, so I should be able to put my tons of painted Cygnar to work.

 cincydooley wrote:

Chongara wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

Chongara wrote:

Techically they're allowed to just kind of gesture at their cards and say "Figure it out" but that kind of attitude is rare, even competitively.

EDIT: This isn't to say anyone's choice of games or distribution of money/time is "Wrong". Simply trying to offer constructive advice on a game that I've often found helps a great deal for people voicing that same complaint about it.

i think this is the problem. in our meta, when i tried to play league, this is what i was met with.

Sucks that's what you ran up against. It can make learning very hard if the meta is hostile to asking questions. I mean wouldn't expect anyone to go out of their way to tip their hand, but answering questions about basic stats and types of abilities available derived from public information should be common courtesy. Though I'll admit the difference between public/private information is perhaps a bit more opaque than it should be.

I wish it was isolated. That particular group takes Page 5 (minus the last rule) pretty seriously.

Fortunately a new group is starting up a league, so I should be able to put my tons of painted Cygnar to work.

Well, I don't recall anything about page 5 about "Make sure to leave your opponent in the dark about the game state". Good Luck. I think PP wrote page 5 to mostly mean "Do your best to step up your game, and don't assume something is unfair just because it beat you". Sounds like your meta may have some folks who don't realize the overly macho wording was meant to be tongue in cheek (a regrettable decision on PPs part imo).

Samurai_Eduh wrote:
I don't think that GW products are that expensive for the value you get anyway, and I'm not talking about value as in the amount of product that you get on the sprue. I'm talking about the value of hours of game time with your friends, exploring one of the greatest sci-fi universes out there.

Let's put it this way, say GW goes off the deep end and starts charging $100 for a squad. At my pay rate, thats only two hours of work to be able to buy it, no big deal. How many hours will that unit keep me entertained and how much value will I get out of it? A lot more than $100 worth thats for sure.

This argument is a complete fallacy. Personally, I quite like drawing and writing. Give me a pen/pencil and a bit of paper and I'll be able to amuse myself for months maybe years. Hell, I might even be able to produce something I can sell. But that does not mean a pencil is suddenly worth $100. Being creative, spending time with your friends, using your imagination... These things are free; they are not the property of GW, and you can't buy them there.

All you buy from GW are a few material things. And those material things are not good value. I know they are not good value because I know I could recast their models myself for a fraction of the price... If I really wanted to that is (I could probably get the bubbles out too). Of course it would infringe their copyright, but the legalities are beside the point: why is it a person on their own at home can produce <50 casts, and be able to sell them for cheaper than GW, who mass produce thousands of casts? Clearly GW are just price gauging. That is what annoys people. It is not the cost, it is the principle. They are taking something that costs very little, and they are selling it for an excessive amount. I say excessive because they appear to be pricing out a large portion of the people who want to buy their product. They are suffocating their own sales, consequently their own hobby, and the profits are not even being reinvested. They are being paid out as dividends to make rich people richer.

 cincydooley wrote:


I see where you're coming from here, and I think you're right. I used the wrong phrase. Let's replace "fun" with "casual." Fun is dictated by the situation and who you're playing with, not the game itself.

indeed.

 cincydooley wrote:

I tend to have more fun playing 40k simply because I don't have to think as much, and when I'm drinking, this is a benefit

casual and fun is all well and good, but personally, the sheer lack of balance kills the whole "casual and fun" thing dead in the water for me. Sure, you can get around it with social contracts and gentemen's agreements, but that annoys me no end as well, because in my mind it condones and justifies GW producing what amounts to a half finished product. i dont think these things should be required as fixes to play a game. you should just be able to "play the damned game" and not worry about it, and not have to allow this, or ban that or house rule the other thing, when in my mind those imbalances (and a lot of them are quite cynically deliberate) should have been sorted out in the first place.

and at the end of the day, drinking is its own benefit anyway!

 cincydooley wrote:

I get REALLY frustrated with warmachine, despite really enjoying that universe and most of the models, because I simply dont have the time to memorize all of the combos and tricks of each faction. If I play against my friends, I typically know their armies, but I've been in the situation enough before where I lost not due to poor generalship, but because a combo occured that I didn't realize was possible. Couple that with the fact that, in the last league I played in, two dudes had their stamp booklets full in 2 days, and I realized I just dont have the time required to play Warmachine competitively. As such, I'll play it with friends, and thats about it. And even then we probably don't get the most out of our games. The learning curve for Warmachine is a ton higher, and like I said, I don't have the time nor the inclination to learn everything about every faction. However, if someone tells me that dark eldar super spinny blaster is melta, I know what that means. Hell, the Black 13th don't even have the same rules for all of their magelock pistols.

Funny thing is, i actually enjoy those things. getting tabled by something i didnt see coming? Right, well i'll have you next time. and its as much generalship as anything else - how many guys lost battles and wars because he didnt know what those troops over there were capable of? Or what they could do with this tactic in combination with those guys over there? its as relevant as fighting really hard, if you ask me. Im quite the opposite of you. I actually like the learning curve of warmahordes. i like the combos. I like how every little thing can be built into a winning strategy, and by swapping x out with y, you get something completely different. i like seeing completely new. I like the "liquid meta" where nothing stands still, where the arms race is constantly evolving, ever in flux, the yearly changes to steamroller, the fact that i can never sit on my laurels because there is something else out there. then again, as i mentioned, i enjoy things that push me, and i enjoy pushing myself. Im doing a 6mile run tomorrow over a mountain, in preparation for a 10mile race over a mountain (at night) next month that i've done the last two years. Why/ because i can. because i enjoy it. Because to me, that is the essense of fun. Normally, i quite like to approach my wargaming in the same way.

 cincydooley wrote:

I think Infinity is probably the "right" middle ground for me. Better rules with less combos/MtG elements; sadly, it isn't played in my area pretty much at all.

then start something yourself, my good man. Its what i've done here. and i've gotten quite a few guys invested in one of the gaming clubs i go to, even if its to small warband scales. Just via demos and chat. And then i came across a bunch of other guys doing the same thing. thats how we grow things. Infinity is a great game. you should invest a bit (buy in costs are small), learn your quick start rules and get your mates involved. As much as i love warmahordes, i dont want to play it 24/7 and infinity scratches all kinds of itches warmahordes cant do. its a perfect game to waste half an hour with here or there before the big game. Plus, whats stopping you using it as part of a grander campaign?

 cincydooley wrote:

As such, 40k gets my gaming time. It's easy to find a game and I don't have to be super competitive. Its not because I'm not competitive (I'm violently competetive) but not about a hobby activity that is supposed to be relaxing.

*nods head* your mileage does vary. Running. i can do a 6mile jog to clear my head. and i can do a 6mile jog to push myself as far as i can go. same thing. different attitude. whilst you dont have to be super competitive with 40k, you can be, and its that lack of communication, and if that guy turms up playing his 40k against yours, someone is going to end up miserable. as much as "casual and fun" appeals, the lack of balance frustrates, and the frustration edges out everything that the 40k ideal tries to be - i honestly think, as a rule, people are more infatuated with this unreal idealistic vision of what 40k could be "some day" rather than what 40k actually is, in real life. at least with WM, i find i'm on the same page as my opponent. i can generally find everything there that you look for in 40k. then again, i suppose its good to have one place where you dont try and push things either - and i can appreciate that side of things with how you seem to play as well. my mate (proper gym rat) found a bunch of old second ed space wolves lying in his old home. got his stuff together, and got me out for a game of 40k (as i knew the rules) with his wolves versus my tau. No proper force org charts or anything, and no defined edition rules (mainly 4th +/- bits of the others) and it was a blast. couldnt kill his terminators to save my life! we were just cracking one liners, rolling dice and cheering our wee doods on, regardless of the outcome. no competitition at all. proper fun, and quite nice for a change. But i dont think its something i'd want out of my gaming as a general rule though.

Real quick, anyone that thinks you get a legitimate quality game out of fielding the base 1 HQ 2 troops is fooling themselves, and Kill-Team or Combat Patrol or whatever isn't 40k. People aren't buying 40k starters to play a half-thought out expansion/campaign system for 10 minute games. To pretend otherwise is to abstrusely ignore the obvious merely for the sake of continuing an argument.

Now as to quoting other hobby prices, If the question presented is ''How much cheaper are GW games compared to other similar tabletop wargaming experiences?" then obviously saying "Well I'm ok paying retail for a new set of ping golf clubs!" is irrelevant, but if the question is "Has sustaining a relationship with GW in such a way that I can still play a decent game with their products a reasonable amount of the times I want to require too much of a financial commitment relative to whatever else I could be doing with my time?" then it is very relevant. A playgroup (and this is what' actually matters here, a set of people that can consistently play legitimate games vs each other, and no, having garbage 837 point armies isn't a legitimate game) will pay considerably more than any of the estimates presented in this thread. The fact that GW products are being compared to things like paintballing and airsoft instead of (cost of any random game from the top 500 games on boardgamegeek divided by the number of players in the group pitching in to help pay for it) or (x amount of friday nights spent out doing any number of activities instead of wargaming) actually does an excellent job of showcasing just how expensive the game is.

There's also not alot of people mentioning how much 8th ed WHFB armies cost retail, presumably because they are so expensive that just about everyone's been effectively ''priced out'' - if I can't find enough players who could afford the game to provide a reasonable number of interesting games then it doesn't really matter if I'm willing to pay thousands of dollars for my army.

A cursory rebuild of my 2000 Skaven army (~200 slaves, 40 vermin, a couple characters, one on a rat ogre, ~9 jezzails, 30 skirmishers, and a HPA) with a single dice cube, 4 movement tray sets, and measuring tape is USD $973 at retail. That's not counting a 75$ sabol army transport (because the 100$ GW one can't actually carry the whole army in one case) and I probably left some stuff out because it's been awhile. That's not counting assembly materials or a core rulebook but the playgroup will share those.

This is to make an army that doesn't suck, so that you're not playing a game that sucks, because you're getting randomly tabled by someone who took stuff that didn't suck. So add 3 more actually worthwhile armies from factions I've picked at random:

High Elves (High elves are bad because GW balance is a joke but let's give it a go with some approximates) - Around 80 spearmen, 40 phoenix guard, 40 white lions, 3 bolt throwers, horse + foot wizards and stuff + book dice measuring tape - 592.65 (oh snap we can use AOBR to save money I'll get to that later)

Orks or Orcs or whatever - GW's site appears to have gone down. As a test, I have checked infinitythegame.com, that site works just fine. Maybe I'll buy something when I'm here. Anyway, we'll do giant hordes of infantry, boys and black orks and a bunch of goblins, with few boar riders. If it costs significantly less than 650 dollars to build I would be legitimately surprised.

Chaos - This army has a few cheap kits (like knights) but they usually suck. With a big horde of marauders and then some heavy foot and a few characters the army is probably going to clock in alot cheaper, maybe even 400-450 with everything.

So far we're at about USD $2665 for a group of friends to have fantasy models in a box and look at them while they hang out together. 4 Sabol transports brings it up to ~2965, assembly materials are shared, paint can be shared, and the small from AOBR saved us from having to buy one while probably saving around 60 dollars in models that didn't need to be purchased for the group, so $2905, add another hundred or so for rattlecan + glue + clearcoat + enough paints for a crappy paint job - close to three thousand bucks for some friends to play fantasy together.

If you're generous and spend 250$ per infinity army (for several armies this is equivalent to having hundreds of extra points to swap units around in fantasy/40k) and print the rules you've barely spend more than a fantasy player on a single army and realistically that fantasy army only has a very limited number of useful configurations it could be deployed in.

For what this fantasy group spent to get established (assuming free tables of course) you're looking at several times the cost of Infinity even though the models aren't cheaper.

You can do alot with 3 grand with your buddies - you can go drinking and rack up a 200$ tab for your table every Friday for a full year and still have enough money left over to buy each other several of the top BoardGameGeek games for when you're tired of spending 200$/night at the bar.

Funny, when I read this forum I got the feeling that everybody hate GW and what to see it die in the nine pits of hell and for PP rise above all and become the next One Ring who Rules them All...

But when I play at my FLGS, everybody like playing 40k and WHFB (and bloodball) and they all have a good time.

The rising price of GW didn't pull out people of the hobby, they buy there stuff more intelligently. A new book come out, people buy the book, adjust they army and keep going playing.

If they stop playing warhammer and goes to other game, they are not out of the hobby, they expending they hobby. Other companies are rising and have more choice.

When each company reach the same price, now they will put people out of the hobby. For now, we have more choice than ever.

hellpato wrote:
Funny, when I read this forum I got the feeling that everybody hate GW and what to see it die in the nine pits of hell and for PP rise above all and become the next One Ring who Rules them All...

That is actually the opposite of what most of us that would fit under the label 'GW hater' want.
We don't complain all the time because we think warhammer sucks and want it to be replaced by warmahores, we love warhammer and want to continue playing it and see the hobby grow. GWs buisness practices however are sucking the fun out of it.

We want the company to change, not die.

Real quick, anyone that thinks you get a legitimate quality game out of fielding the base 1 HQ 2 troops is fooling themselves, and Kill-Team or Combat Patrol or whatever isn't 40k. People aren't buying 40k starters to play a half-thought out expansion/campaign system for 10 minute games. To pretend otherwise is to abstrusely ignore the obvious merely for the sake of continuing an argument.

To me this part of your argument is partially flawed. As stated before my best and always filled tournament is a 500 point combat patrol. The reason why this tournament is so popular is so because I used the philosophy that was practiced by the GW staff (before 2005) of having themed tournaments, with cash prize support, that rivals the current and bigger events. People from all skill sets come in and have competitive fun. And the key word is fun.

Small games being played on 4x4 tables was a key selling point by the corporation at their corporate store before 2006. Customers started small then went to the GW Boot Camp which was you paid 50 bucks and had 6 weeks of training on how to paint and play your army and when you completed boot camp you received the small GW army transport case. Then they played Small games on 4x4 tables before being seduced (quickly mind you to some) into playing bigger point games. You even had Outrider support which went to schools and LFGS to teach the game to kids and adults. All played out on 4x4 games.

This business model worked until 2006 and it was changed due to the financial difficulties of that time to a more aggressive model of providing lees quality services (the removal of black gobbo, the closing of the forums, the less and less of a deal in doing this kind of boot camp, Painting carousels, remember that disaster of leaving all the paint supplies out freely to the children?). Everything that was considered non essential was removed. From 2006 to 2009 the business model changed to a more aggressive stance of selling models to Timmy 10 year olds. Originally models sales were more or less restricted to 12 years and older, then it was any breathing body that came into the store. Saw sells to 7 years old, with consent of course, many of times. GW sales pitch was Bigger games begin played on 4x6 tables and for 7 years concept of playing games on a 4x4 table in any serous manner became a faded memory.

Where do you think PP got the idea on playing on a 4x4 table. Straight influence from the games being played by GW at that time period.

From 2010 to current, the business model charged once more to what you see today. Incredibly aggressive on their continue revenue streaming process and the reason to me is on how it is becoming difficult to keep within their profit margins at a level to keep investors happy.

5 hedge funds and Kirby holds the majority of stock. As far as the rest, they have to tow the line.

The mindset of Corporate culture is what I dislike. They took a game that was a very good tactical game that sharpen the minds of youth into the crap that they are pushing out now at a price that most people can not get into.

It is what it is.

 jonolikespie wrote:
. GWs buisness practices however are sucking the fun out of it.

That something I have difficulty to understand. Is a game, enjoyed it. When you start looking how a company run is business and that removed the fun of a game. IMO, is time open the door have a life. Ok, I know is scary outside but is good the breath the fresh air of the street (koff koff,,, *&?*% cars)....

 Adam LongWalker wrote:


Where do you think PP got the idea on playing on a 4x4 table. Straight influence from the games being played by GW at that time period.

Just a quick point - most games use a 4x4 table. It has little to do with GW or what GW was doing, rather that that is a convenient dimension for a table that is readily available to everyone and has been since long before I began gaming in the early 1980s. Whether it is a folding card table, half a sheet of plywood or a portion of the family dinner table - it is much easier to find or make space for than larger tables.

hellpato wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
. GWs buisness practices however are sucking the fun out of it.

That something I have difficulty to understand. Is a game, enjoyed it. When you start looking how a company run is business and that removed the fun of a game. IMO, is time open the door have a life. Ok, I know is scary outside but is good the breath the fresh air of the street (koff koff,,, *&?*% cars)....

GW have seemingly made no attempt to balance 40k, I stopped enjoying it when I couldn't both play an army I liked theme wise and still have a chance of winning. I still love fantasy but I am unable to start a new army because A) the recent releases have been very underwhelming imo and B) the armies that appeal to me I can't justify the cost of. At the moment I feel like GW needs to either lower prices or release some better models for me to get excited about warhammer again.

There there are all the unethical (and occasionally downright illegal) things they do which does lower my opinion of the company and make me even less interested in their game, and saying I don't have a life doesn't change that fact.

MikeMcSomething wrote:
...snip...

A cursory rebuild of my 2000 Skaven army (~200 slaves, 40 vermin, a couple characters, one on a rat ogre, ~9 jezzails, 30 skirmishers, and a HPA) with a single dice cube, 4 movement tray sets, and measuring tape is USD $973 at retail. That's not counting a 75$ sabol army transport (because the 100$ GW one can't actually carry the whole army in one case) and I probably left some stuff out because it's been awhile. That's not counting assembly materials or a core rulebook but the playgroup will share those.

...snip again...

High Elves (High elves are bad because GW balance is a joke but let's give it a go with some approximates) - Around 80 spearmen, 40 phoenix guard, 40 white lions, 3 bolt throwers, horse + foot wizards and stuff + book dice measuring tape - 592.65 (oh snap we can use AOBR to save money I'll get to that later)

...snip once more...

And, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, you can even compare it to building a like number of models in historicals...

So for Skaven, I will substitute Civil War - 270 Infantry (for the slave, vermin, skirmishers) + 12 Cavalry (for the jezzails and rat ogre) and three mounted officers - all from Perry Miniatures = $202.75 retail add in a dice cube and tape measure you are at about $230 retail (versus the $973 above). That is not even mentioning that, on average, you can get the Civil War rules AND army lists for about $50 retail versus a new player needing to spend $125 for GW. So, assuming a new player getting into wargaming, they save about $818 on one army for historicals. In other words, what it cost to build one decent GW army, a historical player can build four armies comparable size armies.

This is why in my FLGS, I see more kids getting into historicals than GW. Coincidentally, I was there last night when a kid looked at Black Powder (there were two BP games going on last night, one AWI and one Napoleonics). The book is $48 for the rules (and you can't start an army just from the book). Then he also looked at the new WoC Army Book. When he sae that book was $50 (just for the army list) then realized he also needed the $75 rulebook - his comment to the owner was "this pricing is freakin' insane" and promptly put the GW stuff down. The proceeded to buy the Black Powder rules, two confederate infantry boxes and one confederate cavalry box.

As I noted before, forget the price of the miniatures for GW. New players don't seem to be able to get past the exorbitant price on the rules and army books versus other systems out there. So, in my neck of the woods at least, I see new wargamers picking up historicals over GW. In fact, in the last few weeks, the eight or nine times I have been in the store, there have been several new kids picking up wargaming. Not a single one went for GW because of the ridiculous pricing.

So yes, in my neck of the woods GW is definitely losing market share and it is mainly over their pricing. New players aren't adopting it because of the insane book pricing and veterans around here have abandoned it because of the model pricing. It seems the trend is accelerating and I'd be willing to bet that if GW does another 10-25% price increase this year, they are going to seal their fate even with the most die hard GW supporters.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 Adam LongWalker wrote:


Where do you think PP got the idea on playing on a 4x4 table. Straight influence from the games being played by GW at that time period.

Just a quick point - most games use a 4x4 table. It has little to do with GW or what GW was doing, rather that that is a convenient dimension for a table that is readily available to everyone and has been since long before I began gaming in the early 1980s. Whether it is a folding card table, half a sheet of plywood or a portion of the family dinner table - it is much easier to find or make space for than larger tables.

Most Warhammer, 40K, and Kings of War, that I have played has been on a 4X6 table - my preference is 4X8, but 4X6 is a lot easier - typically a dinner table and a sheet of plywood covered by a green blanket. (A special green blanket, mind - designed just for covering gaming tables... but a blanket.)

These days that blanket sees a lot more Kings of War than Warhammer, but still sees a lot of Mordheim - typically two games at a time.

Our group has no problem with the idea of running Warhammer Fantasy with Mantic figures, but none of us much like the current WHFB rules.

In our case 40K has faded away... which is not something that I think at all common. Most folks seem more likely to stick with Orks over Orcs. But a lot of us have been playing WFB since first, second, or third editions. KoW is doing a very nice job of sliding into that place.

A little Warmahordes does still happen, but not all that much. We like the bigger battles. (And a lot of us are in the SCA... beating each other up with rattan swords come summer.)

The Auld Grump

Does anyone have any photos of how the various Perry's fit with the GW empire stuff? I love diversity in my models and would be interested in trying them out.

This is on the Mantic board:

Samurai_Eduh wrote:
Frankly, I hope GW does price all of the whiners/kids out of the hobby. The whole warhammer scene was much more fun and laid back before its popularity exploded with the internet anyway. Now its nothing but WAAC tournament gamers everytime I go into the shop to play. No one wants to play the game for the game's sake anymore, they just want to min/max the latest hot off the press army.

I don't think that GW products are that expensive for the value you get anyway, and I'm not talking about value as in the amount of product that you get on the sprue. I'm talking about the value of hours of game time with your friends, exploring one of the greatest sci-fi universes out there.

Let's put it this way, say GW goes off the deep end and starts charging $100 for a squad. At my pay rate, thats only two hours of work to be able to buy it, no big deal. How many hours will that unit keep me entertained and how much value will I get out of it? A lot more than $100 worth thats for sure.

Go ahead, stroke it harder.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 Adam LongWalker wrote:


Where do you think PP got the idea on playing on a 4x4 table. Straight influence from the games being played by GW at that time period.

Just a quick point - most games use a 4x4 table. It has little to do with GW or what GW was doing, rather that that is a convenient dimension for a table that is readily available to everyone and has been since long before I began gaming in the early 1980s Whether it is a folding card table, half a sheet of plywood or a portion of the family dinner table - it is much easier to find or make space for than larger tables.

Friendly Counter point. I grew up on the beginnings of the popularity of miniatures during the 60's. Standard sizes were 4x8 Sandbox sculpting tables. These ideas on sizes came from older types of games as well as from model railroads. 4x4 tables came from the evolutionary part the gaming in general and that did start in the early 80's, but slowly in miniatures my area. I did invest in a comic/game store in the 80's/90's I'm the one that did the clean up and set up and take down for that shop. I can only rely on the data that I have and done first hand and the gaming meta in my region.

Each region that we all come from have different areas of growth and evolutionary processes concerning games (rpg games/board games/miniatures and so on). I wished I had the opportunity to invest into that company, PP that is. I like their concept and where I believe they took their ideas from. I instead investing into commercial properties. But I did throw some money into a company called Activision, before they merged with Blizzard. Made some good money on that one.

Fantasy Flight Games is another Game company that is ran well. Nothing but praise there for that company.

Riquende wrote:
This is on the Mantic board:

So not even close. That's a shame :-/

 cincydooley wrote:

Riquende wrote:
This is on the Mantic board:

So not even close. That's a shame :-/

They look basically the same scale but with realistic proportions. Every time I see realistic proportioned models next to my 40k and Fantasy models it makes them look like such toy like bobble heads, which is why I think I fell in love with GW's LOTR range. I'd love if GW Cadians were realistic scale, as I love the style of them but hate the bobble-headedness.

The Chaos Daemon Kits were priced fairly decently. Nothing crazy there. Of course, we didn't get any big monsters either.

That's great about the scale looking more realistic I'd I didn't alread have a boatload of the GW empire stuff. :-(