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 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Can someone explain to me more about things like the Ethereal mind control, population sterilization, Vespid mind control etc? Has any of it been confirmed? Some quotes would be nice.

Regarding the Vespids the Codex suggests is it speculation by the Imperium about the mind control - obviously the Imperium would refuse to believe anyone would join them willingly.

Is the stuff in Deathwatch from an Imperial Perspective, or does it outright say it is true?

The Ethereal mind control by pheromones has been retconned. The Inq still suspects them of some form of mind control, but this could just be that they can't understand how the ethereals can get such widely different groups to work together.

The real problem with Deathwatch, other than it being non-GW, is that officially the Jericho reach is an autonomous region of the Tau Empire. Meaning that they more or less run their own show largely without supervision or possibly even the knowledge of the Empire at large. So anything that goes on there might have absolutely no bearing on the Tau empire beyond that region.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Can someone explain to me more about things like the Ethereal mind control, population sterilization, Vespid mind control etc? Has any of it been confirmed? Some quotes would be nice.

Regarding the Vespids the Codex suggests is it speculation by the Imperium about the mind control - obviously the Imperium would refuse to believe anyone would join them willingly.

Is the stuff in Deathwatch from an Imperial Perspective, or does it outright say it is true?

The Ethereal mind control by pheromones has been retconned. The Inq still suspects them of some form of mind control, but this could just be that they can't understand how the ethereals can get such widely different groups to work together.

The real problem with Deathwatch, other than it being non-GW, is that officially the Jericho reach is an autonomous region of the Tau Empire. Meaning that they more or less run their own show largely without supervision or possibly even the knowledge of the Empire at large. So anything that goes on there might have absolutely no bearing on the Tau empire beyond that region.

What do you mean by it's been retconned? So they aren't using mind control pheromones? I thought one story shown the Ethereals definitely have some sort of control over the Tau, once all the Ethereals on the planet died every Fire Warrior started getting really aggressive and was unable to control themselves until another Ethereal arrived. That is probably what happened to Farsight.

Does Deathwatch being non-GW mean it is basically non-canon?

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
What do you mean by it's been retconned? So they aren't using mind control pheromones?

First and foremost, there is no source published or licensed by GW that I am aware of that states as a "fact" of the setting that Tau Ethereals use mind control pheromones. The idea that they do comes from the book Xenology, which is written from the perspective of an Ordo Xeno Inquisitor dissecting alien corpses and -- with the typical Imperial prejudices -- making "conclusions" (a.k.a., insulting guesses) about their physiology and psychology.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Does Deathwatch being non-GW mean it is basically non-canon?

Absolutely not for the extremely simple reason that there is no canon at all. Everything GW or its subsidiaries publish or license "counts" as genuine 40k until GW says otherwise, either by explicitly labeling it as "wrong" (this was only done once, so far as I know) or publishing something new that is completely contradictory (and even in that case, it could just be a matter of "new information" as per some people's take on the 5th ed. Necron codex). In other words, there is nothing about GW licensing a product that makes it "less official" than something GW publishes itself BUT, on the other hand, there isn't much substance to this notion of "what's official" in the first place and certainly nothing as strict as "canon."

You should know that BaronIveagh's arguments ITT regarding the portrayal of the Tau in Deathwatch have no basis in the text itself and are purely an invention according to his personal interpretation of wider Tau society. In other words, he doesn't like how Tau are portrayed in that book so he has come up with two concurrent ways to dismiss it: (1) the Tau in Deathwatch are some weird spin-off Tau that are not representative of the rest of the Tau; and (2) because FFG rather than GW publishes the Deathwatch books, they are somehow "not official."

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Is the stuff in Deathwatch from an Imperial Perspective, or does it outright say it is true?

I would argue that this part of the Deathwatch corebook is not written from any in-game perspective but rather from an out-of-game perspective. The author is saying "this is what it's like on these fictional planets for the purposes of your game" rather than holding up the pretense that the author and the reader live inside of the game's fictional setting (as is the case in some BL publications, like the IG primers or Xenology). That said, I'd also argue that the book -- and most 40k game books -- is written more from the perspective of inspiring the reader to have fun with the setting rather than cataloging "hard facts" about the setting. There is nothing in the Deathwatch text itself to support the idea that the text is "not true," i.e., not an accurate depiction of the fictional world it depicts, which would be odd.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Can someone explain to me more about things like the Ethereal mind control, population sterilization, Vespid mind control etc? Has any of it been confirmed?

Nothing has been confirmed, most is clearly presented as Imperial speculation. Difficult to discuss such delicate questions with a new Codex coming out in maybe 2-3 months, GW could always change the direction like with Necrons or Dark Eldar.

Deathwatch describes human planets, lead by humans as part of the Tau Empire. Doesn't mean, Tau would do the same. The Kroot home planet is also part of the Tau Empire. That doesn't mean Tau like or support eating your enemies.

 Kroothawk wrote:
Deathwatch describes human planets, lead by humans as part of the Tau Empire. Doesn't mean, Tau would do the same.

No. Please stop spreading false information. The Deathwatch core book speaks explicitly about Tau and their human subjects living together. In one specific example, most of the planet is inhabited by humans but there is an equatorial-belt city where the Tau themselves live with humans. Regarding the non-equatorial human population, the Tau rule them through human intermediaries. Even so, the book also contemplates Tau and humans living together. For example, the Tau run re-education centers to indoctrinate loyal humans. Humans that question Tau authority and cultural values are taken by the Tau to a kind of dungeon (which the humans call the Lacuna but which the Tau "decline to name") and everyone else, including the disappeared human's family, is expected to pretend that they never existed.

 Manchu wrote:

You should know that BaronIveagh's arguments ITT regarding the portrayal of the Tau in Deathwatch have no basis in the text itself and are purely an invention according to his personal interpretation of wider Tau society. In other words, he doesn't like how Tau are portrayed in that book so he has come up with two concurrent ways to dismiss it: (1) the Tau in Deathwatch are some weird spin-off Tau that are not representative of the rest of the Tau; and (2) because FFG rather than GW publishes the Deathwatch books, they are somehow "not official."

GW has done all but put up a neon signs that reads: 'FFG products are not official canon' in the way they handle the IP, what parts of the IP they're allowed to use, and what parts they are not allowed to use. I can't post a lot of what I know because it would piss a lot of people off, some of whom I actually like and think deserve their jobs.

But then again, based on my own experiences with GW, one hand doesn't know what the other does, and Jervis Johnson could command a legion of winged monkeys and probably get more competent IP managers.

This is the reason that most competent companies have a setting bible they refer to. GW however likes to freeform the whole thing.

You are exactly right to note that GW "likes to freeform the whole thing" which also precludes your notion that GW has indicated in any sense that FFG products are not canon. It's very simple: if there is no canon at all, then FFG products can neither be canonical nor non-canonical.

 Manchu wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
What do you mean by it's been retconned? So they aren't using mind control pheromones?

First and foremost, there is no source published or licensed by GW that I am aware of that states as a "fact" of the setting that Tau Ethereals use mind control pheromones. The idea that they do comes from the book Xenology, which is written from the perspective of an Ordo Xeno Inquisitor dissecting alien corpses and -- with the typical Imperial prejudices -- making "conclusions" (a.k.a., insulting guesses) about their physiology and psychology.[

If there is no cannon, then why dose everyone fight so hard about it.

nomotog wrote:
If there is no cannon, then why dose everyone fight so hard about it.

It's the nature of the fanbase. GW's mini game appeals to the most obsessive compulsive wargamers. And controversy sells units. Look at Superior Spiderman. It's the same reason they retain Matt Ward

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
meaning the Tau are utterly reliant on the Ethereals and without them they are fairly useless.

Do you consider Farsight to be completely useless? I suppose he is useless from the Ethereals' perspective. But that's the nature of the fluff -- to leave room for us to guess and create. In any case, while it may be possible that Ethereals secrete mind control pheromones, there is no source published of licensed by GW that I know of that says they certainly do as a matter of "fact."

nomotog wrote:
If there is no cannon, then why dose everyone fight so hard about it.

Because the experience of selling and being sold a product and the experience of enjoying it among people with similar interests are two separate things.

 Manchu wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
meaning the Tau are utterly reliant on the Ethereals and without them they are fairly useless.

Do you consider Farsight to be completely useless? I suppose he is useless from the Ethereals' perspective. But that's the nature of the fluff -- to leave room for us to guess and create. In any case, while it may be possible that Ethereals secrete mind control pheromones, there is no source published of licensed by GW that I know of that says they certainly do as a matter of "fact."

Farsight isn't useless, but in the story Flamewing did manage to eventually get his Firewarriors to fight the enemy instead of each other. They weren't able to control themselves (they were extremely aggressive) but that didn't make them completely useless. However, It does make it seem like without an Ethereal they aren't able to function properly though.

Not having an Ethereal nearby and therefore not being able to think properly might explain Farsight's actions and why he split from the rest of the Empire. The Flamewing story does indicate that Ethereals have some sort of controlling or calming influence on the Tau though.

That is one explanation for that event but does the text say that is in fact what happened?

I personally never liked the idea of Pheremone control.

The Ethreals after all are quite rare, low ranking citizens might never meet one in the daily life.
Pheremone control over a large area like a planet, continent or even a city would be extremely unlikely.

I prefer a psycho indoctrination sort of approach, no need for direct contact, but could be extreme emotions if the Ethreal 'passed away'

Agreed. I mean, what would happen to the other castes if the Ethereals disappeared? Would a work cadre of Earth Caste engineers frenzy if they were not next to an Ethereal? Would a Water Caste diplomat flying into a rage or would Air Caste pilots start having seizures? These ideas are dumb, IMO. I don't find it any more interesting when Firewarriors go nuts when their ethereals die, at least not like in the DW book. Farsight's story is much more interesting to me. In that case, it wasn't the absence of some chemical that mattered; at least IMO, what mattered in his case was the lack of direct political oversight.

 Manchu wrote:
That is one explanation for that event but does the text say that is in fact what happened?

You mean the Flamewing story or Farsight?

The story seems to confirm there is some sort of influence over the Fire Caste at least. It would be alright if they left it like that rule in the Codex where every Firewarrior gets really angry when an Ethereal dies, but they had to go for Ethereals having some sort of Control or calming influence over them. it seems like GW is keen to go with the Mind-control route, and if they do that the Tau will be ruined for me.

On the seventh night of the battle, something strange occurred. Flamewing’s warriors fell into a dark rage, one by one shedding the peerless discipline for which the Fire Caste is renowned and surrendering to something far more primal. Soon, the rage consumed Flamewing himself, and he observed his warriors growing surly and fractious. Shockingly, several brawls erupted in the ranks, a phenomenon that none had ever witnessed or experienced.
Then the realisation of what was occurring came to the Commander, and dread filled his soul; the Fire Warriors were succumbing to the same barbaric urges that had set the castes against one another at the very outset of their history, a time of bloodshed that only the coming of the Ethereal Caste had put at an end. The fact that Flamewing’s warriors were regressing to such an atavistic state could only mean that the last of the Ethereals on Zurcon Extremis had fallen to the Tyranids.

I'd be fine with the Flamewing/DW story if it wasn't for this part:

The end was mere moments away, but suddenly, the survivors’ rage lifted, to be replaced with a sudden sense of familiar, blessed calm. A moment later, the communications channels sang with transmissions and a huge, multi-Hunter Cadre force crashed into the rear of the Tyranid horde.

If it wasn't for that sentence and them suddenly calming down, it could be explained that they just got really angry over the Death of an Ethereal.

Yep, that is also how I would read those passages. It seems to indicate that you need at least one Ethereal on the same planet as the Firewarriors in order that the Firewarriors not regress. I can't say that I like it but there it is nonetheless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
EDIT: Why'd you remove the quoted passages?

 Manchu wrote:
Yep, that is also how I would read those passages. It seems to indicate that you need at least one Ethereal on the same planet as the Firewarriors in order that the Firewarriors not regress. I can't say that I like it but there it is nonetheless.

If that's the case, explain Taros or the Farsight enclaves. In the former all the ethereal were killed, in the latter they didn't have any to begin with.

The example shows us that the regression can be overcome through the application of Tau'va-like ideology via willpower, which would leave enough room for both or your examples.

 Manchu wrote:
The example shows us that the regression can be overcome through the application of Tau'va-like ideology via willpower, which would leave enough room for both or your examples.

How the hell does it show that???

He pointed them at a common enemy and said 'KILL' and crossed his fingers. That's not overcomming rage. That's just directing it at soemone else. The example makes it clear that they in no way overcame their rage until the ethereals arrived. Which makes zero sense when looking at the Farsight enclaves in particular, but also Taros to a degree.


On the up side, at least you didn't trot out the 'the ruinous powers are allied with Farsight' excuse that gets bandied about for that discrepancy a lot.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
The example shows us that the regression can be overcome through the application of Tau'va-like ideology via willpower, which would leave enough room for both or your examples.

How the hell does it show that???

He pointed them at a common enemy and said 'KILL' and crossed his fingers. That's not overcomming rage. That's just directing it at soemone else. The example makes it clear that they in no way overcame their rage until the ethereals arrived. Which makes zero sense when looking at the Farsight enclaves in particular, but also Taros to a degree.


On the up side, at least you didn't trot out the 'the ruinous powers are allied with Farsight' excuse that gets bandied about for that discrepancy a lot.

The full story (which i couldn't find) mentions something like he managed to get his Firewarriors into some sort of Righteous fury or something, which he then directs at the enemy. He managed to stop them fighting each other and got them to fight to the actual enemy, but they didn't overcome their rage until reinforcements arrived and it suddenly went away.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
How the hell does it show that???

Because they were able to control themselves ... obviously? But we can go further. The biological stock from which the Firewarriors are descended showed the capacity to control themselves before the Ethereals arose. They chose brutal warfare that posed an existential threat to their own species. We have no reason to believe that they were out of their minds. The Ethereals came along and told them they were "out of control" and that this warfare was "madness." The Ethereals purported to offer them sanity and self-control. Instead of literal "self-control," what the Ethereals actually offered was to control them. And all of Tau society is premised on the Ethereals broadly directing all activity. The Tau evolve very quickly in biological terms. It stands to reason that the evolution of their culture is no less rapid. In that case, non-Ethereal Tau may very well not know what it feels like to be responsible solely for oneself. They may not understand, in a cultural sense, what to do without the Ethereals guiding them. And this could be purely social and not at all biological. I suppose it could be totally unrelated to the actual presence or absence of Ethereals and have more to do with educated guesses -- although the example seems to show a clear correlation between the physical presence of the Ethereals and the physiological/psychological state of the Firewarriors. In any case, whether the phenomenon is social or biological or both, it could be "unlearned" -- and this could explain Farsight. As to why it would not have been more severe on Taros: I don't have enough information to guess, which is all I could do in any event.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
On the up side, at least you didn't trot out the 'the ruinous powers are allied with Farsight' excuse that gets bandied about for that discrepancy a lot.

No, of course I wouldn't say that.

 Manchu wrote:
Because they were able to control themselves ... obviously? But we can go further. The biological stock from which the Firewarriors are descended showed the capacity to control themselves before the Ethereals arose. They chose brutal warfare that posed an existential threat to their own species. We have no reason to believe that they were out of their minds. The Ethereals came along and told them they were "out of control" and that this warfare was "madness." The Ethereals purported to offer them sanity and self-control. Instead of literal "self-control," what the Ethereals actually offered was to control them. And all of Tau society is premised on the Ethereals broadly directing all activity. The Tau evolve very quickly in biological terms. It stands to reason that the evolution of their culture is no less rapid. In that case, non-Ethereal Tau may very well not know what it feels like to be responsible solely for oneself. They may not understand, in a cultural sense, what to do without the Ethereals guiding them. And this could be purely social and not at all biological. I suppose it could be totally unrelated to the actual presence or absence of Ethereals and have more to do with educated guesses -- although the example seems to show a clear correlation between the physical presence of the Ethereals and the physiological/psychological state of the Firewarriors. In any case, whether the phenomenon is social or biological or both, it could be "unlearned" -- and this could explain Farsight. As to why it would not have been more severe on Taros: I don't have enough information to guess, which is all I could do in any event.

*sigh*

Show me at what point they were able to control themselves? Because I'm not seeing it.


Your suppositions on Tau culture and biology are interesting, but it's also entirely your opinion. Like the 'where did the ethereals come from?' question, the 'how the hell did they do it?' question is unlikely to be answered, but we all have our pet theories.

 Manchu wrote:
No, of course I wouldn't say that.

It has been said, however, and on this board in one of the other tau threads. And railed about on /tg/.


For those that don't know: in a nutshell, the theory is that the Dawn Blade is a warp tainted artifact (also the reason he's 300 years old when most Tau don't reach 50). It allows him to keep the Tau under control without ethereals (aside from it's more obvious use of splitting open tanks).


Other contenders for 'who is behind Farsight?' are the Necrons and the Eldar.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Show me at what point they were able to control themselves? Because I'm not seeing it.

This request is the equivalent of asking me to show you where the screen of your computer is. Unfortunately, I cannot help.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Your suppositions on Tau culture and biology are interesting, but it's also entirely your opinion.

I freely admitted as much in the text you quoted.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
For those that don't know: in a nutshell, the theory is that the Dawn Blade is a warp tainted artifact (also the reason he's 300 years old when most Tau don't reach 50). It allows him to keep the Tau under control without ethereals (aside from it's more obvious use of splitting open tanks).

That last part is why you'll never catch me suggesting this theory. It simply doesn't make sense given that the Tau are not psychically receptive.

 Manchu wrote:
This request is the equivalent of asking me to show you where the screen of your computer is. Unfortunately, I cannot help.

That's because it is not there. At no point in the text does it say they regain control of themselves before the hunter cadres show up. All the Commander did was give them all something to attack.


Let's consider this:

It's not psychic. Tau are, as you say yourself, not a psychically receptive race.

It's not pheromones. Tau battlesuits are NCB sealed. Pheromones would never get through. (even leaving out the whole and they fight in space and under water thing)

It's not social, as the Tau would not have known instantly that the last ethereal someplace on the planet had died.

Deathwatch even openly mocks the pheromone theory.
Inquisition catches a tau ethereal and looks for pheromone organs, but couldn't find any.
Imperial conclusion: "Now those freaking send gen-manipulated Tau just to destroy our pet theories!"

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
This request is the equivalent of asking me to show you where the screen of your computer is. Unfortunately, I cannot help.

That's because it is not there. At no point in the text does it say they regain control of themselves before the hunter cadres show up. All the Commander did was give them all something to attack.


Let's consider this:

It's not psychic. Tau are, as you say yourself, not a psychically receptive race.

It's not pheromones. Tau battlesuits are NCB sealed. Pheromones would never get through. (even leaving out the whole and they fight in space and under water thing)

It's not social, as the Tau would not have known instantly that the last ethereal someplace on the planet had died.

It's magic. I swear.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
The Nicassar, however have starship psychic tech that makes the eldar look like orcs.

I don't like xenos much, but you are dead wrong when you think the Nicassar are superior to the Eldar. The Webway, Wraithbone, the Talismans of Vaul/Blackstone Fortresses, the Craftworlds, and so many more. In the 40k galaxy, no species can match or surpass the Eldar when it comes to psychic prowess. I'd wager they've even surpassed the Old Ones, and so despite my incredulity, I find myself defending the Eldar against such baseless allegations that they are inferior to such animal upstarts like the Tau and the Nicassar.

The entire thing is powered and propelled by the psychic power of the captain of the ship. All they lack is a warp drive (why this is has never been explained).

Eldar ships lack a Warp drive too, seeing as they use the Webway for FTL travel. As for being powered by the psychic power of the ship's captain? Pretty sure Eldar could do that too, as shown by the fact that Eldar souls can power and drive Wraithguard/Wraithlords. I find it unlikely in the extreme they could not do the same for ships if they wanted to. They use solar sails instead because its safer, more efficient, and more elegant to do so.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
It's not social, as the Tau would not have known instantly that the last ethereal someplace on the planet had died.

I wonder, though, if it might be a kind of psychological issue -- basically like breaking morale but more along the lines of mass hysteria. Did the last Ethereal on the planet really die at that instant or was it simply the case that a group of Firewarriors experienced mass hysteria and explained it in terms of the last Ethereal dying? The other issue is that they are said to have instantly felt a sense of calm when, unknown to them based on visual cues, reinforcements including Ethereals, arrived. To me, the whole thing sounds like a cover up. We've got a major military blunder turned into a kind of spiritual myth. Whatever those Firewarriors experienced (and I think you're right, it seems unlikely to me to be an issue of pheromones or psychic sensitivity) was culturally determined by their a priori social and political reliance on the Ethereals.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

It's not social, as the Tau would not have known instantly that the last ethereal someplace on the planet had died.

Don't they all glow red like in Dawn of War

'All is lost 'BLERRGHHH