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I can venture a guess that you've seen nothing of the sort, lol.

A 13 year old fighting in Africa is a lot different than a chaos cultist. For one the chaos cultists needs to be discrete when walking around in a city or anywhere with a weapon he cannot just walk around brandishing an autogun, he would be killed pretty fast. The fighting style of a group of child soldiers compared to a group of chaos cultists are so completely different its not even funny. There two groups in which probably the only thing they have in common is that they kill innocent people and used crappy second hand weapons thats it. But each weapon have been created for their own circumstance, an autogun with a stock is easy to conceal under a cloak than one with a stock and compliments the cultists way of fighting, stealthy hit and run tactics in a hive city or where ever.

I know as far as fluff goes theyre lacking here but since we have modern shotguns and rifles with built in recoil dampening springs. (go to a gun store with firing range and rent an AA12 like no recoil at all its amazing. although without class 3 weapons lisence in america you have to get a civilianized semiauto one stillcool) Since we have that in the 2nd melinium its not unreasonable that all of their guns have no recoil in the 41st and that the stock on lasguns is just for a good cheekwell for aim for IG troops

It's the year 40K where Super Warrior worship the Dead Emperor in theyr flying churches and kill aliens and heretics above a low shoe. Logic and elvis left the building a long time ago. Why bother looking for a logic awser?

 GambleDwarf wrote:
A 13 year old fighting in Africa is a lot different than a chaos cultist. For one the chaos cultists needs to be discrete when walking around in a city or anywhere with a weapon he cannot just walk around brandishing an autogun, he would be killed pretty fast. The fighting style of a group of child soldiers compared to a group of chaos cultists are so completely different its not even funny. There two groups in which probably the only thing they have in common is that they kill innocent people and used crappy second hand weapons thats it. But each weapon have been created for their own circumstance, an autogun with a stock is easy to conceal under a cloak than one with a stock and compliments the cultists way of fighting, stealthy hit and run tactics in a hive city or where ever.

Yes yes, the cultist needs to hide his gun, nevermind the guy with the heavy stubber or the giant tank that is behind him. These are battlefield miniatures, not clandestine agents.

I can venture a guess that you've seen nothing of the sort, lol.

I've seen a little, on TV!

 Andrew1975 wrote:


Yes yes, the cultist needs to hide his gun, nevermind the guy with the heavy stubber or the giant tank that is behind him. These are battlefield miniatures, not clandestine agents.

Yes the Cultist wouldn't need to keep his Autugun hidden in open conflict, what about when there isn't a war? You really think Chaos Cults on Imperium controlled worlds are going to be walking around in gangs everyone brandishing their weapons willy nilly, no. Your not realizing that almost all Chaos Cults start as small clandestine groups that are extremely secret and try their best to stay hidden from Imperial eyes or else have a Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor show up and give them the Emperor's fiery justice. Besides i can see a stockless autogun being used to pretty good effect in any Hive City in which distances are nice and close, would you not prefer something more compact to move around in buildings with?

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Bolter rounds have a conventional propellant to push them out the barrel, and a rocket motor to propel them beyond that.

The technology doesn't make 100% sense. It's essentially gyrojet style technology with a two stage propellant. Probably a low recoil, (relatively) low muzzle velocity, then a rapid acceleration with the rocket. Seems like it would have trouble penetrating at point blank range if it worked that way.

I try not to think too much about it, lol. It's Fantastech. It works because it does.

"Low velocity" can still be plenty lethal. At point blank range the bolt shell might not penetrate power armor, but anything less than that is still going to get punched right through.

 GambleDwarf wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:


Yes yes, the cultist needs to hide his gun, nevermind the guy with the heavy stubber or the giant tank that is behind him. These are battlefield miniatures, not clandestine agents.

Yes the Cultist wouldn't need to keep his Autugun hidden in open conflict, what about when there isn't a war? You really think Chaos Cults on Imperium controlled worlds are going to be walking around in gangs everyone brandishing their weapons willy nilly, no. Your not realizing that almost all Chaos Cults start as small clandestine groups that are extremely secret and try their best to stay hidden from Imperial eyes or else have a Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor show up and give them the Emperor's fiery justice. Besides i can see a stockless autogun being used to pretty good effect in any Hive City in which distances are nice and close, would you not prefer something more compact to move around in buildings with?

Sure, sub-machine guns are great. On a real battlefield you want a little more range that's why most rebels and terrorists tend to leave those at home when the real war starts or they have the foresight to use collapsible stocks. For reference the AK is the most widely used weapon in this case, rarely do you see them with no stock. It happens sure, but not as a rule. People modify guns in all kinds of goofy ways for concealment, sawn off no stock shotguns for example. Once a rebellion gets to the point of open conflict though you are not going to see much of that equipment as its no longer necessary and people are using whatever weapon they can find, usually unmodified military grade armament.

Seriously trying to shoot an assault rifle without a stock is just a bad idea. I find more justification for Lazguns without stocks as depending on the science there should be no kick. I understand some people feel the need to fluff justify everything, but it's not really necessary.

GambleDwarf wrote:You really think Chaos Cults on Imperium controlled worlds are going to be walking around in gangs everyone brandishing their weapons willy nilly, no.

Well, it depends on the planet in question ... I've seen and read about a lot of Imperial worlds having armed citizens because of stuff like gang warfare in lower hives or anti-mutant pogroms. I'm sure it's a local thing, but I'd wager that many worlds may not have any laws regulating the possession of weapons, not in the least because it also serves to prepare the population for alien invasion. Given that Imperial governors are personally held responsible for ensuring the readiness of their world, I'd wager many not caring for an increase in gun violence (Necromunda ) as long as it keeps his world in his hands.
I could imagine clever Chaos cults pretending to be a militia of "concerned citizens" or even an Imperial cult paying lip-service to the local Ecclesiarchy until they're ready to revolt.

You do raise an excellent point regarding stockless autoguns and their usage in CQB, however. Many submachineguns in the past, and many modern day assault rifles, have been produced with a foldable stock that can be retracted, for specifically such combat situations. In 40k, bolters were invented for the Space Marines, and the Astartes are shock troops who are all about CQB. They don't dig in and snipe from many hundred meters afar, but rather get as close as possible. Especially when drop-podding into a hot zone I could imagine stocks just being a nuisance when you're immediately surrounded by enemies trying to club or claw at you.

And that's aside from them just not being compatible to a suit of armour as massive as that, anyhow. The thick breastplate and uberlarge pauldrons would prevent them from taking proper aim, so why bother with a stock that would only end up being a hindrance in close combat? The weapon's own weight likely makes it suitable as an ersatz-hammer anyways, if you really want to slap someone with it. In most cases, power armour, training and/or auto-senses should make up for when you truly have to aim at something afar.

The other users of bolt weapons either replicate the Space Marines' tactics, or they just have that gun because it's some sort of heirloom or status symbol.

Exalbaru wrote:I know as far as fluff goes theyre lacking here but since we have modern shotguns and rifles with built in recoil dampening springs. [...] Since we have that in the 2nd melinium its not unreasonable that all of their guns have no recoil in the 41st and that the stock on lasguns is just for a good cheekwell for aim for IG troops

In fact, the 3E rulebook's bolter cross-section does show a "blast compensator" which kinda reminds me of the working principle of a recoilless rifle. I'm not sure if it would work as well, considering that the blast is only directed upwards, but perhaps it is meant to counteract a weapon's natural climb ... either way, I think reducing recoil is the only thing this part could have been meant for by whoever has written this.

I just looked up the stats for cultists in my little Dark Vengeance flier. They are BS 3, same as an IG guardsman with a lasgun. Guardsman has better training, a stock for better stability, and what I would assume would be more accurate direct fire with the laser.

*shrugz*

Thats because Cultists are often traitor guardsmen, or disposessed underhive gangers that have some experience with weaponry.

Don't assume Cultist means untrained. A cult will almost certaintly have some sort of weapons training.

Also, BS3 encompasses a ridiculously broad scope of ability. I mean, we're talking about a system where hit probability is measured in divisions of sixths.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Thats because Cultists are often traitor guardsmen, or disposessed underhive gangers that have some experience with weaponry.

Don't assume Cultist means untrained. A cult will almost certaintly have some sort of weapons training.

Many cultists (non-former guardsman) also have little or no proper training, whereas a regular guardsman has seen some standardized training, and likely has seen multiple campaigns.

I hear what you are saying though. Many cultists have been in multiple campaigns in their own right, and likley have had some training from veterans.

 btr75 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Thats because Cultists are often traitor guardsmen, or disposessed underhive gangers that have some experience with weaponry.

Don't assume Cultist means untrained. A cult will almost certaintly have some sort of weapons training.

Many cultists (non-former guardsman) also have little or no proper training, whereas a regular guardsman has seen some standardized training, and likely has seen multiple campaigns.

I hear what you are saying though. Many cultists have been in multiple campaigns in their own right, and likley have had some training from veterans.

"regular guardsman has seen some standardized training, and likely has seen multiple campaigns." Really? I thought they were just bubble wrap for tanks. I barely see them survive battles much less campaigns. Don't know how many campaigns I would want to survive, at least with them knowing about it.

Officer: "Welcome to the Vets corps, here is your melta gun, now go suicide charr....erm.....I mean take out that tank!"
Gaurdsman: "Er....Thanks?.........No f..ing stock on this either.....Why is it painted red?.......Wait that's blood isn't it?"
Officer: "Blood of Veterans, you should feel honored to touch it, now git charging!"

"regular guardsman has seen some standardized training, and likely has seen multiple campaigns." Really? I thought they were just bubble wrap for tanks. I barely see them survive battles much less campaigns. Don't know how many campaigns I would want to survive, at least with them knowing about it.

Officer: "Welcome to the Vets corps, here is your melta gun, now go suicide charr....erm.....I mean take out that tank!"
Gaurdsman: "Er....Thanks?.........No f..ing stock on this either.....Why is it painted red?.......Wait that's blood isn't it?"
Officer: "Blood of Veterans, you should feel honored to touch it, now git charging!"

Probably conscripts in this case

 btr75 wrote:

"regular guardsman has seen some standardized training, and likely has seen multiple campaigns." Really? I thought they were just bubble wrap for tanks. I barely see them survive battles much less campaigns. Don't know how many campaigns I would want to survive, at least with them knowing about it.

Officer: "Welcome to the Vets corps, here is your melta gun, now go suicide charr....erm.....I mean take out that tank!"
Gaurdsman: "Er....Thanks?.........No f..ing stock on this either.....Why is it painted red?.......Wait that's blood isn't it?"
Officer: "Blood of Veterans, you should feel honored to touch it, now git charging!"

Probably conscripts in this case

No, this is apparently all vets are good for going by the game. Suicidal Melta Vets are the only Vets I ever see.

Officer: "Welcome to the Vets corps, here is your melta gun, now go suicide charr....erm.....I mean take out that tank!"
Gaurdsman: "Er....Thanks?.........No f..ing stock on this either.....Why is it painted red?.......Wait that's blood isn't it?"
Officer: "Blood of Veterans, you should feel honored to touch it, now git charging!"

Probably conscripts in this case

Space marines may not actually engage in long range combat very often. They're designed for close quarters and 'get up close and scare the gak out of enemies'. Hell, some Marines learn that ability to use even bolters one handed (there was even a rule in the games covering that as I recall.) so the absence of a stock may not be an issue.

Failing that chalk it up to power armor providing a rigid firing platform (I'm sure they can lock the servos in place for accurate firing if need be, assuming the power armor isn't meant to do so automatically or with a thought.)

Collapsible and folding stocks are innovations that we have today. I see no defensible reason why engineers would completely omit stocks on bolt guns.

Granted, we also have weapons lacking iron sights(and no accessory mounting options for sights), and quirks like the heavy bolter being seemingly designed for hip-shooting only, so I honestly don't expect particularly realistic depictions of weapons to begin with.

It seems like a combination of art-mirroring-modeling and an acceptably low level of realism(given the IP, this isn't a huge problem).

there is no point in wasting materials on something that isn't needed. Marines don't need stocks on their bolters, and most modern SMGs don't have stocks either.

The material thats been saved on a bolter stock can be used to make other things.

 Grey Templar wrote:
there is no point in wasting materials on something that isn't needed. Marines don't need stocks on their bolters, and most modern SMGs don't have stocks either.

The material thats been saved on a bolter stock can be used to make other things.

As far as I know, one of the widely used submachine guns, the MP5, has variants with fixed or collapsible stocks.

As far as 'wasting material', I see no reason to believe that boltguns are made of some particularly scarce substance or that the forge worlds producing them would cut corners to omit a basic feature like that.

Variants yes, but the MP5 is fully functional without a stock.

And even base metals like Iron are valuable. Cost cutting is cost cutting. When you have a galaxy spanning empire in the countless trillions that little bit of metal you saved could actually be quite a lot.

SMGs actually have more recoil than most assault rifles. Almost all SMGs have collapsible stocks, with the intent that they be used.

Remember the true grit rule (now replace by giving all marines a bolt pistol... lame). They can fire the bloody thing one handed, they don't need a stock.

 Gunhead1 wrote:

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
Take into account some Marines fire bolters one-handed. Not much recoil there.

Then again, a rememberancer in an early HH book broke his arm firing a bolt pistol. So huge recoil for us, barely anything for a Mahreen.

I think I know the book your talking about (don't remember the title though) and I thought that he almost broke his wrist because he was old and not trained to fire weapons in general. Also bolt pistols are used by the IG a lot and in the codex you can give Stroom troopers Boltguns.

As for the issue of no stock Space marine strength, though IMHO it comes down to recoil dampners which allow normal humans to use them as well (though not as good). Though it is mainly a Space marine weapon.

Well, except that it isn't. Humans use it far more than marines do.

The recoil of a boltgun is overrated anyway, they just want to try to make it sound cool. But humans can use similar caliber weapons without breaking their arms off, never mind well trained humans using 41st millennium technology.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Variants yes, but the MP5 is fully functional without a stock.

And even base metals like Iron are valuable. Cost cutting is cost cutting. When you have a galaxy spanning empire in the countless trillions that little bit of metal you saved could actually be quite a lot.

The Imperium doesn't cut costs about Space Marines.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Variants yes, but the MP5 is fully functional without a stock.

And even base metals like Iron are valuable. Cost cutting is cost cutting. When you have a galaxy spanning empire in the countless trillions that little bit of metal you saved could actually be quite a lot.

I didn't say there didn't exist stockless configurations of the MP5.

Re: materials, my point still stands -- there's no known reason for them to cut corners there just for the sake of your argument being right. There would be relatively few boltguns being produced(compared to say, lasguns).

The justification for stockless bolters is out-of-universe, in my view. There is no need to bend realism or fluff.

I think some boltguns would have stocks, depending on the tastes of the user. But that's just me.

A guardsman using a boltgun (lucky him!) would likely want a stock; a sister of battle would likely have little need.

 Melissia wrote:
I think some boltguns would have stocks, depending on the tastes of the user. But that's just me.

A guardsman using a boltgun (lucky him!) would likely want a stock; a sister of battle would likely have little need.

Yeah, there are actually some variants with stocks. according to Lexicanum(referencing Imperial Armour).

The 2nd Edition boltgun had a stock modeled on it. Even though you had to cut it off to mount it on nearly any model.

And most modern SMGs have a stock of some sort. There are variants that don't, but they are the exception, not the rule, and usually a stock is omitted for compactness, not because it functions perfectly without it. In fact, only a handful of PDW style SMGs don't have stocks.

People watch too many movies, lol,

 Lynata wrote:
Commissars seem to be able to use bolt pistols just fine ("promotions!"), and bolt pistols use the same ammo as bolters do.

You get astartes size bolt weapons and human sized bolt weapons. They have different calibres.