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I borrowed my friends codex yesterday to check his list (he's checking mine too), and I decided to read some of the fluff, since I haven't got the space marine army book. On page 24 it mentions that every SM wants to be an Ultramarine. I know the book was written by matt ward, and I know he loves ultramarines with all his being, but isn't that a little extreme? I'm pretty sure grey knights don't say: "Jee, being the emperors finest, incorruptible warriors is boring, we only get the most important tasks. I wish I was an ultra marine."

PS. This isn't a troll post.

Ward sucks at fluff thats all there really is to say about it, he put his own thoughts in the book instead of the companies fluff.

Better question is, who wouldn't want to be an ultramarine?

You don't suffer from the red thirst, you don't have to worry about allied Psykers, you don't drink too much, you don't have a secret to keep.

Being an Ultramarine is pretty sweet!

 DeathReaper wrote:
Better question is, who wouldn't want to be an ultramarine?

You don't suffer from the red thirst, you don't have to worry about allied Psykers, you don't drink too much, you don't have a secret to keep.

Being an Ultramarine is pretty sweet!

I know right? You have a peaceful(ish) corner of the universe which you basically control, if you rise high enough you get control of a planet, it does seem like a pretty sweet gig.

I guess if you look at it that way being an ultra marine would be pretty sweet.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Better question is, who wouldn't want to be an ultramarine?

You don't suffer from the red thirst, you don't have to worry about allied Psykers, you don't drink too much, you don't have a secret to keep.

Being an Ultramarine is pretty sweet!

This man speaks the truth.

@OP, thanks for the walk down memory lane. Its 2008 all over again

 DeathReaper wrote:
Better question is, who wouldn't want to be an ultramarine?

You don't suffer from the red thirst, you don't have to worry about allied Psykers, you don't drink too much, you don't have a secret to keep.

Being an Ultramarine is pretty sweet!

Serious or not, there's truth in them hills!

 DeathReaper wrote:
Better question is, who wouldn't want to be an ultramarine?

You don't suffer from the red thirst, you don't have to worry about allied Psykers, you don't drink too much, you don't have a secret to keep.

Being an Ultramarine is pretty sweet!

This guy is onto something.

Wanted to make absolutely sure that you were also TFG, there Plumbumbarum?

Well, success.

Really? Wow I haven't had a grudge against Matt Ward until now. Thats probably the worst thing he's ever wrote. My Black Templars don't want to be Ultramarines I hope

My Ultramarines follow the fluff set down in Codex Ultramarines, circa 1995. I disregard any fluff written for them lately.

My Black Templars don't want to be Ultramarines I hope

Nope, originally, they wanted to be Yellow vanilla marines, not Blue ones.

Interestingly, page 24 mentions 3 groups of Marines; those of Ultramarine descent, those who aren't but aspire to follow the Codex, and those who don't follow the Codex.



Tempest in a teapot indeed.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
My Ultramarines follow the fluff set down in Codex Ultramarines, circa 1995. I disregard any fluff written for them lately.

My Black Templars don't want to be Ultramarines I hope

Nope, originally, they wanted to be Yellow vanilla marines, not Blue ones.

Actually I am a big fan of imperial fists, rogal dorn and all that. I would play them just for fluff reasons but that yellow.... bwaah

If you have to put a disclaimer on your first post in a thread, you are doomed.

So, apparently "Chapters who follow the Codex Astartes revere its author and strive to emulate his teachings" is equal to "every Space Marine wants to be an Ultramarine".

I feel vindicated in my belief that, unfortunately, the majority of Marine fans are prone to hyperbole and fact-twisting whenever their favourite army is concerned. Explains a lot of other convictions that seem to dominate public opinion.
Props for giving the exact source, though. Certainly made it a lot easier to check what the book actually says.

To be fair, why exactly was it necessary to note that those chapters "Can never be Ultramarines"? This is implicitly attributing a lesser status towards Marines not descending from Guilliman, and the paragraph concerning "aberrant chapters" is pretty clear in its poor opinion of those chapters who do not follow Roboute's legacy.

Wait, so codexes are written from a biased in universe point of view sometimes? Get out of town!

Well, the Ultramarines and their direct Successor Chapters do have the purest geneseed of all. That does not make them superior warriors (some geneseed flaws can actually become strengths, or not matter at all), but it is perceived as an advantage within the setting, and a reason for why most Successor Chapters come from UM stock.

As far as the aberrant Chapters are concerned, this really should not come to anyone's surprise. What a player may regard as "cool" is often very controversial or outright regarded as bad within the setting itself. Just look at all the Space Wolf fans cheering about their Chapter being more free and more liberal from the IoM, apparently not realising that this trait does not only come with advantages.

In the end, I'm just saying that the protest gets blown hugely out of proportion, flames fanned further by this dreadful "telephone game" where small details are omitted or changed, and over the course of a couple threads the "fact" suddenly says something else entirely.

 Lynata wrote:
So, apparently "Chapters who follow the Codex Astartes revere its author and strive to emulate his teachings" is equal to "every Space Marine wants to be an Ultramarine".

I feel vindicated in my belief that, unfortunately, the majority of Marine fans are prone to hyperbole and fact-twisting whenever their favourite army is concerned. Explains a lot of other convictions that seem to dominate public opinion.
Props for giving the exact source, though. Certainly made it a lot easier to check what the book actually says.

Nice attempt.

But it was Wards WD-interview mostly, what got him his reputation.

You know where he actually claimed every space marine would.... and then it went on in the dex...
Youre not gonna wash this off of him.

I've heard of this interview but never seen it. Link?

 pretre wrote:
Wait, so codexes are written from a biased in universe point of view sometimes? Get out of town!

As 1had pointed out, this is compounded by Ward's distinctly out of universe interviews, which make his pro-Ultramarines stance very much apparent.

"[t]he Ultramarines are undoubtedly the best Space Marines ever. Yes, really! Thanks to the heritage of Guilliman and their myriad heroic deeds, the Ultramarines are the exemplars of the Space Marines. With a few fringe exceptions... all Space Marine chapters want to be like the Ultramarines and recognize Marneus Calgar as their Spiritual Liege."

From 1d4chan, but I'm not wasting time looking for the actual interview (I am pretty sure Vaktathi has posted it before).

The choler projected towards him didn't just spawn from the ether, impromptu of nothing.

 pretre wrote:
I've heard of this interview but never seen it. Link?

I have the White Dwarf this was in..somewhere..
As usual, interview right at the release of the codex is the best hint I can give at this late hour.








Sorry moving on to

Void__Dragon wrote:The choler projected towards him didn't just spawn from the ether, impromptu of nothing.

That I didn't say. He butchered bits and pieces of SoB fluff in the new Minidex as well, so I've got my own power axe to grind with him.
I'm just saying that it's not this bad. Just like Black Library and FFG freelancers, all of GW's own writers have their very own opinions and ideas on how the setting "works". But for GW codices, this isn't important. What is important is the studio consensus - the stuff that actually ends up being put to print.

In the end, the Codex doesn't say what a whole lot of loud people proclaim it says. Nothing more, nothing less.

1hadhq wrote:Nice attempt.

Blame it on this army's players making up about half the fanbase (I'm quite sure that every army has the "my guys are the bestest!" sort of players, so this number would go up exponentially when you have more fans), or on the focus in SM fluff simply making it the most attractive army for them. But it's what I see time and time again.
It's not as rampant here as on, say, FFG's Deathwatch forum, but still.

Well yeah, a lot of stuff is overblown or outright lied about.

Tigurius was contacting the Hive Mind at least an edition before Ward's codex, for example.

 Lynata wrote:
Well, the Ultramarines and their direct Successor Chapters do have the purest geneseed of all. That does not make them superior warriors (some geneseed flaws can actually become strengths, or not matter at all), but it is perceived as an advantage within the setting, and a reason for why most Successor Chapters come from UM stock.
.

Thats kind of silly. Yes, true, flaws within the geneseed may lead to... unsavory results, such as the 21st Founding. They tried to create the perfect marines, removing supposed defects, and it ended up going bad. Like the Flame Falcons, wiped out after a 100 years of their inception.

But there are some flaws that simply should be used to awesome effect. The Sons of Antaeus, are unusually large and robust specimens, capable of surviving wounds and injuries that would kill other space marines. Probably the only great result of the 21st Founding.

The Black Dragons, who have unusual bone growth, where their bones grow out of their skin. These are usually sharpened, and coated in adamantium to create a kind of wolverine-tyranid-space marine hybrid.

The Salamanders. Not much going on, but their black skin and red eyes serve to make them look like demons in battle, and you don't wan't to be charged by demon marines. Terrifying.

 Lynata wrote:
Well, the Ultramarines and their direct Successor Chapters do have the purest geneseed of all. That does not make them superior warriors (some geneseed flaws can actually become strengths, or not matter at all), but it is perceived as an advantage within the setting, and a reason for why most Successor Chapters come from UM stock.

As far as the aberrant Chapters are concerned, this really should not come to anyone's surprise. What a player may regard as "cool" is often very controversial or outright regarded as bad within the setting itself. Just look at all the Space Wolf fans cheering about their Chapter being more free and more liberal from the IoM, apparently not realising that this trait does not only come with advantages.

In the end, I'm just saying that the protest gets blown hugely out of proportion, flames fanned further by this dreadful "telephone game" where small details are omitted or changed, and over the course of a couple threads the "fact" suddenly says something else entirely.

This is false. Dark Angels gene seed is just as pure. They have less successor chapters for political reasons.

/nitpick over

CrowSplat wrote:This is false. Dark Angels gene seed is just as pure. They have less successor chapters for political reasons.

After checking the Index Astartes, I generally agree with this assessment - however, I would point out that, to the Space Marines, such meta-knowledge is likely not available, or at least not to the same degree. To which degree a Chapter may view the Ultramarines as a pinnacle of the Astartes is less a matter of truths but rather one of emotions, assumptions and make-believe. Most Successor Chapters come from UM-stock, which to a whole lot of Marines must look like this is the preferred geneseed ... which it is, albeit not only for the reasons they might think.

My wording was incorrect, though, so thanks for adding this. I've just started playing the Deathwatch RPG and remembered the "UM geneseed = purest" from its Core Rulebook. Apparently this is yet another deviation from studio fluff.
Ironic how I gave out flawed info based on an outsourced product, seeing as it is usually me who cautions people against potential discrepancies in licensed material...

Legion of Flame wrote:But there are some flaws that simply should be used to awesome effect. The Sons of Antaeus, are unusually large and robust specimens, capable of surviving wounds and injuries that would kill other space marines. Probably the only great result of the 21st Founding.
The Black Dragons, who have unusual bone growth, where their bones grow out of their skin. These are usually sharpened, and coated in adamantium to create a kind of wolverine-tyranid-space marine hybrid.
The Salamanders. Not much going on, but their black skin and red eyes serve to make them look like demons in battle, and you don't wan't to be charged by demon marines. Terrifying.

That's exactly what I said, though, isn't it?
Look at these perks from an in-universe point of view and you've got a bunch of mutants who look suspiciously close to the Great Enemy. The Imperium doesn't like mutations, even less if they apparently happened randomly rather than being the result of meticulous planning and experimentation.
Have you not heard, citizen? Mutation is the mark of Chaos!

Well, Ultramarine geneseed IS the purest. So is Dark Angel geneseed.

UM geneseed was also the most plentiful after the Horus Heresy, what with them having efficient recruitment and not being there for the showdown on Terra. I'd imagine well over half of the newly created Chapters in Guilliman's Space Marine reform were former Ultramarines. Would be interesting if anyone has any numbers, ofc.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Wanted to make absolutely sure that you were also TFG, there Plumbumbarum?

Well, success.

Not sure, Ward hater is just as much sweeping generalisation and simplification as Ward apologist imo so that just reflected this opinion of mine. And TFG is way more insulting than both if you actualy say it so look in the mirror first maybe.

Btw SM codex is so good on gaming level that in fact I don't even care for Marneus Calgar epic epicness or everybody wanting to be a smurf, I just ignore it not to mention I like Ultramarines after cpt Titus. My main problem with Ward is Newcrons fluff, It's harder to ignore when the models scream of it, also I consider his writing mediocore at best and his rules bombastic. I generaly like him though, GW without him would not be the same anymore.