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I was flicking through the C:Eldar last night, and came across a pic of a Dire Avenger.
He had a knife strapped to his leg, and a grenade.
Even the plastic kit seems to give them grenades.

So, a CCW and some sort of grenade would be nice, if only as upgrades.

to answer OP, Yes.

Wraithwall. Annoying people since 3rd ed

While I love my eldar and am shamelessly partisan with them, I feel the lack of decent ranged guns, combined with the transport nerfs really kicked the eldar in the nuts. Then the latest faq came along and stuck the boot in while we were down.

Our HQ choices are overall good, but the choices are limited because Farseers/Eldrad are an autotake. I'd love to take the new psychic cards I bought but I have to ask myself in every game - Is it fortune/guide/doom? no. Oh, and now he can't cast in a vehicle. Full stop. Other races get to shoot/buff stuff, but the great psykers of 40k?
And Runes of Warding causes sulks in non eldar players. We have to take them, because other than that we have no psychic defence.
The Avatar is great fun in the right list - almost an autotake now everyone seems to be running footdar due to his fearless bubble.
The autarch is pointless - his force multiplier is to +1 to reserves. Woo. Is it fortune/guide/doom? no. At which point he's rarely used.
Phoenix Lords have finally become good (imo) as a 2+ now actually means something now. One for the fans though. And now we have the fun of USR's interacting in weird ways and producing strange combinations of rules. And no one knows if we're supposed to be able to do what we appear to be able to, which causes mid game arguments.
And they are still expensive.

Fire Dragons - autotake.
Banshees - can't charge out of a transport, can't survive out of one.
Scorpions - slightly more durable, but can't deal with other assualt units. Oh and the exarch can have a str 6 power fist or a biting blade. Either of which gets him killed in a challenge.
Harlequins - our only survivable assault unit. Until the flamers arrive. Fortune becomes a necessity.
Wraithguard - better as troops. They get called overpowered, even though they have a 12" range.

Wave serpants - have been poor since 5th (IMO again) 5th was where missile spam hit and most armies just blow them up straight away - unless it's night fighting. In the meantime, a razorback is what, 35pts? compared to 120pts odd. Oh, and when ours blow up, we always lose half the squad. And whats left tends to be not enough to do a decent job.

Guardians combine the stats of guard with a higher points cost and less range.
Guardian Jetbikes are good - one of the few good choices we have left.
Rangers are good if people don't dring flamers/drop pod sternguard/other things that ignore cover. Since these are appearing everywhere now....
Dire Avengers - brilliant when in range and used in conjunction with doom. Without a farseer casting doom, they don't do anywhere near enough damage. Like most eldar units they can't take a punch.

Our fast attack slots?
Warp spiders are ok but expensive, Shining spears were always laughable and swooping hawks are an aquired taste.
Unitl FW nightwings are used.(which I need to do - the disapointing part is they are £68 pounds each - the de flier is £27.50 - which makes converting some de fliers into nightwings the only sane choice. I wanted to try to stay 'pure' craftworld for the aesthetic but it's either buy 2 razorwings for less than the price of one nightwing or spend £136.)
Vypers are very fast, but very flimsy.

In our heavy support slots, Falcons and prisms die relatively easy now, especially since hull points were shoehorned in, wraithlords are great against some armies, but poisoned weapons laugh at them. Snipers love them. Our support weapons aren't great. The vibro cannon was hilarious until the 'no shooting flyers faq nerf' (although I do admit I was expecting that and when I bought support weapons, I made D-cannons as I didn't believe for a second that the faq nerf for them was anything but a certainty), the d-cannon is lethal within 24" (laughably bad range for a support weapon) and no one normally even remembers the shadow weaver.
War Walkers with scatter lasers are an autotake for a lot of people.
The Night spinner was a W/D update and I've no idea where to get the rules from anymore and it's already in a slot which is hideously over populated with 'best of the rest' choices.

Which leaves forge world. Which I see a lot these days for eldar armies. With all the arguments using forgeworld entails.

It forced me to boil down my army to (unless I'm messing about with themed army lists)

Farseers/FW Wraithseer (+phoenix with useful USR/avatar in 2000pts+)
Harlequins
Fire dragons
Wraithguard/rangers and jetbikes for troops
Warp spiders/hawk (maybe) Obiligatory FW night wings
Wraithlords/War walkers for HS.
This is when my opponants have told me eldar are overpowered - when I've boiled off all the chaff from the dex, I'm left with a very specific army which only fights in one way and can STILL be easily countered - Drop pods/dreadnought drop pods/flamers/poisoned weapons/anything that ignores cover.

If you don't spam those, then the game can be good fun.

Hopefully, the rumours of a new flier will actually turn out to be true and it may be a useful unit. Because at the moment, without forgeworld or allies we have no realistic flyer defence. But with rumours of no more W/D rules updates I won't hold my breath.

But at the end of all of it, I still will play my eldar. I've had to change my style to mainly shooting, and I can't do the banshee/dragon in wave serpent combo anymore, but we still are able to win games. Just about.
/Rant.

All I want from the new 'dex is a 24" gun for troops and an assault vehicle. I'll compete a lot better then. Oh, and some eldar structure/defence type things. I would love an aegis, but I don't want an imperial one.
And wishlisting - make my vehicles BS4

 Ravenous D wrote:
Wave serpents were the last bastion of hope and 6th made them laughably easy to kill. It went from needing 36 krak grenade attacks to kill it down to 9.

Ummm...yeah and don't you think that the previous need of 36 krak grenade hits might have just been more than a little excessive? Sorry that the wave serpent has been brought back into some part of realistic territory...

Yep Eldar vehicles can no longer shrug off ludicrous amounts of fire anymore. No other armies could ever do that to the extreme level of the Eldar. Holofields made trying to pop otherwise weakly armored eldar tanks into a game long battle of continuing frustration. It is about time that they were toned down.

Skriker

 Skriker wrote:
It is about time that they were toned down.

Toned down yes, but not battered down. And stamped on.

We lack on skimmers
Assault ramps.
No fire points.
No psychic powers cast while in them (which is worse than all the other vehicles in the game)
I agree holofields were annoying, but they used the nerf bat too much and now I don't believe GW will sell many tanks for the eldar.
Which, in the next 'dex they could easily overcompensate on to sell more again. then we go round again....

 Skriker wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
Wave serpents were the last bastion of hope and 6th made them laughably easy to kill. It went from needing 36 krak grenade attacks to kill it down to 9.

Ummm...yeah and don't you think that the previous need of 36 krak grenade hits might have just been more than a little excessive? Sorry that the wave serpent has been brought back into some part of realistic territory...

Yep Eldar vehicles can no longer shrug off ludicrous amounts of fire anymore. No other armies could ever do that to the extreme level of the Eldar. Holofields made trying to pop otherwise weakly armored eldar tanks into a game long battle of continuing frustration. It is about time that they were toned down.

Skriker

It was the same for a rhino or razorback, that was 75-90pts less. Only difference was only being able to fit in 5 or 6 wave serpents while marines could easily do 10+ vehicles in 1 army.

I know they aren't very good, but can you elaborate the "Aquired taste" on the swooping hawks?

Also, I did the math, and If a marine squad is 6, the shining spears can kill them without taking a single casualty except by overwatch. so 12 shots, 8 hit, 2.66 get through armor, and they are strength 4(?) so they wound about 1.33, but thats not accounting for the aprox 2 dead space marines from a round of shooting before assualt, so its more like 1.33*4/6 or about .89
Im probably wrong though, because the close combat weapons rules make no sense to me, if you use a CCW, do all your attacks gain the stats?

Eldar are another classic example of a army that isn't underpowered, but looks that way because of all the other armies that are overpowered and more cost efficient for what they get on the battlefield.

A bunch of their stuff that was over-costed in the 3e codex got dropped in price for the current codex, and they got some new stuff. And in true GW fashion, all the other armies got the same friggin' treatment, which kept all the comparisons with other forces that made the 3e codex bad, completely the same......

Some people like Hawks - I'm not a fan but they can be useful. They have haywire grenades which can total vehicles really quickly. They have lasblasters which have a 24" range. I don't like the cost in points compared to the damage output. Mine never do anything - beneath is a better post for the pro's of hawks.

warpspider89 wrote:

The SHs serve three purposes: anti-light infantry, anti-tank (their average threat range for a charge on a vehicle, using their jetpacks in the movement phase, is about 21 inches with fleet), and to score line breaker at the end of the game.

Shining Spears are 35pts per model.so it's 175 for the squad. Add the exarch and his powers and it's more like 230 points for the squad. For that many points, I want more than 5 3+ models. Skilled rider gives them a 3+ cover save from turbo boosting. They still won't survive a round of shooting from 10 marines. They have laser lances, which are st6 on the charge at ap3. After that they go to ap4. Ultimately, they just cost too much to be worth it.
The only time I'd take them is if I was doing a themed list - and then I'd use them to counter charge but thats about it.

 Skriker wrote:

It is about time that they were toned down.

This is what frustrates me to no end about people's perception of the falcon... all they see is "It's the hardest unit is the game to kill!!!1!11!" and therefore think its the end all be all of vehicles. Well guess what. Of all those supposedly impossible to kill Falcons, how many units did you actually loose to it? I can't tell you how many times I was stun locked after the first turn, never getting to fire a shot. A 175s that did practically nothing except live and tank shock like mad because there was nothing else it could do. Hell, I used it more as a guided missile than a gun ship. (Which has been taken away as well I might add)

At least now I get a jink save. Still a mediocre gunboat for the cost (at BS3)

PredaKhaine wrote:
Some people like Hawks - I'm not a fan but they can be useful. They have haywire grenades which can total vehicles really quickly. They have lasblasters which have a 24" range. I don't like the cost in points compared to the damage output. Mine never do anything - beneath is a better post for the pro's of hawks.

warpspider89 wrote:

The SHs serve three purposes: anti-light infantry, anti-tank (their average threat range for a charge on a vehicle, using their jetpacks in the movement phase, is about 21 inches with fleet), and to score line breaker at the end of the game.

Shining Spears are 35pts per model.so it's 175 for the squad. Add the exarch and his powers and it's more like 230 points for the squad. For that many points, I want more than 5 3+ models. Skilled rider gives them a 3+ cover save from turbo boosting. They still won't survive a round of shooting from 10 marines. They have laser lances, which are st6 on the charge at ap3. After that they go to ap4. Ultimately, they just cost too much to be worth it.
The only time I'd take them is if I was doing a themed list - and then I'd use them to counter charge but thats about it.

I agree with most of what you are saying here, but they are always AP 3, due to their special rules which make them count as the generic weapon. Go to the power weapons section of the BRB for more information.

I might give them another shot...

I like them as a unit, they just exemplify high cost and low model count.

PredaKhaine wrote:
Check the rules for the power lance.
Charging into combat is +1 Str and Ap3.
After that it's base str and ap4.

It means withdraw is an autotake. And if the exarch dies in a challenge, you can no longer run away either, so you sit with jetbikes in cc until they're dead.

I like them as a unit, they just exemplify high cost and low model count.

I recommend double checking the rules in Codex: Eldar for Laser Lances, which are what Eldar Shining Spears use. They have different rules from the standard BRB power lances, namely, that they attack STR 6 on the charge, in addition to their shooting attack, which regular power lances do not receive.

I am unfamiliar with how 6e works because I don't have the rulebook, but in the older editions, it seemed the viable tactic of the Shining Spears was to move within charge range of the enemy unit, and then fire all the unit's Shuriken catapults, including a Shuriken Cannon if the Exarch has one. Then perform a charge, with the Spears giving them S6 power weapons for the first turn with a high initiative.

Then, providing that they are still alive, use the Exarch's power to Hit and Run to get out of contact at the end of the combat phase (3D6, at least in 4th edition, so up to 18 inches).

Now, it seems there are additional benefits and downsides to this tactic due to the new parts of 6e rules (Hammer of Wrath benefiting, but then having a downside of Overwatch shooting against the Shining Spears), but I don't know for sure on those because I don't currently play with 6e rules.

Shining Spears also have the benefit of their Spears being Lance Weapons, in a pinch, though horribly short ranged.

Wave serpents and Fire Prisms were hard to kill because they were literally the only armor the army gets. a 150 point vehicle for SM gets you a fully decked out pred and still some to spare. 150 in guard gets you a Russ. For the cost of a falcon decked out you can almost get a stormraven. Yeah, they were hard to kill, but that was their selling point. Anything could hurt them, not much could kill them, but at the same time they couldnt put out much damage either. Also, skimmers should have kept at least hit on 5s in melee. You cant easily hit a vehicle that hovers and moves as fast as a flier. No, its not unrealistic to need 36 grenades to hit a vehicle in those circumstances, especially since melee attacks are supposed to be hitting weak points which seems impossible for a vehicle moving that fast.


Shining Spears do NOT have power weapons after the charge round. Re-read Laser Lance. It counts as a power weapon on the turn they assault, giving them AP3 on the assault and AP- afterwards. With 1A base, 1 weapon, and challenges easily able to mitigate the damage from the small squad the exarch occupies, shining spears are STILL worthless, as they have been since... well forever. They were rarely used as a necessity due to the lack of weapons Sam Han lists had. 35 points for a marine defensive stat in 4th was still prohibitive. They didnt progressively get worse, they just were always bad.


PS, S6 lance weaponry is a joke. OOH, we have a 1 shot 6" range weapon that can glance on a 6. Even the S8 version is still AP4 and 1 shot at 6" on 1 model.

I still play.

Everyone else has shelved their space elves and taken up Marines, IG or Necrons in my shop. I refuse to because I can still fight. GW insists on silly FAQs, but that does not change my mentality. The Eldar are in decline both fluffwise and tabletop. I would rather go down shurikens blazing than trade in for a Marines +1 codex.

The DA are still a solid choice, mass precision fire from Rangers are also nasty. The WW and Reapers as always shine bright. Really the only difficulty I have is fighting Fliers, though WW with EML's and guide have done ok against them. I can still murder their infantry. I am not saying all is roses, but this is the 41st millennium so get used to it, embrace the despair and choke slam its ass. I think so many players give up precisely because the internet tells them too. Not everyone who plays surfs these forums and just because the "accepted" web list does not work does not mean you can not win. Deployment, Army list and luck are the only things that matter. It is all about changing the game and making your opponent react to you, not vice versa. In the last tourney I was in, I sometimes had to resort to bizarre tactics, but they worked because my opponents were caught with their pants down. Not many expect spandex wearing space clowns to fix bayonets and charge Death Company, but it worked and I was promptly told that shimmershield is broken. As a side note, having a GK player rage quit on you after your runes blew up his Grand Master's head is simply priceless.

Eldar are not worthless, they just require a different approach. Maybe my game area is weird or an outlier in the spectrum of gaming, but here at least my Eldar make the Mon Keigh bleed.

 Tusken Sith Lord wrote:
I still play.

Everyone else has shelved their space elves and taken up Marines, IG or Necrons in my shop. I refuse to because I can still fight. GW insists on silly FAQs, but that does not change my mentality. The Eldar are in decline both fluffwise and tabletop. I would rather go down shurikens blazing than trade in for a Marines +1 codex.

The DA are still a solid choice, mass precision fire from Rangers are also nasty. The WW and Reapers as always shine bright. Really the only difficulty I have is fighting Fliers, though WW with EML's and guide have done ok against them. I can still murder their infantry. I am not saying all is roses, but this is the 41st millennium so get used to it, embrace the despair and choke slam its ass. I think so many players give up precisely because the internet tells them too. Not everyone who plays surfs these forums and just because the "accepted" web list does not work does not mean you can not win. Deployment, Army list and luck are the only things that matter. It is all about changing the game and making your opponent react to you, not vice versa. In the last tourney I was in, I sometimes had to resort to bizarre tactics, but they worked because my opponents were caught with their pants down. Not many expect spandex wearing space clowns to fix bayonets and charge Death Company, but it worked and I was promptly told that shimmershield is broken. As a side note, having a GK player rage quit on you after your runes blew up his Grand Master's head is simply priceless.

Eldar are not worthless, they just require a different approach. Maybe my game area is weird or an outlier in the spectrum of gaming, but here at least my Eldar make the Mon Keigh bleed.

I am with you all the way fellow child of the Craftworld. All is not lost! Our decimated race simply cannot beat our opponents at their own game. Perhaps we could when the Empire was strong but that time has passed. Now we must force them to face us on our terms on the battlefield; their every move must transition them from disadvantaged situation to disadvantaged situation.

Seriously though, by playing Eldar in "dickish ways", like seriously we aren't space marines so why play like we are, I've had more wins from people giving up against my force because I broke their moral than their armies straight up losing. I wasn't being cruel, manipulative (outside of the tactical positioning of models), or mean. I just filled them with doubt by forcing them to make hard decisions at every turn until it got to them. That's the Path of the Eldar. If you play this army its the path you walk. If you want something that wins through force alone there are much better armies. I'm looking at you IG (and other armies).

zephoid wrote:
Shining Spears do NOT have power weapons after the charge round. Re-read Laser Lance. It counts as a power weapon on the turn they assault, giving them AP3 on the assault and AP- afterwards. With 1A base, 1 weapon, and challenges easily able to mitigate the damage from the small squad the exarch occupies, shining spears are STILL worthless, as they have been since... well forever. They were rarely used as a necessity due to the lack of weapons Sam Han lists had. 35 points for a marine defensive stat in 4th was still prohibitive. They didnt progressively get worse, they just were always bad.

Had a look at the codex when I got home last night - yeah, you're completely right. Must've had a bit of a moment. The line in the codex reads something like "on a turn in which they initiate a charge/cc". So it's not even power weapons if they get charged. And if you charge it lasts for a turn. It would've been nice to be wrong, but they still are just not good.

Other than losses, tears, boredom and eventual death there's no reason to ever stop playing Eldar 40k.
There's still no way I'm putting my eldar down. Got myself 2 razorwings last night - now to make nightwings.
Once this is done, bring back those annoying imperial planes!
We'll see what happens now..

 Ravenous D wrote:
It was the same for a rhino or razorback, that was 75-90pts less. Only difference was only being able to fit in 5 or 6 wave serpents while marines could easily do 10+ vehicles in 1 army.

When did Rhinos and razorbacks have holofields that made them near impossible to take out?

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PredaKhaine wrote:
We lack on skimmers
Assault ramps.
No fire points.
No psychic powers cast while in them (which is worse than all the other vehicles in the game)
I agree holofields were annoying, but they used the nerf bat too much and now I don't believe GW will sell many tanks for the eldar.
Which, in the next 'dex they could easily overcompensate on to sell more again. then we go round again....

How do you lack skimmers? Most every eldar vehicle is a skimmer unless they somehow changed in that in the FAQ and if so what did they change them to since they have no wheels or anything of that nature?
Few vehicles have assault ramps. The most common space marine transport, the rhino, isn't even an assault vehicle. No fire points is kind of dumb in my book, but looking at the models, where would you shoot out of anyway? As for not casting psychic powers I thought that was a blanket rule for vehicles and psykers, not just against Eldar. Just because eldar players can't seem to rely on their troops to get the job done and *have* to use fortune and doom all the time doesn't make it a specific eldar nerf. Some people will still buy tanks because they like them and want to use them despite the rules no longer being super, duper awesome for them. Not everyone plays WAAC or even worries about it. No matter what changes are made to the CSM codex I still use all of my minis with each new version, as long as they are still allowed by the codex. I ultimately don't really care if the rules supposedly make the unit "completely unusable and a total waste of points" because usually that is an over exaggeration by the person making the claim and I still enjoy games where such pointless loser units are involved.

Skriker

 Skriker wrote:


When did Rhinos and razorbacks have holofields that made them near impossible to take out?

How do you lack skimmers? Most every eldar vehicle is a skimmer unless they somehow changed in that in the FAQ and if so what did they change them to since they have no wheels or anything of that nature?
Few vehicles have assault ramps. The most common space marine transport, the rhino, isn't even an assault vehicle. No fire points is kind of dumb in my book, but looking at the models, where would you shoot out of anyway? As for not casting psychic powers I thought that was a blanket rule for vehicles and psykers, not just against Eldar. Just because eldar players can't seem to rely on their troops to get the job done and *have* to use fortune and doom all the time doesn't make it a specific eldar nerf. Some people will still buy tanks because they like them and want to use them despite the rules no longer being super, duper awesome for them. Not everyone plays WAAC or even worries about it. No matter what changes are made to the CSM codex I still use all of my minis with each new version, as long as they are still allowed by the codex. I ultimately don't really care if the rules supposedly make the unit "completely unusable and a total waste of points" because usually that is an over exaggeration by the person making the claim and I still enjoy games where such pointless loser units are involved.

Skriker

Sorry - that was supposed to read
Things we lack on skimmers.

A rhino is about 20pts?
A Wave Serpent is 100ish?
Wave serpents NEVER got holofields. Not once - I've checked 2nd to 4th ed codex's. As I said in the other thread, if you fought one with holofields, you got cheated.

Everyone else can cast witchfire out of a tank and blessings while embarked. We now cannot because of the faq. Marines have access to assault vehicles and flyers. We have no assault vehicles or fliers (bar forgeworld for the fliers)
Marines are able to survive a rhino explosion by having T4 and a 3+. We do not survive our tank explosions, nor can we take troops for assualt that will survive without being in a tank. Nor can we charge out of a skimmer (unlike land raiders and storm ravens)
I agree with you on using mini's I like - In my last game I used both striking scorpions and howling banshees, squad that aren't 'good' in the current meta - I beat DA. It was fun.

It used to be that if a vehicle moved, it was very hard to hit - thats where the 36 krak grenades to take out a vehicle came from. Rhino's and razorbacks were able to use that rule, just the same as skimmers.
I have never been WAAC either - I only play for fun.

Why do you hate the skimmer tanks sooo much?
They were never that good.

PredaKhaine wrote:
This is when my opponants have told me eldar are overpowered -

Very nice unit by unit breakdown Pred. Yes eldar have taken a hit from the new rules and GW trying to press them into the new mold. I will never call Eldar overpowered these days. Even in the days of eldar dominance years ago I never had a problem dealing with them. With such specialized troops it was always easy to take them out of their element and deal with them. Assaulting fire dragons and dark reapers and shooting the heck out of banshees, scorpions and harlies.

If I was running the show at GW I would have Eldar high on the list for a new codex, but who knows what the yahoos really calling the shots will do with them. I've never understood the way they just let some armies languish forever without a codex update. Each time a new rules version comes out there *should* be a detailed and spelled out codex release order that includes *ALL* existing force codecies, most smartly with those that had the most recent update being listed last. When called on the mat for codecies being left in the dust GW staff have talked about not having someone who is inspired to write a new version of a codex so it waits for that to happen. That is some serious BS right there. Sorry, no one here likes Tau or has any ideas for them so we just aren't going to do anything.

Given the DV box contents I expect Chaos and Dark Angels to be first in release this time around, in whichever order, but would expect Tau and Eldar to be the next two books in line given how old they both are. If they aren't I would be pretty cranky if I played either of those armies. I had an eldar army for sometime, but after so many years of playing chaos space marines I just couldn't adapt to the way eldar played, or their different stat line and weapons. Always took too many losses that just hurt too much as eldar. Making those mistakes while playing my renegades isn't as hurtful since I get so bloody many of them as the eldar were pricier. So I eventually sold off all my eldar.

Skriker

Im betting on Eldar, Black Templar and Tau next. Although Ive been hearing some noise about Daemons.

The other elephant in the room with Shining Spears is that the poor dudes DO NOT HAVE GRENADES. This means that if- god forbid- those marines you want to shoot and charge are sitting in some forests or whatever. They go first. Truthfully the only CC units Eldar have that have grenades are Harlequins, and Scorpions (Hawks have them as well I guess, but they suck in assault, and Banshees don't care with I10 on the charge).

The point is though, that generally your Shining Spears will be going last when they charge. Which sucks, at least your s3 ap- hammer of wrath attacks still go off

I'm really looking forward to the new codex despite common sense telling me - it'll be the same. some new good units, a new fluffy choice which sucks, a lick of paint, some copy/paste fluff and a price hike.
I really want the new 'dex to go for balance, cos at the moment with my eldar it's either smash or be smashed. It just doesn't make for a fun game.

I use chaos to let my hair down in 40k - I take 'silly' choices like possessed. Not really comp, but great fun.
With my chaos, I tried the Juggernought Lord with the axe of blind fury. He smashed everything he charged. I'm not going to use him again as it made the game a lot less fun. I use Lucius instead now and it's so much more fun, going into a challenge and not knowing the outcome. (His best fight so far was corbulo - with a 2+fnp. Very cinematic as he kept hacking lumps out of corbulo, but corbulo just completely refused to go down)

My philosophy with 40k is I don't care whether I win or lose as long as it's fun. I find close games are more fun as you don't know the outcome till the end.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 akaean wrote:

The point is though, that generally your Shining Spears will be going last when they charge. Which sucks, at least your s3 ap- hammer of wrath attacks still go off

Lol - we're saved!

SaganGree wrote:
This is what frustrates me to no end about people's perception of the falcon... all they see is "It's the hardest unit is the game to kill!!!1!11!" and therefore think its the end all be all of vehicles. Well guess what. Of all those supposedly impossible to kill Falcons, how many units did you actually loose to it? I can't tell you how many times I was stun locked after the first turn, never getting to fire a shot. A 175s that did practically nothing except live and tank shock like mad because there was nothing else it could do. Hell, I used it more as a guided missile than a gun ship. (Which has been taken away as well I might add)

At least now I get a jink save. Still a mediocre gunboat for the cost (at BS3)

Funny, but I owned and played eldar too, so my perspective comes from *both* sides of the table. As an opponent it was frustrating to continually waste the same heavy weapons on the same target over and over and over each turn. It just got irritating and frustrating. As an eldar player while my falcon might have been in stun lock, my war walkers and other light stuff were flooding the table and wiping out my opponents troops. If they finally gave up on the falcon and started shooting the other stuff that would then mean the falcon could do whatever it wanted for a while. It just isn't fun to keep shooting the same target multipl times every turn and never destroy it. It is one thing if you just roll poorly on the vehicle damage table all the time, but another when the destroyed vehicle result is almost never available to you thanks to the holofields. Holofields still take away the ability of an enemy to instakill the tank in question, so are *still* useful in that regard. It just is no longer an unlimited shot bouncer like it used to be thanks to the addition of hull points. I used to benefit greatly from one of my regular opponents being unable to roll anything over a 2 on the vehicle damage chart against my daemon possessed vehicles. Pretty much made them invincible, but now no matter what he rolls, after 4 hits my Plague Hulk is dead and gone, combine that with the fact that I no longer "automatically" ignore those shaken and stunned results and my daemon possessed walkers got nerfed to. Only difference is that I just accept it and continue playing within the new paradigm instead of acting like GW personally screwed me over with their spiteful rules changes.

I have to admit that some of the rules changes they made this time around actually do address a lot of complaints I have heard from players in the past: Assaults from vehicles too easy and plentiful; vehicles being too hard to deal with no matter how many times they were hit; eldar holofields making the previous situation even worse. The have actually be dealt with in this new edition. I am curious if that was intentional on GW's part or purely accidental. Hard to tell with them sometimes.

Skriker

PredaKhaine wrote:


Phoenix Lords have finally become good (imo) as a 2+ now actually means something now. One for the fans though. And now we have the fun of USR's interacting in weird ways and producing strange combinations of rules. And no one knows if we're supposed to be able to do what we appear to be able to, which causes mid game arguments.
And they are still expensive.

Fuegan is less expensive than Eldrad. Puts things into perspective doesn'it? Put him in a squad of Harlies with a Shadowseer and cheap Fortune-seer shove everything down your opponent's throat witha borrowed Wave Serpent.

PredaKhaine wrote:

Our fast attack slots?
Warp spiders are ok but expensive, Shining spears were always laughable and swooping hawks are an aquired taste.
Unitl FW nightwings are used.(which I need to do - the disapointing part is they are £68 pounds each - the de flier is £27.50 - which makes converting some de fliers into nightwings the only sane choice. I wanted to try to stay 'pure' craftworld for the aesthetic but it's either buy 2 razorwings for less than the price of one nightwing or spend £136.)
Vypers are very fast, but very flimsy.

Nevermind the Vypers, if you are open to FW, look into Hornets. It's a cross between a Vyper that does not suck and a War Walker.

PredaKhaine wrote:

In our heavy support slots, Falcons and prisms die relatively easy now, especially since hull points were shoehorned in, wraithlords are great against some armies, but poisoned weapons laugh at them. Snipers love them. Our support weapons aren't great. The vibro cannon was hilarious until the 'no shooting flyers faq nerf' (although I do admit I was expecting that and when I bought support weapons, I made D-cannons as I didn't believe for a second that the faq nerf for them was anything but a certainty), the d-cannon is lethal within 24" (laughably bad range for a support weapon) and no one normally even remembers the shadow weaver.
War Walkers with scatter lasers are an autotake for a lot of people.
The Night spinner was a W/D update and I've no idea where to get the rules from anymore and it's already in a slot which is hideously over populated with 'best of the rest' choices.

Here are the rules for Night Spinner, straight from GW: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=cat440244a&aId=15100016a

PredaKhaine wrote:

Which leaves forge world. Which I see a lot these days for eldar armies. With all the arguments using forgeworld entails.

Two words...Warp Hunter. You will never even look at a Fire Prism ever again.

I think 6th really helped my Eldar. I play an all shooty foot list with Eldrad and the avatar. Lots of bodies and S6 shots. Still gives my highly competitive group problems.

PredaKhaine wrote:
Sorry - that was supposed to read
Things we lack on skimmers.

Everyone else can cast witchfire out of a tank and blessings while embarked. We now cannot because of the faq. Marines have access to assault vehicles and flyers. We have no assault vehicles or fliers (bar forgeworld for the fliers)
Why do you hate the skimmer tanks sooo much?
They were never that good.

Gotcha on the "on skimmers"

Ah didn't realize that on the psychics. As I said I thought that was everyone, but haven't done much with psychic powers since they came back. Thanks for the clarification.

I don't hate skimmer tanks at all. It is the holofields that always annoyed me. I benefited from them when I played eldar, but when not playing eldar they were just very annoying. If I really hate anything about it is some eldar players who seem to think that their tanks *should* be impossible to kill or that makes them totally useless which is just not true. It doesn't help that the codex is so old and prices are still so high either. The Tau get nailed with that too. Crisis suits are ludicrously expensive for something that has less survivability than an assault marine and gets a lower state line, the ability to jump back to cover and some extra weapons to compensate for it. Might find them pretty cool at maybe half the price. A lot of this stuff comes in from GW's inability to even consider balancing the point costs of forces in the game. They seem incapable of doing it over a series of Marine codecies that would be super simple to coordinate so it should come as no surprise that the xenos books would be all over the place and over costed on things.

Might make the pain a little easier to bear right now if the eldar faq included a line that said to halve all vehicle prices in the codex. Vehicles in general have become much easier to kill, it just seems to be the eldar players that are complaining the most about it.

Skriker

What could also help the eldar are some vehicle aspects. Lets face it the aspect warriors came out in RT when the game was basically an infantry game. With all the vehicles now they should introduce rules for vehicle aspects.

 Andrew1975 wrote:
What could also help the eldar are some vehicle aspects. Lets face it the aspect warriors came out in RT when the game was basically an infantry game. With all the vehicles now they should introduce rules for vehicle aspects.

Lots of cool things that could be done with the eldar...would be nice if they would actually do *something*. Eldar have been a mainstay of the 40k universe from the beginning and it is sad that their codex is so far out of date.

Skriker