Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

There are also the ether crystals to consider if a flyer does deep strike that close to one. I personally don't see the ether crystals or the "Arc" of the T. Destructor operating differently in that they aren't specifically shooting attacks themselves and they just cause X amount of hits at a STR and AP denoted by the rule. "Arc" is only specific to the tesla destructor because it's the only weapon that has it, but it's still a special rule and not a weapon itself (and why I feel that FAQ entry does not apply to Arc or Lord of the Storm). "Arc" could, theoretically, be on any (future) weapon that GW or FW decided it to be on.

tgf wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
Yup. It's pretty similar to Imo's lightning. It's an effect which is not itself a shooting attack, but which causes "hits" of a specified Strength and AP. The FAQ ruling on zooming flyers & swooping FMCs says that nothing can hit them that isn't Snap Shooting. So both Tesla Destructor arcs and Imo's lightning are ruled out.

I thought imo and njal could hit flyers? We have always allowed lightning and tornado to hit flyers, they are not shooting attacks and are not bound by hard to hit.

I thought so too, until a few people at tournaments disagreed with me, and we went over the FAQ carefully. The wording of the FAQ is broad, and specifically prevents hits; not just hits from shooting attacks.

 Budikah wrote:
1. There are only going to be a few instances when the Arc will even reach the flyer.

I run into it pretty regularly since I started using allied Night Scythes. Because the TL Tesla Destructor has a 24" range, in the second turn of firing it at a given unit, if you Zoomed your minimum 18", you're very often within 6" of the targeted unit (at least some of its models). Even measuring model to hull.

 Budikah wrote:
12. It's a characteristic of the weapon - not an attack on it's own. It's just a chance for another effect to go off on the roll of a 6.

So, granted it isn't "snap fired" - but it still only hits on a 6 which is the same chance you would have otherwise if it had been snap fired. I don't see why Imho's lightening wouldn't hit it either. This is a case where I'd say the rules in the codex would supersede the BRB on a logical and written level.

The whole case in point being that the Arc/Imho's lightening are NOT shooting attacks but rather special rules/effects in play via two special mechanics.

I hear you, and that makes logical sense to me too. But it would also make logical sense for darn Seeker Missiles to get to hit on a 2+ after a Marker Light gets its 6 to hit. And GW didn't allow that either. The FAQ ruling's wording is quite broad and it presently extends to anything which inflicts "hits", whether it's a shooting attack or not. GW clearly doesn't want anything hitting Flyers without Snap Firing or having Skyfire.

(mostly rhetorical) Questions:

Q: Can the tesla Destructor be snap fired, and if so does it retain the Arc property?
A: Yes.
"Q: When making Snap Shots, do weapons with a special rule or effect that only applies on To Hit rolls of a 6 retain these abilities? For example Necron Tesla weapons? (p13)
A: Yes."

Q: Are weapons/shots which can be/are snap fired allowed to hit fliers automatically?
A: Yes
"Q: Does a weapon that hits automatically, still hit automatically when making a Snap Shot? (p13)
A: Yes."

Is Arc a property of the weapon, as opposed to a distinct special ability, psyker power, or what have you? (this thread has wandered considerably)
A: Yes

Why on earth are we still trying to figure out if it can hit fliers or not given the above?

 Neorealist wrote:
(mostly rhetorical) Questions:

Q: Can the tesla Destructor be snap fired, and if so does it retain the Arc property?
A: Yes.
"Q: When making Snap Shots, do weapons with a special rule or effect that only applies on To Hit rolls of a 6 retain these abilities? For example Necron Tesla weapons? (p13)
A: Yes."

Q: Are weapons/shots which can be/are snap fired allowed to hit fliers automatically?
A: Yes
"Q: Does a weapon that hits automatically, still hit automatically when making a Snap Shot? (p13)
A: Yes."

Is Arc a property of the weapon, as opposed to a distinct special ability, psyker power, or what have you? (this thread has wandered considerably)
A: Yes

Why on earth are we still trying to figure out if it can hit fliers or not given the above?

You quoted the wrong question for your second point.

Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas.

I underlined the important bits.

If you would kindly refrain from mixing your own answers in with GW's, it might help prevent confusion.

FAQ wrote:Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, [i]any attacks that use blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them.[/b] This includes weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and novas.

The bit in yellow is the part which prevents Tesla arcs from bouncing onto a Zooming Flyer or Swooping FMC.

Since this thread and the Weidboy one are basically discussing the exact same thing, do we really need two of them?

I'm leaving them for now, as they hinge on different parts of the FAQ ruling.

 Mannahnin wrote:
If you would kindly refrain from mixing your own answers in with GW's, it might help prevent confusion.

FAQ wrote:Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, [i]any attacks that use blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them.[/b] This includes weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and novas.

The bit in yellow is the part which prevents Tesla arcs from bouncing onto a Zooming Flyer or Swooping FMC.

That part of the FAQ is only referencing Weapons that don't need to roll to hit, these are not weapons but are special rules that are in question.

Otherwise if only snap shots could hit flyers and FMC then they could never be the target of beneficial abilities as well.

 Neorealist wrote:
(mostly rhetorical) Questions:

Q: Can the tesla Destructor be snap fired, and if so does it retain the Arc property?
A: Yes.
"Q: When making Snap Shots, do weapons with a special rule or effect that only applies on To Hit rolls of a 6 retain these abilities? For example Necron Tesla weapons? (p13)
A: Yes."

This is referring to getting 2 extra dice when shooting tesla weapons and rolling a 6. Has no bearing on whether the arc can hit the flyers or not.

Tomb King wrote:This is referring to getting 2 extra dice when shooting tesla weapons and rolling a 6. Has no bearing on whether the arc can hit the flyers or not.

I addressed that in the second quote, right below the one you apparently stopped reading at...

Happyjew wrote:[i]I underlined the important bits.

Are you trying to imply the Tesla Destructor doesn't roll to hit, or that the Arc is a seperate effect from the weapon itself? Both of which are incorrect, but i'd like to verify which so i can debate appropriately.

Actually I'm stating that attacks that do not roll to hit cannot target flyers, contrary to your claim that things that hit automatically can hit a Flyer (without Skyfire of course).

Happyjew wrote:Actually I'm stating that attacks that do not roll to hit cannot target flyers, contrary to your claim that things that hit automatically can hit a Flyer (without Skyfire of course).

Ah good. To that i say; The Tesla Destructor 'does' roll to hit and furthermore can be fired as a snapshot just fine.

 Neorealist wrote:

Happyjew wrote:Actually I'm stating that attacks that do not roll to hit cannot target flyers, contrary to your claim that things that hit automatically can hit a Flyer (without Skyfire of course).

Ah good. To that i say; The Tesla Destructor 'does' roll to hit and furthermore can be fired as a snapshot just fine.

Agreed. I think the disagreement is on whether or not the "arc" is an attack or not. You do not see it as an attack and thus is able to effect Flyers just fine (of course then we get back into the whole if it is not an attack you cannot add strength to armour pen). The other side sees it as an attack (especially since it has a profile of sorts) and as such since the Arc is similar to Imotekh's Lightning cannot affect Flyers. When will GW clarify these things?

It's a property of the weapon and therefore as much of an 'attack' as the weapons' initial shots are; not to mention the extra 'Tesla' hits. (or USRs like 'Melta', 'Armorbane', and the like. )

 Kevin949 wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
If you would kindly refrain from mixing your own answers in with GW's, it might help prevent confusion.

FAQ wrote:Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and novas.

The bit in yellow is the part which prevents Tesla arcs from bouncing onto a Zooming Flyer or Swooping FMC.

That part of the FAQ is only referencing Weapons that don't need to roll to hit, these are not weapons but are special rules that are in question.

No, that's not the case. Maelstroms, novas and beams are not weapons either, yet they too are included in this ruling. Tesla Arcing is an effect which causes hits, and thus it falls under the ruling I've quoted above and the sentence highlighted in yellow.

 Kevin949 wrote:
Otherwise if only snap shots could hit flyers and FMC then they could never be the target of beneficial abilities as well.

Not at all. Because the ruling above forbids "hits", and it forbids them from being targeted by "attacks that use blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or otherwise don’t roll to hit". Neither of which describes any beneficial effects that I can think of.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Neorealist wrote:
It's a property of the weapon and therefore as much of an 'attack' as the weapons' initial shots are; not to mention the extra 'Tesla' hits. (or USRs like 'Melta', 'Armorbane', and the like. )

The Destructor can hit just fine. The extra two "bonus" hits also get to hit, but ONLY because GW specifically FAQ'd that they do. OTOH the "bounce" hits, which result from a Tesla Destructor hitting a unit within 6" of you, do not roll to hit, and they also CAUSE hits, which puts them in the category of things which are not allowed to hit Zooming Flyers or Swooping FMCs.

Mannahnin wrote: The Destructor can hit just fine. The extra two "bonus" hits also get to hit, but ONLY because GW specifically FAQ'd that they do. OTOH the "bounce" hits, which result from a Tesla Destructor hitting a unit within 6" of you, do not roll to hit, and they also CAUSE hits, which puts them in the category of things which are not allowed to hit Zooming Flyers or Swooping FMCs.

This i'd disagree with. The extra hits still hit because they were generated by an attack which is not blocked by the 'Hard-to-Hit' rules, not because there is something specific to tesla that indicates they should hit. The FAQ just references the Tesla ability to indicate a specific example of what they were talking about, not that it is a specific exception to the rule.

four examples for you:
A) I snap-shoot an Heavy (4) weapon at a flier and happen to roll all 6's. Do all 4 hit? how come? (there are 3 additional hits beyond the first one after all)
B) I snap-shoot an Heavy (4) weapon with the 'Melta' USR at a flier and happen to roll all 6's. Do all 4 hit? How come? Does the 'Melta' effect apply to these hits? Why or Why not?
C) I snap-shoot an Heavy (4) weapon with the 'Tesla' USR at a flier and happen to roll all 6's. Do I get 4 hits or 12? How come? Does the 'Tesla' effect apply to these hits? Why or Why not?
D) I snap-shoot an Heavy (4) weapon with the 'Tesla' and 'Arc' USRs at a nearby flier and happen to roll all 6s for the bounce effect. Do i get the 6 hits? Why or why not? Does the 'Arc' effect apply?

Way i see it, folk are trying to treat the Arc like it's an entirely seperate and distinct special ability, when it is obviously a property of the weapon. It's a unique and rules-lengthly property to be sure, but nontheless one found on the weapon itself.

A) Yes, because the weapon Snap-Shot, and thus it was allowed to hit that target.
B) Yes.
C. Yes.
D) Your question seems to misrepresent or indicate that you[re confusing the "bonus hits on a 6" ability of all Tesla weapons with the Arc "bounce" effect of a Tesla Destructor. The Arc doesn't trigger on "to hit" roll of 6 to hit. It triggers if there is a unit within 6" of the unit you hit, and you roll a separate roll of 6 for that effect to cause d6 S5 hits on that other unit, which is not the one you targeted and Snap Shot at. Since the Arc causes hits, but does not roll to hit, it cannot affect that second unit within 6" if that unit is a Zooming Flyer or a Swooping FMC.

Mannahnin wrote:D) Your question seems to misrepresent or indicate that you[re confusing the "bonus hits on a 6" ability of all Tesla weapons with the Arc "bounce" effect of a Tesla Destructor. The Arc doesn't trigger on "to hit" roll of 6 to hit. It triggers if there is a unit within 6" of the unit you hit, and you roll a separate roll of 6 for that effect to cause d6 S5 hits on that other unit, which is not the one you targeted and Snap Shot at. Since the Arc causes hits, but does not roll to hit, it cannot affect that second unit within 6" if that unit is a Zooming Flyer or a Swooping FMC.

I'm not confusing anything (least of all those two rules), i just wanted to be clear on what was generating the initial and subsequent hits in case there was any doubt. For reference the 'Arc' triggers on a single successful hit, not just 6's. In this case though you'd need a 6 to hit anyway, so it's functionally immaterial.

The part of your comment that i've bolded is the incorrect part: The Arc effect doesn't 'cause' anything in and of itself. The weapon does, just as a Melta weapon would roll an additional dice for penetration under certain conditions, or a Poisoned (4) weapon would wound on a 4+, so too would an Arc weapon bounce around and potentially hit other models in addition to it's primary target.

The Arc USR is not a seperate weapon (or other shooting-like ability) from the one shooting it, they are one and the same thing.

Okay, good.

Now, even if I grant that line of reasoning, the second unit is not the one you Snap Shot at, and you did not roll to hit against it. T he FMC/ZF ruling still disallows those Arc hits, because you did not Snap Shoot at that second unit.

 Mannahnin wrote:
Okay, good.

Now, even if I grant that line of reasoning, the second unit is not the one you Snap Shot at, and you did not roll to hit against it. T he FMC/ZF ruling still disallows those Arc hits, because you did not Snap Shoot at that second unit.

Ah, there is that. While you may not have rolled to hit against that specific model, you 'have' rolled to hit with the weapon generating the effect. That is one of the prerequisites for allowing one to hit a flier no?

FAQ wrote:Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures.

The Snap Shots can hit fine. The Arc "bounce" hits are not Snap Shots.

Again, you appear to be indicating one should seperate the 'Arc' USRs effect from the weapons other effects and treat it differently. This is in error (or at least, has no current rules-support)

The model made snapshots with the weapon and it was legal for it to do so within the context of the scenario I posited. Therefore the hits generated by that weapon are legal to be resolved against fliers as per the 'hard to hit' rule; wether or not they exist by virtue of the initial shot(s), the Tesla USR, the Arc USR, or any other effect which increases the amount of hits generated by that weapon.

I believe quite firmly that you are incorrect.

The Snap Shots are permitted to hit the unit that the Tesla Destructor targeted. The Arc hits are NOT snap shots, and hit a different unit by a different means that Snap Shooting. The FAQ is quite clear and categoric that the only means of hitting a ZF/SFMC (aside from Skyfire) is via Snap Shooting. Those Arc hits are not Snap Shots, and they're trying to bounce onto a unit which is not being Snap Shot at.

So far as i've been able to ascertain, the only definition of a 'snap shot' is that the model fires shots with a ballistic skill of one.

In the Arcing scenario, is the model firing the Tesla Destuctor shots with a ballistic skill of 1? If so, what prevents you from resolving 'all' of it's effects (rather than just some of them) vs whatever targets it happens to hit?

Snap Shots are shots which are fired at a BS of 1 due to specific restrictions.

Arc hits are not shots in any sense. Much less snap shots. They are hits generated by another means. All of which are expressly, comprehensively forbidden by that FAQ answer.

 Neorealist wrote:
So far as i've been able to ascertain, the only definition of a 'snap shot' is that the model fires shots with a ballistic skill of one.

In the Arcing scenario, is the model firing the Tesla Destuctor shots with a ballistic skill of 1? If so, what prevents you from resolving 'all' of it's effects (rather than just some of them) vs whatever targets it happens to hit?

So your basing your argument that if the original shots were fired as snap snots then the arc would still work?

Mannahnin wrote: Snap Shots are shots which are fired at a BS of 1 due to specific restrictions.

Arc hits are not shots in any sense. Much less snap shots. They are hits generated by another means. All of which are expressly, comprehensively forbidden by that FAQ answer.

Alrighty then. 2 questions this time:

1) What specific definition of 'shots' are you using for the quoted statement?
2) I do not believe you've addressed my contention that the Arc USR is explicitly an effect of the Tesla Destructor weapon and 'its' shots; not a seperate attack.

Tom King wrote:So your basing your argument that if the original shots were fired as snap snots then the arc would still work?

part of it, yes.

Arc's wording "Once the tesla destructor’s initial shot has been resolved..." So when it's time to roll for the arcs the snap shot of the destructor has already been resolved.

Imo's lightning does hit as far as everyone knows. I don't believe there has been an FAQ prohibiting it.

tgf wrote:
Imo's lightning does hit as far as everyone knows. I don't believe there has been an FAQ prohibiting it.

Does it roll to hit? Does it have an area of effect?