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You could go for a bond ($50 say) that late unexpected arrivals have to hand over to the organisers to be allowed to participate

returned at the end if they stay the distance, but forfited if they leave before the end.

stick it in the rules pack for next time

I see more of a problem with 545...

QFT

Grabbed his army and walked off? Hmm had issues even before he walked in - Could have been 5 wonderfully painted and official Gargants and he still would have walked.

However, can anyone definitvely answer this Q?

Does the definition of model only include plastic, resin or metal?

 Ratius wrote:


However, can anyone definitvely answer this Q?

Does the definition of model only include plastic, resin or metal?

I think it requires detail and painting, which cardstock is capable of being detailed and painted. Papercraft is usually not sturdy enough for high detail or painting and is usually detailed and colored with printing only.

"Rule of Cool" is a fickle bitch sometimes.

nkelsch wrote:
It also sounds like 545 doesn know what apocalypse is about... With people able to field 49 lascannons, stuff is going to blow up fast and furious.

Sure, stuff blows up fast. But even people who understand how Apocalypse works can be justifiably annoyed when the big centerpiece model they spent huge amounts of time and money on gets blown up by someone who spent 15 minutes throwing together a crude proxy model so they could use a powerful game-winning unit. That doesn't justify his general behavior, but he does have a valid point about cardboard "titans".


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 Ratius wrote:
However, can anyone definitvely answer this Q?

Does the definition of model only include plastic, resin or metal?

Either:

1) The official model.

or

2) An equivalent that looks at least as good. If you're capable of scratchbuilding a FW-quality titan out of cardboard then good for you, I'll be happy to play against it. If your "scratchbuild" is really "I want to spam D-weapons but I don't want to spend any money on it" then no, it shouldn't be acceptable.

What material the model is made out of doesn't matter, only the final result is important.


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 Bat Manuel wrote:
Someone put effort into it. They just didn't put massive amounts of money into it.

Hardly. It's completely lacking in detail, and not painted at all. The owner managed to glue some cardboard templates into the correct shape, but it's a pretty low-effort proxy.

 Peregrine wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
It also sounds like 545 doesn know what apocalypse is about... With people able to field 49 lascannons, stuff is going to blow up fast and furious.

Sure, stuff blows up fast. But even people who understand how Apocalypse works can be justifiably annoyed when the big centerpiece model they spent huge amounts of time and money on gets blown up by someone who spent 15 minutes throwing together a crude proxy model so they could use a powerful game-winning unit. That doesn't justify his general behavior, but he does have a valid point about cardboard "titans".

Read the thread again... it took the guy THREE days to build the paper titan. It was not a cheap looking piece of crap. It was a model that people think is a FW model until they look closely at it. The legs, the toes, all the hydraulic tubing etc. looked awesome. the top looks kind of plain and he hasn't finished painting it, but it looks good enough that even 545 was commenting on how good it looked.

This titan has been allowed in our previous Apocalypse game without problems because we are all friends and we understand that feeding your family is more important than stroking GW or FW's ego by dropping a ton of cash for an armless hunk of resin. I'd say the Paper Titan took ten times more effort to create and showed some serious modeling skill. Of course it isn't up to standards of the FW model but it is definately NOT a cheap looking piece of crap.

Having said that, I think that it's just good manners to mind your tongue if you are at someone's event by their good graces. And if you have a problem that nobody else sees as a problem, maybe you should suck it up and just move on. Our game group showed true character by continuing the game and having a great time in spite of 545's antics. nobody in our group is a power gamer. Usually it is your opponent who reminds you that you have an unused ability, or a unit that still needs to fire or whatever...
545 plays the newb killer armies of Blood Angels and Grey Knights. He calls them his "Blood Knights". He usually cant win against our more experienced players even with them trying to help him out, so he has had a problem with everyone in the group. Usually about something ridiculous.

My defense of the Paper Titan as a model comes from the fact that units have been available to play, but GW or FW doesn't have models to represent these units. Scratch building or kit-bashing, I think, should be allowed as a representative model. Quality should be enforced, of course, but I see nothing wrong with a good model being fielded no matter how it was made or purchased.

Of course the Warhound has been available for some time now...

 StormK wrote:
Read the thread again... it took the guy THREE days to build the paper titan. It was not a cheap looking piece of crap. It was a model that people think is a FW model until they look closely at it. The legs, the toes, all the hydraulic tubing etc. looked awesome. the top looks kind of plain and he hasn't finished painting it, but it looks good enough that even 545 was commenting on how good it looked.

Then you must have posted the wrong picture, because the paper titan in the picture you posted doesn't even come close to the FW model. The details are completely missing, and nobody who is even vaguely familiar with the real one could confuse the two, even from across the table.

Also, three days is a joke. Building and painting real titan takes weeks, at minimum. If you're finishing a scratchbuild in three days it's only because you're not even trying to reach an acceptable level of quality.

This titan has been allowed in our previous Apocalypse game without problems because we are all friends and we understand that feeding your family is more important than stroking GW or FW's ego by dropping a ton of cash for an armless hunk of resin.

So fine, play Apocalypse without titans. I don't really see why D-weapon spam is so vital to Apocalypse that you can't have a fun game without titans.

I'd say the Paper Titan took ten times more effort to create and showed some serious modeling skill.

Ten times more effort than what?

My defense of the Paper Titan as a model comes from the fact that units have been available to play, but GW or FW doesn't have models to represent these units. Scratch building or kit-bashing, I think, should be allowed as a representative model. Quality should be enforced, of course, but I see nothing wrong with a good model being fielded no matter how it was made or purchased.

And I'm not disputing that. Materials are irrelevant, if it looks as good as the real model it should be allowed. The problem with the paper titan isn't that it's made out of paper, it's that it's a low-effort proxy that doesn't even come close to the quality of the real model.

Yeah, the paper titan isn't even painted. It fails 'rule of cool' by a wide margin.

I am not saying it is a total throw away... it looks like it is a good start. But simple things like detailing, rivets, trim, symbols, decorations, a good base and so on can turn a spraypanted black paper shell into a real model.

If you spend 3 days on something, why not spend 5 and make it really nice? Why run a race and stop before the finish line?

And Warhounds have been available almost longer than any other titan. They have been 'available' for close to 20 years. Lack of model doesn't justify half-completed or bad models.

But in this situation, it appears as if the event had no requirements as every image has racks of unpainted dudes... so an incomplete warhound is no different than unpainted eldar or primed landraiders... So if there are no standards and everyone was aware of this the you suck it up.

 Peregrine wrote:

 StormK wrote:
Read the thread again... it took the guy THREE days to build the paper titan. It was not a cheap looking piece of crap. It was a model that people think is a FW model until they look closely at it. The legs, the toes, all the hydraulic tubing etc. looked awesome. the top looks kind of plain and he hasn't finished painting it, but it looks good enough that even 545 was commenting on how good it looked.

Then you must have posted the wrong picture, because the paper titan in the picture you posted doesn't even come close to the FW model. The details are completely missing, and nobody who is even vaguely familiar with the real one could confuse the two, even from across the table.

Also, three days is a joke. Building and painting real titan takes weeks, at minimum. If you're finishing a scratchbuild in three days it's only because you're not even trying to reach an acceptable level of quality.

This titan has been allowed in our previous Apocalypse game without problems because we are all friends and we understand that feeding your family is more important than stroking GW or FW's ego by dropping a ton of cash for an armless hunk of resin.

So fine, play Apocalypse without titans. I don't really see why D-weapon spam is so vital to Apocalypse that you can't have a fun game without titans.

I'd say the Paper Titan took ten times more effort to create and showed some serious modeling skill.

Ten times more effort than what?

My defense of the Paper Titan as a model comes from the fact that units have been available to play, but GW or FW doesn't have models to represent these units. Scratch building or kit-bashing, I think, should be allowed as a representative model. Quality should be enforced, of course, but I see nothing wrong with a good model being fielded no matter how it was made or purchased.

And I'm not disputing that. Materials are irrelevant, if it looks as good as the real model it should be allowed. The problem with the paper titan isn't that it's made out of paper, it's that it's a low-effort proxy that doesn't even come close to the quality of the real model.

You know what? I think most people's scratch builds/conversions look like utter crap, but I don't care. They aren't my models and I'm not going to begrudge anyone for using what they want (made out of whatever) even if they don't meet my standards of 'cool.'

Get over yourself.

Make models, play games. Unless you're a purist fanboy, it shouldn't matter if the models on the table are GW or not, as long as everyone knows what they are supposed to be. The belief that gamers should aim to use GW figures in GW games all the time is a nonsense that somehow GW has managed to encourage over the years to the point where people argue about using the 'official' figures in private games. Stop for a moment and think, just how stupid is that? Why should it matter whether your Titan is resin or scratchbuilt from plastic card?

Unless you're going to a GW sponsored event, people should play with armies of their own preference. I don't mean that it's valid to field rubbish, the apocryphal shoe-box land raider, there are plenty of good quality scratchbuilds and conversions that would fail the 'GW percentage test' but should be welcomed onto any right minded battlefield.

White Dwarf has never provided plans for a 40K titan, unless I'm hugely mistaken. WD #53 was well before 40K was even released, and the largest model they did was the baneblade in #132.


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 StormK wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
It also sounds like 545 doesn know what apocalypse is about... With people able to field 49 lascannons, stuff is going to blow up fast and furious.

Sure, stuff blows up fast. But even people who understand how Apocalypse works can be justifiably annoyed when the big centerpiece model they spent huge amounts of time and money on gets blown up by someone who spent 15 minutes throwing together a crude proxy model so they could use a powerful game-winning unit. That doesn't justify his general behavior, but he does have a valid point about cardboard "titans".

This titan has been allowed in our previous Apocalypse game without problems because we are all friends and we understand that feeding your family is more important than stroking GW or FW's ego by dropping a ton of cash for an armless hunk of resin. I'd say the Paper Titan took ten times more effort to create and showed some serious modeling skill. Of course it isn't up to standards of the FW model but it is definately NOT a cheap looking piece of crap.

Try looking at threads following people building a resin titan, you're hugely underestimating the work involved if you think a cardboard titan built in three days requires 'ten times more effort'. FW titans are not like regular plastic kits built out of the box.

Well.
I have a lot of models that would fail the 80% rule. Right now a am sculpting a huge Bloodthirster out of green stuff and milliput.
The head is green stuff over a thundertusk head. Everything else but the feet will be wire and sculpting. I'm making the model to prove to myself that I have talent and for use in big games where number crunching isn't so important.
All of that effort goes to waste if I take it to an official event?

 StormK wrote:
Well.
I have a lot of models that would fail the 80% rule. Right now a am sculpting a huge Bloodthirster out of green stuff and milliput.
The head is green stuff over a thundertusk head. Everything else but the feet will be wire and sculpting. I'm making the model to prove to myself that I have talent and for use in big games where number crunching isn't so important.
All of that effort goes to waste if I take it to an official event?

"Rule of Cool" and "Must be GW parts" are two different standards which have totally different purposes and are not the same. Something can pass "Rule of Cool" but Fail "GW Parts". Something can pass "GW Parts" and fail "Rule of Cool"

If you play in a GW event at a GW store or something with GW organization and prize support, (not many of these exist) then the primary goal of the event is to promote and generate GW sales. This usually means non-GW models are not usually welcome, within reason usually. And as much as people throw up in their mouths over this and recoil in horror, PP events are exactly like this as well. PP has very active Support for prizes and events, and do it to promote sales of their products and most events I have seen require PP models. I see much more leeway at Indy GW events than Indy PP events because most Indy PP events are officially sponsored and run by PP interests. Take the king's coin, do the king's bidding.

"Rule of Cool" is a totally different mechanic for a totally different reason. "Rule of Cool" is usually involved when people make custom models or conversions and then see how appropriate they are for the standards of the event. Better your model looks, the less chance it will be an issue. Also, the better it looks, the more forgiving people will be of Proxies, 'counts as', Non-wysiwyg models.

Your custom models would probably pass Rule of Cool most places as long as it was a finished model. You may get away at GW events because of Rule of Cool and it being 'scratch' and not 3rd party.

Ask your TO, Your mileage may vary.

 StormK wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
It also sounds like 545 doesn know what apocalypse is about... With people able to field 49 lascannons, stuff is going to blow up fast and furious.

Sure, stuff blows up fast. But even people who understand how Apocalypse works can be justifiably annoyed when the big centerpiece model they spent huge amounts of time and money on gets blown up by someone who spent 15 minutes throwing together a crude proxy model so they could use a powerful game-winning unit. That doesn't justify his general behavior, but he does have a valid point about cardboard "titans".

Read the thread again... it took the guy THREE days to build the paper titan. It was not a cheap looking piece of crap. It was a model that people think is a FW model until they look closely at it. The legs, the toes, all the hydraulic tubing etc. looked awesome. the top looks kind of plain and he hasn't finished painting it, but it looks good enough that even 545 was commenting on how good it looked.

Three days is not the basis for allowing something, sadly. Three days is NOTHING when it comes to a Warhound Titan. My rhinos take at least 1.5 8-hour hobby days. I've been painting and modeling since 2001. My Warhound titan took at least 15 8-hour days to complete, when I sat down and added up time spent building, pinning, gluing, removing mold lines, painting, and basing. I'm not an amateur and it's the FW model.

I won't say his titan looked like crap. As I said earlier, I was impressed with it. BIt is severely lacking in detail, though. Also, it's unpainted. If you're going to scratch build something so that you can use D-Weapons, at least paint it. A blanket statement like "He spent 3 days making it, so he should get to play" doesn't fly with me, either.

As someone who was at the Apoc event mentioned, the Titans were very well constructed in the amount of time given. When someone spends time scratchbuilding any model and it doesn't look like poo they should be rewarded for their effort.
The main battle board looked better than anything I've seen in any Big book or Codex. And was a treat to play on.

Spending money on a FW unit should not make it indestructible nor any more of a real model than any other one on the table. Afterall we are playing an apoc game where things tend to die in mass or go nuclear every turn.

That being said 545 or as he's better now known as BB was going to be a problem at some point or another. I mean this is the same guy who almot cries and throws a tantrum when a terrmie fails a 2+ save. Even if the paper titan didn't blow up the FW titan anything killing it would have probably caused the same reaction.

I think I'm gonna have to run a tournament where each models must be 80% scratch built. No painted models allowed and a prize goes to the most creative use of toilet paper tubes...


We'll call it Papocalypse....

 StormK wrote:
I think I'm gonna have to run a tournament where each models must be 80% scratch built. No painted models allowed and a prize goes to the most creative use of toilet paper tubes...


We'll call it Papocalypse....

I would totally participate in a contest where they gave a routine item and the goal was to turn it into an amazing wargaming mini.

The tatertitan builds are amazing and fun.

IGotBodied wrote:
That being said 545 or as he's better now known as BB was going to be a problem at some point or another. I mean this is the same guy who almot cries and throws a tantrum when a terrmie fails a 2+ save. Even if the paper titan didn't blow up the FW titan anything killing it would have probably caused the same reaction.

It seems the biggest issue was 545.

nkelsch wrote:

 StormK wrote:
I think I'm gonna have to run a tournament where each models must be 80% scratch built. No painted models allowed and a prize goes to the most creative use of toilet paper tubes...


We'll call it Papocalypse....

I would totally participate in a contest where they gave a routine item and the goal was to turn it into an amazing wargaming mini.

The tatertitan builds are amazing and fun.

I would make Deff Dreads made out of onions and potatoes!

Time to start a new thread about scratch builds...

 StormK wrote:
I think I'm gonna have to run a tournament where each models must be 80% scratch built. No painted models allowed and a prize goes to the most creative use of toilet paper tubes...


We'll call it Papocalypse....

I would enormously enjoy participating in an event or contest where everyone is given a random box of parts with which they are to assemble their models, and the "parts" are things like paper towel rolls, empty bottless, beer caps, etc etc.

Beerkeg Gargant anyone?

And What about killa kans made from actual cans? But really people seem to be forgetting the first rule of Apok. To have fun. I have built a card stock Warlord and well its level of detail may not have been near forge world it did take me a long time to make. I have actually built and painted a Stormlord in less time then it took to make the titan so well yes the "paid" for titan may take more work don't take away from anyone who wants to build their own rather then fork over five Benjamin to buy a model they may well never actually get to use on the table. I still have not found chance to use my storm Lord on the table top. And what if the Titan in question had of been a warlord with that level of detail? There is not official model for it but there are rules. Would you forbid that out of principle assuming it was painted?


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And back to the scratch build stuff you can get enough parts to make an army of ork walkers from your average college dinning hall. Plastic cups along with plastic , forks ,knives and spoons and a good mek boy could make an army of deff dreads.

And "nerd elitism" rears it's head again. It makes me wonder why I even delve into these threads, and am glad that half the people who argue things on here are nowhere near for me to ever have to socialize about the hobby with/play against.

So what if someone is butthurt that they spend tons of money on a Forgeworld model and somebody else used a bunch of effort to scratchbuild the same thing? That doesn't make them the only one capable of being the "cool guy" at the scene, only the most pitiful when they whine using that as a reason.

The same reasoning would then prove that a player's "Rhino with Forgeworld doors and details" is more legitimate than my stock version, because they spent more money on it to crow about. Is that true? NOPE, because we are playing a game that gives combat values to army men.

It's supposed to be a fun experience to play 40K with other people that are using the games rules to play fair, with everything else around that being cool, fun things to add to the experience.

Would I play against a papercraft or scratchbuild Warhound titan? Hell yes, I would, and if he used templates to do it, I would ask the guy if I can have a copy to make my own and share the fun!

Ah I duuno Grimm, not many people took the paper guy to task here, infact most people imo were supportive of the effort and time spent on it.
I'd have no problem with it either, especially in Apoc where as someone mentioned rule #1 is: FUN

Yeah, but I have read every other paper/scratchbuild thread since I've been around here. They all end up being about how Forgeworld models are the most legitimate, because they are expensive and take tons of time to build and paint, and how scratchbuilders and papercrafters are trying to horn in on the game with something inexpensive and cheaply thrown together.

Believe me, I wholly support all the people that love playing the game for the fun of it, and like to see others show up with something cool and inventive to play with and show off.

Cool

I think the paper titan is brilliant when I saw it, I think what some people have to understand is that some people really cannot afford an £800 Titan from FW, I mean I would love a Chaos Reaver Titan but if I tried to buy one it would take me at least 4+ years to get one, and even then no one plays Apoc events at my FLGS so it would be a waste of time unfortunately, but my main point is that for some people, if they want it but cant afford it the paper route is where they will go and I support this, for me it dosnt matter about skill as long as you tell me where the weapons are then im all for it.

Either way the titan looks fantastic .

I wonder if anyone would argue against a Warhound titan built out of Games Workshop 40k paper box sets. Clearly it's 100% 40k product.

Rooofl, using their template, brilliant

Now based off the pictures provided I see a reason why someone might get upset. The detail level isnt very high and could use a lot more work. GRANTED if this was an on going project just in the early stages then there is reason to side with the papertitan. If at the next event is shows up with more detail and better paint then hey good for you. WIP work should be allowed, as long as it is progressing over time.

THAT SAID, no one should get their panties in a bunch over loosing a model in a game. I'd like to remind us all we are pushing little plastic army men around a table, rolling dice, and yelling 'pew pew' at each other and calling it war. Perspective is key.


I HAVE in the past build several paperstock titans and sold them. It isvery possible with plasticard and rods to make details and little additions that make the papercraft seem very real. Add a good paint job and some weathering and you get a reasonable model that is more then tabletop standard. It on average takes me 3 weeks of on and off work to make and paint a titan. Sadly I have no pictures on hand.

The only thing I could possibly see a problem to gripe with with is that the paper titan is unpainted. But that's only because I detest unpainted armies, and would say that of any army or prominent model that's just being fielded as bare plastic and metal.

It wouldn't stop me at all from playing against it, though. Especially if the guy was using it "in progress' and ended up painting and detailing it. At the end of the day it's just a 1-foot tall gaming pawn with a set of stats, after all, no matter what it costs. The real meat of the hobby, for me at least, is what you do to make the pawn something personalized and unique to you, not what you spent on it or what it's made of.

I'm supportive of the Rule of Cool, but with a much lower bar. basically if after my first look at it I want to get a closer look it can play. you said 545 was admiring the paper titan beforehand so I think he can't complain about it after