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I've been reading a few of the discussions on here about GW and whether gaming in general is going down the pan. it has been really eye opening and interesting to read all the different points of view.

My interest in all this stems from a discussion my buddy and i had about setting up our own gaming centre and wondered what it was that people really want from one.

Our thoughts were to have a good sized gaming hall with high quality gaming boards and terrain for several systems. We also considered the viability of an on site shop to buy miniatures etc from. Would an on site cafe bar/ food outlet be of interest to games? Would people be willing to pay to use tables and if so what would an acceptable rate be. Currently at my local gaming club we pay £4 for 4 hours of gaming so my views on price may be somewhat off the main tack!

Give me your thoughts on this as it may sway our decision to look into this more and get a centre up and running.

You need people...

You can have the highest quality, largest centre with the best prices and miniatures, but nobody will go there if nobody else does.

 BlapBlapBlap wrote:
You need people...

You can have the highest quality, largest centre with the best prices and miniatures, but nobody will go there if nobody else does.

And this helped the man how?

I don't know, I was explaining what I would need in a gaming venue, as per the question.

A good amount of regular gamers, pleasant staff. Enough room to game and a good selection of the things one need for gaming. Oh and good ventilation!

Somewhere which is central. And open late for people with real jobs. Food and drink. It needs to be like the gaming place in Southend (but I can't remember the name) but Southend is a pain to get to IMO .......good luck lads

I'd go on a road trip to the dedicated gaming venues in the UK. Off the top of my head they are:

Firestorm Games in Cardiff
Eye of the Storm in Mansfield (was part of Maelstrom Games, still exists as a venue)
The Northwest Gaming Centre in Manchester
and if course Warhammer World

All offer an on site store, gaming clubs and refreshments. All have good to excellent terrain and plenty of boards.

The best venue in my mind is Warhammer World, the bar (Bugman's) serves good beer and good food, the terrain is excellent, the tables are excellent the event staff are both good fun people and organised.

As far as I know none of the venues charge for casual gaming, they make thier money at events and through the shop. WW obviously is not playing on a level field with the others on this but still charges a premium for it's events, which enough people are willing to pay to fill their events.

 Trondheim wrote:
Oh and good ventilation!

Swinging by my FLGS during their last RPGA day reminded me how important that is. The employees there like to say, "By late morning, the meat starts to spoil".

Location is important, but if you are good, people will make the trip. My FLGS is about a half hour away, and some of the people who show up at tournaments drive more then twice as far as I do.

A friendly store, with good people. This is hard to manage, but is important.

Tables with terrain. If you don't offer more then someone's kitchen table, odds are they won't make the trip.

Cost is tricky. I understand you need to make money to keep the lights on, but the hobby is already expensive. Why should I pay you when I can go elsewhere? I pay a $5 entry fee for my FLGS's tournaments. It's a nominal fee, provides some prizes for the top players (handed out as store credit). For me it ensures I get 3 games in on my one saturday a month I make the trip up. I'm not sure I'd pay for a random pickup game. I have a table with terrain in my basement. Opponents are harder to find, which is why I value the gang at my FLGS.

Times are tight. If you are asking for my money, you better be giving me something in return.

Beer.

Besides that, i second good ventilation. There are 3 places on Long Island. One is full of card games and some wargaming. One doesn't give discounts and smells bad. And one doesnt have many wargamers but tons of people playing RPGS and board games.

I guess you need to create a nice mix and that might be location dependent. I would never go to place that charged something to get in. I think consistency is worth remembering. If you have a plan research it and focus on it. Give it time to build and stay on target. I hate places that move with the winds of change to quickly.

I would also try to set up multiple different game systems at the same time. Give people the chance to watch different games. Maybe they will want to start 2 armies and such.

and Beer!

Food and drink is a must.

I actually looked into something similar myself at one point so here are the thinks I came up with that I thought was very good:

1) Large room, you need at least 6 6x4 tables plus a few smaller ones. depending on what you are charging per table you may need much more than this to make a profit.
2) Have a themed night every night of the week for a different game - save a couple of tables for people who don't want to play the themed stuff.
3) Selling miniatures might work, but honestly most people know they can get them cheaper online so if you don't really want a shop then go all out game centre
4) Provide lockers that people can store their minis in to save them having to cart them to/from the club, you could even charge a small fee (£5 a month) for the locker key
5) Plenty of terrain, and the terrain need to be better than they could use at home so you might need to fork some money out to get some made if you're not an expert at that.
6) If you can serve alcohol, my own research said that this would be a big seller - either way make sure you have some nights that are over 18 only. With the pub trade the way it is you might even be able to get an old pub which would make this easier
7) Allow booking of tables, but make sure there is always some tables free for people to walk in and play on or people will stop coming.
8) It may not be your cup of tea, but play fairly bland and quite and generic music, headbanging music blasting out at an ear spliting volume will just put people off - even if you do think it's the best thing ever.

For costs I think £1 an hour is reasonable, people could have an entire evening of gaming for £5 which is fine - the tricky point would be can you charge each person or charge per table.

I'm sure I had more but I can't think where they are.

The most important thing for me is definitely an active community. If there's no one to play, and you end up taking someone to game with you might as well be playing at home.

Second, ties in with the first I suppose, but regular tournaments are a good thing in my opinion, especially in a place you're familiar with.

Third, a good selection of scenery. I'm not talking big display pieces, I mean like basic stuff. Trees. Buildings. Walls. Nothing is worse than turning up and the only scenery that is available is the latest Games Workshop Skull Throne Of Skulls Skulls And More Skulls and a Skyshield landing pad.

Active, considerate community is a must.

Not mentioned above, but something that I really appreciate is a well lit, open spot.

I game with my 2 kids and the last place I want to take them is a small cramped spot that is dark and full of rude people.

 WaaaaghLord wrote:
The most important thing for me is definitely an active community. If there's no one to play, and you end up taking someone to game with you might as well be playing at home.

Second, ties in with the first I suppose, but regular tournaments are a good thing in my opinion, especially in a place you're familiar with.

Third, a good selection of scenery. I'm not talking big display pieces, I mean like basic stuff. Trees. Buildings. Walls. Nothing is worse than turning up and the only scenery that is available is the latest Games Workshop Skull Throne Of Skulls Skulls And More Skulls and a Skyshield landing pad.

Active community is something we would definitely look to create - being near Liverpool myself I think we have a good community of gamers in the north west which may be interested in coming to a dedicated gaming venue.

Tournaments are definitely something we would do - I've run a couple of these already so have some experience in doing this.

As for scenery, would people want a range of GW and nonGW scenery? Our thoughts were yes.

I wonder whether feature tables, a bit like those from WW may interest people.

Whereabouts is it you're on about setting up your gaming centre mate? I'd be up for coming in for a few games once it opens!

Food = Good. But make sure that there is a place to eat it away from the table!

Events - campaigns and introductory scenarios. Bring new folks into the hobby.

Knowledgeable folks running those events and getting new folks started in a hobby that will (hopefully) be with them for decades to come.

Friendly folks to game with - if somebody is causing problems then talk to them.

A decent mix of terrain available.

A decent mix of games and types of games - RPGs, fantasy wargaming, SF wargaming, steampunk wargaming, and historical gaming.

The Auld Grump

The store needs these factors.

1. A floor plan that allows people to be comfortable whether playing or hobbying. For example in our store there is a large metal support pole on the middle of the store. when the gaming table were set next to this pole it was a nuisance now that the hobbying area is beside it, it has become a back rest.

2. Believable varied terrain. It needs some obviously 40k and some obviously fantasy terrain. Also some hills forests and rivers.

3. A Patient Manager. Who is willing to stock what sells.

4. Good people. You can handke TFG =s by either A beating them or B ignoring them.

5. Blackjack and Hookers.

6. Sorry the Bender reference is obligatory.

If you offer to store anything belonging to anybody else on site (eg by having lockers)

think about insurance, or have a clear and enforcable 'we are not responsible for any losses policy'

you'll need to go to a lawyer for appropriate wording & way of doing this, just sticking up a small sign is NOT enough, you don't want to be on the reciving end of a missing foregworld army claim

Pleasant people. I'd rather play in a basement with nice folks, than a warehouse decked out with every style of table, ex, ex, with TFG 's and git's

I like organized play. If you can provide space and organize play in such a way to attract gamers and keep people playing which makes the most of their time, you will attract people. Know what kind of gaming to expect and what point value to bring.

If I can show up at 9 and know I can get 3 games in or play a well run mega battle, I am drawn to that store. If I have to show up and spend an hour hunting an opponent, or do the legwork of finding people locally to schedule times, that can be tiresome. Nothing is worse than showing up to play a game and find no one playing your system or not having the right points value.

Organized play is key IMHO. People appreciate it.

My gaming club is in a pub. 40k and a pint anyone?

 edbradders wrote:
My gaming club is in a pub. 40k and a pint anyone?

Where do you play. I want to stop buy or move there

 edbradders wrote:
My gaming club is in a pub. 40k and a pint anyone?

I have the same luck here in virginia. Before I started playing 40k The local hobby shop closed down, and the local club i play with got into a discussion with the bar next door to let us use their tables for free on tuesdays. They have 7x4 wood panels they use to cover their pool tables which we borrow and place on top of their dinner tables to play on (we bring and share terrain and mats as needed). Thats how I saw them one time when I went drinking with friends and finally got into 40k.

Going off from my experience, definitely a regular group of players will be a good draw. Most everything else you would need to spend more money (nice terrain, multiple tables, food and drinks) but a regular crowd will be what keeps business going. Bonus if they are helpful and not TFGs. People can deal with some issues if they like the crowd and the staff.
E.g.
Theres 2 gaming shops in the area. 1 is a small fairly new (opened 2 years ago) the other has been around longer with their own commercial building. The new shop mostly caters to MTG and a small boardgame/rpg crowd. The bigger one does wargaming and sells comics also. But because of certain staff members (and quite a few TFGs) a lot of people prefer to take their business to the smaller shop, which has a friendlier atmosphere. It always ends up being packed at night, where as the big store where its only wargamers who play, and barely go over 10 if ever.

Tldr; good crowd, good staff and never tolerate TFGs (the small shop has had to ban 2 guys for being excessively rude AFTER they have been warned multiple times)

A few things that I would look for:

1) Professional and clean. If you're running a venue for the public, it should be enticing to even people who don't play the game. My FLGS has a 'gaming area' which also doubles as their garage/stock area/dumping grounds. I don't want to see your trash.
Your area should be well lit, well ventilated, and clean.

2) Cater to your community, not yourself. If you love Flames of War but no-one in your area plays, its pretty useless setting up multiple FoW tables. If you cater to mostly 40k people, have mostly 40k tables, no matter how much you like/dislike the game.
You can however encourage new games to start by providing some suitably generic yet useful terrain for that scale.

3) Good terrain and lots of it. This is the one thing that will stop me playing at my house and get me to your store. If you have a permanent area and don't have to move stuff that often, I'd suggest really going all out on some signature tables. If you need to pack away, you're probably better off going with sturdier stuff. The GW terrain is a bit pricey, but is rock solid and will last you ten times longer than something made of foamcore if you need to pack/unpack it.
Think of some really themed tables; not just a desert world, its an Imperial prometheum refinery. Its not just a 'generic fantasy city, its a Cygnarian port city.

4) Food and drinks are next on the list. Depending what your budget/scale is, you can go quite a way here. At least provide cans of soda and chocolate bars. Also, serviettes and straws, so people don't get greasy fingers on your models/terrain.

5) Well organised. Have one person dedicated to organising game for people, and running good events. I've been to clubs where there will be 3-4 people 'looking for a game of 40k' but sitting around and doing nothing. Get someone to inquire what they want to do and try to set up a game for them. Regular campaigns can be good also if you can put in the effort to run them well.

6) Provide gaming aids. Try to have some dice, tape measures, templates, objective markers available for everyone. No games will suffer if someone forgets their flamer template. For your most popular game systems you might even want to provide the rulebooks and a starter army in case some interested non-player comes by.

7) Good hours. Work out your demographic and when you can best cater to them. If your customers are kids, they might want to play 4-9 on weekdays or 10-3 on weekends. A person with a 'real job' might want to play 7-midnight on weeknights instead. Try to get a venue where you can accommodate your demographic.

8) Insurance. (It might be different in your country, but where I'm from) you will need insurance to cover whatever goes on in your venue. If someone's stuff gets stolen or someone gets injured under your watch, you may be liable.

9) I'm not sure if this is a store for you or a gaming venue, but but a lot of research into your store area if you decide to go that route. Personally, I'd stock your 3 major lines deep, stock complementary products and peripherals deep, and have the bare minimum of other ranges.

I'll tell you what I hate. Is turning up somewhere new and not knowing what the hell I'm doing or what to expect, and then getting there and making some kind of n00b error cause I didn't know the system/etiquette. I remember going to place, and getting there an hour before anyone else, because the website gave the wrong times, and then ended up waiting in the wrong room (mehhhh).

I think organisers can sometimes be a bit egocentric about locations. If there are no signs or people around to ask, then I personally feel a bit intimidated opening doors, and going up stairs, in a strange place. I'm never really sure if I'm in the right place, or I'm about to be arrested for trespassing. Little things like signs and info on the website can make a big difference. I think having a system for greeting new people is also nice. Gamers aren't always the most confident people socially. I think it helps new people to feel welcome, and vets to feel confident getting new people started, if their is some kind of system. Even if it is just something simple like showing them where things are, and where they can play, and introducing them to everyone, maybe finding them their first game.

captain collius wrote:
4. Good people. You can handke TFG =s by either A beating them or B ignoring them.

I agree with the need for good people, but the reaction above exactly the opposite of what I'd like to see. Too many organizers, owners, etc. seem to lack the ability to deal with TFG's appropriately. They either ignore them which creates a negative environment, or they blow up and go ballistic on the TFG at some point.

A start up club/venue should discuss ahead of time with it's employees rational ways to speak/deal with TFG's before they become a problem. Ignoring them, hoping the patrons will deal with them or waiting until they're unbearable and "beating" them are not acceptable.

Smacks wrote:I'll tell you what I hate. Is turning up somewhere new and not knowing what the hell I'm doing or what to expect, and then getting there and making some kind of n00b error cause I didn't know the system/etiquette. I remember going to place, and getting there an hour before anyone else, because the website gave the wrong times, and then ended up waiting in the wrong room (mehhhh).

I think organisers can sometimes be a bit egocentric about locations. If there are no signs or people around to ask, then I personally feel a bit intimidated opening doors, and going up stairs, in a strange place. I'm never really sure if I'm in the right place, or I'm about to be arrested for trespassing. Little things like signs and info on the website can make a big difference. I think having a system for greeting new people is also nice. Gamers aren't always the most confident people socially. I think it helps new people to feel welcome, and vets to feel confident getting new people started, if their is some kind of system. Even if it is just something simple like showing them where things are, and where they can play, and introducing them to everyone, maybe finding them their first game.

Agreed. The "secret handshake" game club is overrated. Proper directions and instructions on the website and posted at the club are really important. Both to regulate the venue and to make newbies feel more comfortable in an unfamiliar environment.

Stranger83 510337 5330089 null
4) wrote: Provide lockers that people can store their minis in to save them having to cart them to/from the club, you could even charge a small fee (£5 a month) for the locker key

^^^^THIS^^^^^

A stonkingly good idea there.

Koppo wrote:

Stranger83 510337 5330089 null
4) wrote: Provide lockers that people can store their minis in to save them having to cart them to/from the club, you could even charge a small fee (£5 a month) for the locker key

^^^^THIS^^^^^

A stonkingly good idea there.

There's a club around here that has a bank of 10 to 15 lockers (around 1'x1'x2') that can be rented by the month. As far as I know they are always rented, even though the fee is something like 15 to 25 bucks a month.

If the FLGS has the space, it's a great idea, though you probably have to charge alot more than 5gbp ($7) to make it worthwhile to give the space to lockers instead of for sale merchandise.

I've been going back and forth on this myself now for almost 10 years, and to be honest - still haven't decided it would be a good idea (the math checks out, just not sure it is something I would want to get into). Here are a few of the things which I have in my notes though.

1) Location. Very important for retail, less important for this. You want it to be easy for people to get to with good parking - but it isn't too likely that most of your customers will be stumbling in off the street. Obviously, you will want the neighborhood to be safe enough that people won't worry if they need to park their car for a few hours while gaming.

2) Structure. Nice open commercial property is ideal. Plenty of room that you can use to reconfigure tables for special events and spread apart tables so people can get around them easily. Many gamers are on the larger side of things - so you don't want to cram them in where they are on top of each other while moving around a game table to take stock of things. Many old restaurants, warehouses and retail locations are ideal - converted single family houses generally are not a good choice.

In the same consideration you have restrooms and lighting. You want to light up things so that everything can be seen quite well - either with spot lighting over tables or general overhead lighting that illuminates the common areas. If you are going to have an area set aside for painting/modeling - those areas need even more lighting of good quality.

On the restroom side of thing - you will want to ensure that it is more than capable of handling the throughput. In most cases this will mean an actual commercial setup with men's and women's restrooms and the various fixtures that go with them. You will run into various code and regulatory issues with this as well regarding things like handicap accessibility and the number of fixtures for the capacity of the structure.

Regulatory issues. As I mentioned above, there are regulations that you will bump into. In the US, one of the big ones is the American's with Disabilities Act. This sets out things like the number of handicap parking spots needed outside, access ramps, doors, bathroom fixtures, space between tables...rather extensive. If you are looking at making it a proper commercial activity, you will want to make sure you are on the right side of things to start with as the various fines and other issues can cripple a small business later.

3) Food and alcohol. Both of these are great for gaming. You want to make sure that you can segregate things well enough. You don't want condensation from a frosty mug or grease from a burger or fries to be dripping on a table or miniatures. This will take away gaming space, but provide something for people while they are waiting their turn on the tables. You will also need to have a proper kitchen in order to prepare any foods and a bar for things like the keg and taps, refrigerators and all the rest.

In addition to the space consideration - you have more regulations. Food preparation and serving areas are subject to health department inspections, alcohol requires liquor licenses and the various age verification requirements that may be in play. You can avoid some of that by offering only prepackaged foods and no alcohol or operating under a BYOB license (bring your own beer - specifics vary by locality).

4) Spectator/waiting areas. Chances are good that you will have people watching or people waiting for their turn. You want to make sure that you provide an area for them to hang out without being in the way of the actual games being played. This can be tied easily enough to the food/alcohol. You want to make sure the seating is comfortable and plentiful. Something a bit like a coffee house where people can relax and read rules and another area that works for painting and modeling.

5) Hours. Open when people game - not when they work. Some locations actually prohibit businesses from being open late or require them to be open during certain hours during the day. Make sure that you can be open during evenings and weekends when people actually have time to game.

Now on to actual gaming related stuff...

6) As many tables you can fit of a reasonable size. 4x6 tables would be ideal - though 4x4 would allow you to fit several more tables in the same space. You want to ensure they are sturdy enough to support the weight of a 300 some odd pound gamer who leans up against them, space on the edges for "dead" models, reserves, rulebooks and the like. You will probably want these to be custom built, as most readily available tables are either the wrong size or too fragile for gaming.

If you plan on doing larger events (like Apocalypse size games) you will want them to be moveable in order to accommodate the larger sized games.

7) Painting space. Since a lot of people do enjoy painting in groups - offering space where people can paint. You will want to consider providing something like a commercial fume hood for doing things like priming miniatures in the back, as otherwise you run the risk of some schmuck spraying down models in a back alley or restroom thinking that the exhaust fans will handle it. Some manner of brush cleaning area as well as storage of paints and other tools when they are not in use. A separate fee can be used to allow free access to paints, while patrons provide their own brushes.

8) Durable terrain. You want to make sure that anything which you provide can withstand the abuses of daily use. Keep in mind that different games will have different requirements - whether it is the ability to go inside buildings to different scales for things like 15mm and microarmor type games.

In the same train of thought - you will need to have storage that is easy to find things for and capable of storing everything safely and securely.

9) Storage of patrons "stuff". Since you want to encourage people to come back again - having the ability to put their books, armies, dice and other stuff into a secure storage space is ideal. Lockers with shelves or drawers that allow storage of all the related materials would be ideal - you want to make sure that there is enough to handle your projected membership.

10) Comfortable floors in the gaming area. Might have been a good idea to put this with the general structure information - but I have it in the gaming section of my notes. If you have ever spent 8 hours standing on hard concrete playing in a tournament - your joints begin to ache. This is even more common for us old guys. Having flooring which is better suited for standing is a good idea, and generally has an added benefit of cushioning models that take a dive off a table. You can use carpet (bad for clean ups), rubber matts (they can slip around a bit) or something like cork flooring which is fairly comfortable to stand on and easy to clean should someone spill a soda or just after general wear and tear.

11) Aesthetics. Things which make it look good. Artwork on the walls, secure display cases where you can have good looking armies on show, various props and paraphernalia like suits of armor, swords and what not to set the scene.

Optional neat things...

12) Wifi. Not nearly as optional now, but easy enough to provide. With tablets and laptops carrying many rules now - it is something you should be able to provide.

13) Scheduling site. Again, pretty straight forward. A website that has a calender of events at a bare minimum. Adding in the ability for people to go ahead and actually schedule games before they show up would be even better. There are a lot of out of packages that provide this functionality.

14) Electronics. Music, movies and the like. There are various issues relating to public performances of DVDs - but you can have TVs showing different broadcast channels (specific laws will vary). With a little bit of bodgery, you can station cameras over game tables and have them put up on TV screens for things like tournaments. The cost is minimal - but if you have a crowded tournament, it will be appreciated in that you won't have a bunch of people crowded around the tables for the final rounds.

15) Wholesale license. While you might not want to have a full on store, having the ability to do special orders for members is pretty easy to do. A dozen or so people will provide a fairly steady stream of special orders going out.

16) Minigames. When people are waiting for their turn playing a proper wargame, you want them to have something to do. Another way to help deal with this is to supply a variety of minigames. Chess, checkers and the like are pretty simple to provide and can keep people occupied.

How much should it cost?

Always the kicker... A lot will depend on the specifics of where you set up. I have been in some places where they piggy back off an existing business so their overhead costs are greatly reduced. Those can offer much lower prices. If it is a stand alone facility though, you need to cover your rent, taxes, salaries, insurance, utilities and all the rest. These costs can add up pretty quickly, and you need to ensure that you can cover them all as well as make a bit extra to squirrel away for things like replacing terrain and maybe even retiring one day.

The various add-on sales can help with things (food/alcohol sales, paint club fees, miniature sales) but the bulk of the income will probably be coming from the gaming venue itself. If you look at things which could be considered comparable, like pool halls, patrons pay per game to use the tables. A small fee per game played is reasonable for most people. Offer up additional things like a few hundred dollars or so per year membership for unlimited access (barring tournaments) to game and paint. Couple that with a 25% discount on special orders and it should be enough to entice people to join up.

A lot of the specific local issues and general business issues will apply to any such venture. You want to make sure you have a good insurance policy to cover you for losses due to things like fires and theft as well as liability. You will need to deal with any labor laws and their related expenses. Various regulations related to food service, bars and other businesses may need to be dealt with.

That is the short of it. Most the other stuff is specific to setting up a business in the US, as well as different designs for things like the tables and what not.

Eilif wrote:

Koppo wrote:

Stranger83 510337 5330089 null
4) wrote: Provide lockers that people can store their minis in to save them having to cart them to/from the club, you could even charge a small fee (£5 a month) for the locker key

^^^^THIS^^^^^

A stonkingly good idea there.

There's a club around here that has a bank of 10 to 15 lockers (around 1'x1'x2') that can be rented by the month. As far as I know they are always rented, even though the fee is something like 15 to 25 bucks a month.

If the FLGS has the space, it's a great idea, though you probably have to charge alot more than 5gbp ($7) to make it worthwhile to give the space to lockers instead of for sale merchandise.

True, though remember that you don't need a massive gym size locker, at most the "tallest" you're gonna need it to be is around 100mm and you could probably mainly get away with 50mm high lockers, that gives you a lot of lockers for a small space. In my head when I was planning this they were more like security deposit boxes than lockers, I figured it was better to charge £5 and have people with loads need to rent 2 than it was to charge £10 and have most people have half empty lockers, but this is all stuff you could work out yourself once you've done the market research of the area better and know more about where you'll actually be setting up shop.

I do think it's important to decide if its a store with gaming space or a pure gaming venue - personally I think all gaming stores are doomed to failure as you just can't compete with the internet, but others might think differently. I'd just scrap the idea of selling minis at all and focus full time on maximising the space of the venue side of things, which is something that you simply cannot get online cheaper.

1 Thing about location, it's all very good getting a large space with a car park on the outskirts of town (and indeed I recommend this and is definately the way to go) but that does leave the problem of telling people you are there - another area where not selling stuff may help as stores would, possibly, be more likely to promote you.